Jaguar Primal Rage vs. 32x Primal Rage

[Lost Dragon]

Back on topic.I know Probe had the Ps1 as the leading platform when handling the 32 Bit conversions, with graphics and code being ported to the Saturn later.They claimed the sprites would be roughly 80% the size of the coin-op's.

Regarding the MD version:Game was due for a 24 Meg caqrt, biggest issues in terms of the conversion was with compressing the coin-op's backdrops to fit.Sauron's Cove being the real bastard as it were, as if they featured the moving sky from the coin-op, it'd cause too much slow-down on the main sprites, so redrew the sky from scratch adding a definite horizon etc.

So at least there you can see the reasoning bejhind why comprimises were made.

[Austin]

 

Back on topic.I know Probe had the Ps1 as the leading platform when handling the 32 Bit conversions, with graphics and code being ported to the Saturn later.They claimed the sprites would be roughly 80% the size of the coin-op's.

 

It may very well have been the other way around. The PS1 version is missing tons of animation and feels very choppy. The Saturn one has a lot more animation frames and feels very smooth in comparison. The character sprites are huge in both though.

[racerx]

The arcade was the obnoxious format that was so popular towards the decline of the arcade business in America. White cabinet, flat joystick area, super loud speakers blasting... A brand new machine,

 

It wasn't a dedicated machine, then.

 

Edited December 30, 2014 by racerx

[Lost Dragon]

I'd assume the extra Ram the Saturn had allowed for the extra animation frames and thus smoother animation as a result.2D fighters on PS1 always seemed to suffer in comparison to same game on Saturn, with longer loading times, rougher animation.Maybe Probe simply took advantage of the Saturn hardware when using the PS1 Primal Rage Code?.

[Lost Dragon]

Side note, but Probe's conversions brought up, am i right in thinking 32X MK2 was considered 'dissapointing' by many?.

 

Larger sprites, far better sound, massively improved backdrops etc over the 24 Meg (?) MD version, clocking in on a 32 Meg cart (?), but still ran slower than the SNES version?.

 

Or was this not the case?.

[Lost Dragon]

Also, i was lucky enough to interview one of the Probe coders responsible for both the MD and MCD conversions of Mortal Kombat:

http://www.grumpyoldgamers.co.uk/index.php?/topic/2658-paul-carruthers-interview/

Interesting to note the issues encountered bringing the game to MCD and more so fact Paul was never a fan of the original coin-op and struggled with it and needed assistance from Midway to get job done.

This really does echo the point i made elsewhere, where it's simply standard for conversions or games based on films/books etc to be handed to coders who have no love or even 1st hand experience of, the very source material they are working from.

Very much doubt any real thought was given to Jaguar CD version of Primal Rage, other than Jag CD owners were so starved of games as it was, they'd be grateful they even saw a release at all, by Publishers.

[NeoGeoNinja]

It may very well have been the other way around. The PS1 version is missing tons of animation and feels very choppy. The Saturn one has a lot more animation frames and feels very smooth in comparison. The character sprites are huge in both though.

 

My thoughts were the very same.

 

I'd assume the extra Ram the Saturn had allowed for the extra animation frames and thus smoother animation as a result.2D fighters on PS1 always seemed to suffer in comparison to same game on Saturn, with longer loading times, rougher animation.Maybe Probe simply took advantage of the Saturn hardware when using the PS1 Primal Rage Code?.

 

Seemingly, anything ported/coded for Saturn STRICTLY in 2D was a cinch on Saturn compared to PS1, for the reasons you explained. That was the Saturn's saving grace tbh in those years. HAD the PS1 been equipped with the same abilities (re: RAM) with the same ability to extend the RAM capabilities, then the Saturn would have been clearly inferior. However, this isn't the case, so the Saturn destroys the PS1 at 2D when directly compared. The PS1 is still mightily capable at 2D itself though (Rapid Reload, Guilty Gear, KOF 95... superior versions of Donpachi & Dodonpachi > Saturn versions) but struggles when the requirements step up a gear!

[NeoGeoNinja]

Interesting to note the issues encountered bringing the game to MCD and more so fact Paul was never a fan of the original coin-op and struggled with it and needed assistance from Midway to get job done.

This really does echo the point i made elsewhere, where it's simply standard for conversions or games based on films/books etc to be handed to coders who have no love or even 1st hand experience of, the very source material they are working from

 

First off; As always, great interview!

 

Secondly; I just want to touch on what I have quoted from you above vs what Paul ACTUALLY said:

 

-

 

Q)Next up was Mega Drive Mortal Kombat, same question again really,

ever play/fan of genre? and regarding both...were you given source

code/actual coin-op during development?

