leods Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Maybe People won't Play the demo for Dark Flame. Well, It's not a metrovania style game. It's a Symphony of the night clone. And from the demo gameplay a horendous one at that. Mike throwing People at this shameless ridiculous "Project" is just another red flag. But in the sea of red flags that composes the RVGS landscape it's actually pretty tame. It's just Mike making sure every single post he makes is flawed. Just making sure to crush every single last bit of hope anyone sane would have that he has any clue whatsoever of what he's doing. Seriously. Play the demo... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S1500 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 So we have to kickstart the games too? Heck, I'm running a Kickstarter just for my reply to your message. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bretthorror Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Heck, I'm running a Kickstarter just for my reply to your message. I have never contributed to a project on one of these sites, but I find the RVGS campaign is just so cold. When the Ouya hit, I was instantly enamored, and I understand the excitement in the gaming projects on these sites. The RVGS had neither of this from the get-go. I really think the Retroland guys just thought this thing would sell itself. With the amount of money they needed and the cost of the system, not to mention the higher future cost of the system looming over its head, it just seemed like a lost cause from jump street. And it had been announced so long ago and had no buzz going in to a shoddy campaign. Marketing wise, what'shisname should have been pimping this out every day or two on Twitter and to anyone who would listen before launch. I keep hearing he's a marketing expert but I just don't get it. The RVGS is tailor made for internet buzz and all they were worried about was getting it in stores. Would it sell more in stores? Of course, but you've got to believe the market for this is the exact market that doesn't mind buying things on the internet. For the most part, people on AA are used to buying things on a forum from complete strangers. They should at least be talking to a handful of their fans on Twitter/FB daily. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopDrop&Retro Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 If this game gets funded and if we get funded and if you like cartridges and if you pay us enough to start our own business for us and if you want to take all that risk with your hard earned money and if you like cartridges and if you're ok with us lying to you every second day and if you like cartridges and if you wanna pay 4 times the digital price and if you like cartridges, YOU'RE GONNA LOVE DARK FLAME ON THE RETRO VGS! Hahaha, this is the RVGS pitch in a nutshell. Put up with all of our shit for whatever price we charge for the pleasure or risking it all on our product and hoping it all works itself out. So we have to kickstart the games too? In the early podcast interviews he talks about how he wanted to make a Kickstarter like no other before it. It would be one where the console AND launch titles are all part of the same pot. This is probably why he had such a high goal in mind from the start. It's beside the point at this time, but worth mentioning that this too would be yet another violation of Kickstarter's policy because all of the rewards must be made by the creator. A little bit of this idea still remained in their IGG project where you could give extra money to buy games (some of which weren't finished). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnovaX5 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Wow, is it April 1st already? October 2016 release, $75,000 goal, 1 man team who wants to hire 2 more people for his team? Is this the Software version of Mike? This is a joke, right? Are we going to put this game in the the $900 ManCrate RETRO VGS Crate too? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for indie games. I've kickstarted way way too many games and a few have burned me. This is just red flags everywhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja_gaiden2015 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Looks like there is a new Retrogamingroundup posted for october doesn't look like it covers the RVGS debacle as promised though, just a usual episode. The archives pages has it listed as a regular episode for october and not a RVGS special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja_gaiden2015 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Wow, is it April 1st already? October 2016 release, $75,000 goal, 1 man team who wants to hire 2 more people for his team? Is this the Software version of Mike? This is a joke, right? Are we going to put this game in the the $900 ManCrate RETRO VGS Crate too? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for indie games. I've kickstarted way way too many games and a few have burned me. This is just red flags everywhere... From the video too, it looks like he describes the project as his first ever game/piece of software. It's hard to have confidence in someone who has never published a piece of software, nor had experience running a gaming project from start to finish. As he states, he is self-tough and this is his first attempt. As much as I would like to have a great metroid-vania game on the market, I don't see this guy as achieving it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopDrop&Retro Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Looks like there is a new Retrogamingroundup posted for october doesn't look like it covers the RVGS debacle as promised though, just a usual episode. The archives pages has it listed as a regular episode for october and not a RVGS special Yeah, RGR said they won't release an episode looking at the RVGS until their campaign officially ends. We had some discussion about that, I think it might be stale or outdated news by then. Interest in the RVGS is starting to wane and we only have a handful of people browsing this thread at best. There's not going to be another surge of interest until Mike shows off what he's cookin'. By the time RGR's RVGS episode comes out, it runs into the danger of being irrelevant if Mike produces the prototype he said we can expect imminently (but then again, that depends on Mike). Wow, is it April 1st already? October 2016 release, $75,000 goal, 1 man team who wants to hire 2 more people for his team? Is this the Software version of Mike? This is a joke, right? Are we going to put this game in the the $900 ManCrate RETRO VGS Crate too? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for indie games. I've kickstarted way way too many games and a few have burned me. This is just red flags everywhere... From the video too, it looks like he describes the project as his first ever game/piece of software. It's hard to have confidence in someone who has never published a piece of software, nor had experience running a gaming project from start to finish. As he states, he is self-tough and this is his first attempt. As much as I would like to have a great metroid-vania game on the market, I don't see this guy as achieving it. I agree. But the guy isn't completely crazy, there is a right way to do this. Specifically, here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ericsmack/doko-roko Doko Roko, a project I've backed and just recently passed its modest $30k funding goal. This guy is also a one man team but is giving himself two years. His game is a rogue-like so hopefully it's not as demanding as a Metroidvania. In the end, I will concede that the project is still extremely risky and I wouldn't recommend it to everyone, but for a $10 buy in I'm willing to take the risk because the potential reward looks like a very good game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnovaX5 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 $10 tier, 30k budget, 2 year goal for a 1 man team is a little bit more realistic. I can get behind something like that because he isn't trying to be anything he isn't already. His goals seem a little more real to me. Dark Flame or whatever its called really does seem like the software version of the retro vgs saga. Instead of Jaguar shells this guy has Alucard sprites and is making a game based around those. Much like Mike trying to make a console based around the Jaguar molds. OK...Wow. I just looked at the Dark Flame KS again and it seems like they totally ripped out the ideas of the Bloodstained KS and copy pasted parts of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Yeah I think one reason why the lower priced KS are usually more successful isn't just the market but risk vs reward. At $10-$30 investment, a cool looking KS doesn't impose much risk. If I contribute $30 and it gets funded but never truly launches, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. If I contribute $300 to a project, they'd better damned be sure to have every i dotted and every t crossed, because I'll need to be 100% assured that I'll receive something tangible in return. Even if the damned thing was a blockbuster success and they were selling it at Target and Best Buy, I'd still question whether it was worth the price of parting with $300. And I'm part of the target demographic for this. But at $150 retail, I'd be all over that thing like flies to a dog turd! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romeoteknik Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Latest issue of RetroGamer had an article on this. (attached) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Doomed indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Id software Doomed my PC years ago. But it was cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S1500 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 One of the selling points was lack of internet access. Well, if you don't hook up the Internet to a modern console, you have that feature as well, at no cost. Replacing cartridges at the company's cost if there's a game breaking bug sounds like it could bankrupt a company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Latest issue of RetroGamer had an article on this. (attached) Thank you for sharing that. Mike K couldn't have had a better platform for his now-familiar schtick: softball questions, no followup questions. He is the modern Quarterman. Unfortunately for him in 2015, people get their information from other places than print magazines. So what do you think about what he calls their three main complaints: price, prototype, and Indiegogo? Sure, those are issues, but they're really just symptoms of what I think are the real problems with this: poor concept, inability to execute, and lack of software. What do you think? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 So what do you think about what he calls their three main complaints: price, prototype, and Indiegogo? Sure, those are issues, but they're really just symptoms of what I think are the real problems with this: poor concept, inability to execute, and lack of software. What do you think? I have to agree. Indiegogo was not the issue. Considering there are plenty of other high ticket items that get funded, I don't think price of entry was the issue either. I do think lack of a working prototype was an issue, so that's one of the three. Ultimately, I think the main issue was too much transparency before enough important decisions were made. If you're going to do something like this, you better have a locked down plan with only minor tweaks as needed based on feedback. Otherwise you end up with the monstrosity that was presented, which was a clearly impractical design meant to try and please everyone and ended up pleasing only the few who hadn't properly vetted it. So to me, the three issues were: lack of a finalized concept, lack of a prototype, and high target goal (i.e., you can't ask for millions for something like this). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I have to agree. Indiegogo was not the issue. Considering there are plenty of other high ticket items that get funded, I don't think price of entry was the issue either. I do think lack of a working prototype was an issue, so that's one of the three. I concur. The problem with IndieGoGo was that if there was a prototype they'd be on Kickstarter instead. There were other complaints, but those were pretty minor. It's functionally equivalent to pay Kickstarter at the end of the campaign as it is to pay IndieGoGo at the end of the campaign; one may just miss out on some 'early bird' specials an early Kickstarter pledge may have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 If they could have gotten their act together with a prototype, they might have impressed people enough to actually give them money. I remain unconvinced that Mike Kennedy can do anything besides run his mouth. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bretthorror Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I think the price was a huge, terrifying factor. They planned to retail this puppy for $350... the same price as a PS4. I fully understand the world revolves around the USA, but as a Canadian, the system would have cost me over $500 including shipping and taxes, most likely. We have about 35 million people here, so while we're not huge, we obviously have our share of retro gamers and collectors. I don't think even 1 in 1000 of them would buy it at that price. Even $180 is still a stupid price to pay for this hardware. I get that to make a console, even an outdated one, it's still gonna cost, but it's basically pissing that money down the drain. Even those of us in this thread who likely would buy it at the $150-$180 price point, I think it's safe to say, would admit that we are probably wasting money on what will be a very rare console in the future. All you people who have been talking about this with me for months, am I wrong in assuming this? The RVGS on IGG should have made decent money no matter what the forum backlash was from rich boys in the hobby and the goofs if there was actual interest in it at the original price. It's not like they had a decent amount of money, they literally raised so little you'd almost have to try to fuck up to get such little support. That tells me that nobody cares. Mike is either full of it, or maybe he genuinely believes there is a market for cartridges. We know there is, actually, to a degree. Here's the problem, Mikey, the Retroland crew has nothing to lose in this ordeal, everyone else does. We're going to be the ones sitting there with a console that has 10 games released for it that likely could all have been bought on a Steam sale for $5 each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I think the price was a huge, terrifying factor. They planned to retail this puppy for $350... the same price as a PS4. I fully understand the world revolves around the USA, but as a Canadian, the system would have cost me over $500 including shipping and taxes, most likely. We have about 35 million people here, so while we're not huge, we obviously have our share of retro gamers and collectors. I don't think even 1 in 1000 of them would buy it at that price. Even $180 is still a stupid price to pay for this hardware. I get that to make a console, even an outdated one, it's still gonna cost, but it's basically pissing that money down the drain. Even those of us in this thread who likely would buy it at the $150-$180 price point, I think it's safe to say, would admit that we are probably wasting money on what will be a very rare console in the future. All you people who have been talking about this with me for months, am I wrong in assuming this? The RVGS on IGG should have made decent money no matter what the forum backlash was from rich boys in the hobby and the goofs if there was actual interest in it at the original price. It's not like they had a decent amount of money, they literally raised so little you'd almost have to try to fuck up to get such little support. That tells me that nobody cares. Mike is either full of it, or maybe he genuinely believes there is a market for cartridges. We know there is, actually, to a degree. Here's the problem, Mikey, the Retroland crew has nothing to lose in this ordeal, everyone else does. We're going to be the ones sitting there with a console that has 10 games released for it that likely could all have been bought on a Steam sale for $5 each. I understand your concern about the currency conversion, but I don't see that as a huge factor. Despite the horrible exchange rate, I buy European stuff all of the time because it's something I want. The product has to be based out of somewhere, so SOMEONE in some other country is going to get screwed. As for the lack of support on Indiegogo, I do think a lot of that had to do with word spreading about the inherent issues. You couldn't miss the negativity even from a simple Google search. I think if there was only positive buzz, then the support vector would have been quite different. I'm still not sure they would have reached such a high goal, but it would have nevertheless gone far better in it. The negative momentum fed into itself and supporters became more educated on what was going on. That's why it's going to be such a challenge to distance themselves from the "stink" of the first attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bretthorror Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I understand your concern about the currency conversion, but I don't see that as a huge factor. Despite the horrible exchange rate, I buy European stuff all of the time because it's something I want. The product has to be based out of somewhere, so SOMEONE in some other country is going to get screwed. As for the lack of support on Indiegogo, I do think a lot of that had to do with word spreading about the inherent issues. You couldn't miss the negativity even from a simple Google search. I think if there was only positive buzz, then the support vector would have been quite different. I'm still not sure they would have reached such a high goal, but it would have nevertheless gone far better in it. The negative momentum fed into itself and supporters became more educated on what was going on. That's why it's going to be such a challenge to distance themselves from the "stink" of the first attempt. The exchange was somewhat of an afterthought to show that without the support of the other countries it's going to negatively effect the product for consumers as a whole. My main issue was that this console designed to play 16 bit games or at best, indie games with no internet connection and a cheap controller was the price of a PS4. I think that's insanity and completely out to lunch. Only the most hardcore of a collector would buy that and that is not the way for them to be successful. Throughout the months, we've all talked about how this is a collector's console, but it's not even that without games, and to get the games, you need a fair sized user base. You might be the first person I've spoke with regarding the RVGS who didn't have an issue with price. I don't think it's fair to bring negative word of mouth into the situation when they campaign gave us literally nothing positive to talk about. Positive buzz and negative buzz are obviously huge factors, but buzz is indicative of potential and value. People in this hobby have been in it for years and years, I don't think it took a forum dissing it for people to realize that initial concept was so bad it almost looked like a legit scam. The title of the thread tells it all - no one was clamoring for this off the bat, and early posts in this thread on the first pages before the IGG proved this. It wasn't a hyped product that took a negative turn because of the forum, people were iffy from jump street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Nobody cares. Android/iOS Steam & PC PS Wii Xbox And maybe Raspberry Pi ..are the major gaming platforms. Anything else is small-time flash in the pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I think they still fail at the concept. Mike mentions in that article the IGG campaign was to start a company, not just one console. That doesn't seem the right approach to crowdfunding, I'd think yoh need a very strong product first. Then the entire company orbits around having a piece of hardware which is obsolete by design, with benefits that you can get already by buying a 3DS and never updating its firmware. The Raspberry Pi, Retron 5, and Retro Freak also give you manual firnware upgrades, so you don't have to worry about an evil company pushing upgrades without your consent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Even their cartridge idea will only work as long as nobody defeats their encryption. Then they're going to have