 

I wasn’t really a fan of coin-ops. I got the original source code form Williams which was very useful. I

was able to develop a similar system to what they were using and the whole process was made

much easier than it otherwise would have been. We also had the original game graphics which

Gary Liddon converted down to Megadrive size and spec. I also had a coin-op in my house in order to get

all the nuances of gameplay just right. Sadly I’m rubbish at fighting games but Williams sent me a

doctored version of the chips so that I could get to all the difficult parts of the game. They must have

despaired!

 

Q)Erm...you then turned down conversion of MK2 on MD choosing instead

to do Pagemaster on MD instead...any thoughts, in hindsight? :-)

 

Hindsight’s a wonderful thing isn’t it? Yes, it was a mistake to turn it down although I did have some

good reasons at the time.

 

-

 

...My point being, Paul NEVER stated (here) that he disliked the original game. Just that he wasn't a fan of arcade games in general (seemingly a computer gamer?) and wasn't any good at actual fighting games. It should also be noted, that whilst he wasn't a fan of arcade games and wasn't good at fighting games, MD MK1 was considered the best version at the time AND he regrets (in not so many words) not undertaking a similarly impressive job with the huge sequel, that was MKII.

 

Thirdly; and IIRC, this was (I read this all yesterday and then went out for NYE celebrations) this point was made by yourself in defense of Rebellions having NEVER studied the source material required (i.e. watching the Alien/Predator movies) PRIOR to setting about creating the game!

 

Seriously... BIG difference between some guy converting a pre-existing game and simply downscaling it as best/effectively as possible for a home platform VS creating a new license from scratch, having never studied the source material required, in an ambitious genre never before touched on by said devs on new, uncharted hardware territory.

[Lost Dragon]

It was my impression Paul was'nt the biggest fan of the coin-op, as he himself said he was rubbish at it, so not best choice of words on my original post :-) on my part, so in hindsight it would of been better had i said 'Paul perhaps was'nt as familar with the coin-op as he might have been' to handle the conversion.I left out the MK 2 part as i could only comment on the conversions he had done-MK on MD and MCD.

 

Also the pouint about Rebellion never having watched the Alien or Predator films prior to doing the game, well that's a whole different matter entirely, as according to other sources who worked on the game, it'd did'nt seem to matter as Rebellion, being the small team it was at this point, was busy with other key aspects of the game engine itself, i.e 'The Advanced Texture Manipulation' as they called it ( fast graphics movement in high resolution mode), running the game in 64,000 colours rather than 256, convincing ATARI to go with a FPS view point rather than simply adapt the 2D Side Scrolling

[Lost Dragon]

(cont) approach and this was also done on the earlier Lynx AVP game:

'As it happened, Images was happy with the idea of completely changing the script, so we both spent one week watching the Alien and Predator films, then started the month-long process of sending faxes back and forth with different ideas to try. Ultimately we came to the conclusion that the most interesting way of really representing the characters was to do it in the first person, with you being able to play as any of the three species: a Human, an Alien, or a Predator.'

So there seems to be a lot of confusion over just how much of a 'need' there was for Rebellion to have actually watched the films, let alone read any of the Dark Horse comics.IF, as i suspect they were handed the role of getting the game tech correct , given small team they were, the game ideas were being handled elsewhere.Job load shared between Rebellion in UK and Atari USA.

I've attempted to put questions to Rebellion over there EXACT involvement in Jaguar AVP...

[Lost Dragon]

(cont) but they never got back to me and i'm not wasting further time on them, when plenty of others are willing to chat.

Point i'm getting at is this, it was 'put' that perhaps Rebellion were not best suited to handle AVP, having not seen any of the films, what i'm saying is i wonder if they actually needed to, if the game design aspect was being handled 'off-site' as it were and, by using Paul as an example with MK, he was'nt 100% familar with the ins and outs of MK, but again there, he honestly did'nt need to be a fan of the coin-op or any good at it, as resources were provided tohim to get the job done.

We can speculate on how he'd of approached MK 2, just as we can how Rebellion would of done S.E version of AVP on Jaguar CD or, if claims are true, Beyond Games would of handled Jaguar AVP 2, had Atari not pulled plug on Jaguar etc.

Anywho, glad you liked the interview, lot more to come, 2015 will see them appearing in various places not seen in 2014, approached 3 more contacts yesterday.

[Lost Dragon]

Chased up a good few people i'd put questions to weeks ago, good responses from most, few nothing heard from, so may 'write-off' a few, such is nature of it.But as always, ANY lost Game or Atari related info that comes back in, that can help clear up 'established myths', will be shared with the community here.

 

It's just a question of playing the waiting game with all of it.....

[NeoGeoNinja]

'As it happened, Images was happy with the idea of completely changing the script, so we both spent one week watching the Alien and Predator films, then started the month-long process of sending faxes back and forth with different ideas to try. Ultimately we came to the conclusion that the most interesting way of really representing the characters was to do it in the first person, with you being able to play as any of the three species: a Human, an Alien, or a Predator.'

So there seems to be a lot of confusion over just how much of a 'need' there was for Rebellion to have actually watched the films, let alone read any of the Dark Horse comics.IF, as i suspect they were handed the role of getting the game tech correct , given small team they were, the game ideas were being handled elsewhere.Job load shared between Rebellion in UK and Atari USA.

 

I think, having a good understanding (on some level) of exactly what it is you are handling, either it be conceptually or in genre, offers a distinct advantage when delivering a quality product amongst a relatively small team.

 

The only byproduct of the development team seeing the A & P films would have impacted the final product positively. As you said, brainstorming was done back and forth. Back and forth means agreeing and disagreeing (etc), which, no doubt, potentially led to a better final product. Purely speculative perspective, of course.

[Lost Dragon]

Thing is as we all know an interview with just 1 person is going to give what they can remember, espically when your talking work 20 years plus, ago.I was lucky enough to put questions to 1 person at the time, via the RVG interview with Rebellion, but that was just 1 person from the UK side alone.

 

I've seen magazine interviews from 'the time' with people working the USA side of development, but..as recent examples in UK press prove, people often get miss-quoted (ie coder claimed to have worked on Starfox 2 SNES, yet game was canned years before he joined company :-) ). So there's elements of 'risk' involved just getting the info we have so far.

 

Case in point, both the 2 sources from Core i'm hoping can shed light on their claimed Jaguar plans are yet to get back to me, 1's been good as gold, saying it's so long ago, he needs more time, other? nothing heard from since inital contact.But both very busy people with very real lives.So i wait and hope something comes of the enquiry.

[Lost Dragon]

:-) Getting back on thread topic, i suppose i should get off me arse and see IF coders of Jag Primal Rage are approachable....

[Lost Dragon]

Sigh..right so Def. B.S by another UK magazine (cough..Mean Machines...) claiming PS1 was leading version (the more i look into claims UK mags i bought printed as 'fact' the more B.S i find...)...

It would appear the 2 guys from Probe who did the Jaguar CD version were initally handed the 3DO version, having done a decent enough job on that in the eyes of their masters :-) they were handed the job of converting it to Saturn and Jaguar CD.

They said limited Ram was a major issue on all 3 formats, as once they'd compiled the inital code, it clocked in at around 4MB and this without any of the sound or graphics code, let alone the 25 MB of stop-motion animation on the Dino's that had to go in.

Cue months of 'squeezing code and graphics to fit'.

There's S.F.A reason to keep any UK publication as a historical reference i feel at the moment, as what's printed goes again'st what people who worked on the ga,mes seem to say years later.

[Mr SQL]

All the versions of Primal Rage look pretty cool, but none seem to capture the 3D immersion effect in the original version, DinoWars:

 

The original achieved a 3D feel beyond it's time because you could step beyond the 2D fighting plane and walk off into the distance, interacting with distant objects and characters.

 

[Lost Dragon]

Right, i've 'approached' a memember of Probe, regarding possibility of 'chatting' about Jag CD version of Primal Rage, but to be brutally honest...even if i do get a reply, chances are, it'll be a case of...'I'm more than happy to chat, but it's honestly been so long ago, i honestly cannot remember, minds too hazy regarding it' type response (and chances are the Core guys will return similar answers..).

 

 

Which is, bloody fair enough, i mean i'm putting a 'niche' format question to these guys, who've worked on so much, in so many other places since then, chances of getting detailed insights gets rarer by the year.

 

If (as in case of Core) Jaguar projects abandoned early on, concept only, your not going to have it sticking in your mind and with Probe, if you were involved in 3 or more 'similar' versions, are you really going to remember a lot on the Jaguar CD version out of all of them?

 

Lets see what comes of all of the questions put....

[Rick Dangerous]

I've been finding the Jag CD Version of Primal Rage to be PLENTY good looking and playable

 

Still can't figure out how to eat my followers...

[Isgoed]

That move is different for each character of course, but is in general easy to execute.

 

Have you checked the PR moves list from The Atari Times?

[Rick Dangerous]

That move is different for each character of course, but is in general easy to execute.

 

Have you checked the PR moves list from The Atari Times?

 

Yes that is the only thing it doesn't mention. The manual only mentions that there is a stage towards the end where you have to try and eat the most followers, but from what i can remember you SHOULD be able to do it anytime...

[Isgoed]

Yes, you can eat humans anytime during a fight (when they're in front of you, that is), and this is a cool feature of Primal Rage

 

I've just checked the PR moves list on TAT and all the moves are shown there, including the "Eat Humans" move for each dinosaur.

 

Skip the manual, go straight to the Atari Times site.

[JagChris]

I've been finding the Jag CD Version of Primal Rage to be PLENTY good looking and playable

 

Still can't figure out how to eat my followers...

 

Don't get me wrong, its a beautiful game. And yes plenty playable and loads of fun. It's just not what it could of been.

[Agent X]

Exactly, whilst i'm not the worlds biggest Primal Rage fan (only home versions i have appear on Xbox/PS2 Retro Compilation discs etc), i did see the Sega versions in particular get a lot of WIP coverage in the UK press at the time, so it seemed a lot of resources allocated here, as huge market to tap into.

 

Regarding the Jaguar version, potential market wise, not only were you aiming for a niche system, but by putting it on CD your aiming for an even smaller market again (just how many Jaguar owners even had the CD add-on when game was released?).

 

From a commercial point of view, your not going to allocate any serious resources are you?

 

I've got mixed feelings on the matter of whether the game should have been on CD to begin with.

 

On one hand, you're right, that making the game CD-only is limiting the market compared to making a cartridge version. The market for cartridge games (compared to CD games) was always larger on the Jaguar--but the same could be also be said of other platforms like TurboGrafx-16 and Genesis. So why bother making any games on CD, when a cartridge will always have a larger potential audience?

 

On the other hand, if you're going to offer a CD attachment, you need to have appealing games to go with it. You want to offer some kind of "killer app" that makes gamers drool at the prospect...something that will make them want to rush out to buy the CD drive because it's really awesome and you just can't get a game like that on cartridge.

 

I'm sure that when Atari was planning the Jaguar CD, they wanted some cool must-have CD games. On paper, I'm sure Primal Rage seemed like a natural fit...it was a hot new arcade fighting game, and the prospect of vastly increased storage capacity would allow the graphics and sound to approach arcade quality at home in a way that you just couldn't do on cartridge.

 

Looking back at the actual product...the game really didn't need to be on CD. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Primal Rage on Jaguar CD, but (as some of the posts in this thread have said) it didn't turn out nearly as good as it could have. Other than maybe the music, there's virtually no justification for the game to be on CD at all. This particular game really should have been on cartridge, with other more data-intensive games instead being used to promote the CD format.

 

Case in point: The developers produced a new full-motion video intro sequence specifically for the CD versions of the game (PlayStation, Saturn, 3DO)...but it's absent from the Jaguar CD version! The FMV is one of the only differentiating factors for Primal Rage on CD, and yet the Jaguar programmers couldn't even be bothered to press it onto the disc!

 

The best solution would have been to produce the game on cartridge, and pack in a companion data CD. That way, all Jaguar owners could enjoy the game (with fast loading that the cartridge format could offer), but those who also had the Jaguar CD attachment could benefit from the added capacity (better music, FMV, maybe additional animation as well). I remember this was something that Jeff Minter wanted to do when Defender 2000 was in development.

 

The Jaguar was one of the few systems (especially in its hardware generation) that could have offered this "best of both worlds" solution. It could have been a unique selling point for games on this system, but sadly it never happened.

 

Side note, but Probe's conversions brought up, am i right in thinking 32X MK2 was considered 'dissapointing' by many?.

 

Larger sprites, far better sound, massively improved backdrops etc over the 24 Meg (?) MD version, clocking in on a 32 Meg cart (?), but still ran slower than the SNES version?.

 

Or was this not the case?.

 

It's been years since I've played either the 32X or SNES versions of Mortal Kombat II.

 

Looking back, I remember that the 32X version was actually the better version of the game. However, the SNES version was a much more impressive technical feat, considering the hardware.

 

If you happened to own both systems, then you'd likely want to go with the 32X version. However, the SNES game was 95% to 98% of the way there. Most people who had a SNES wouldn't bother to shell out the money for a 32X (and a Genesis, if they didn't have one already), when the SNES that they already owned could already play a "good enough" version.

 

That logic could also be applied to Primal Rage on the Jaguar CD...and many other Jaguar games as well.

[JagChris]

Primal Rage on the Jaguar probably should of been cartridge. They did not put any of the fmv of the other versions in there. How hard would that of been?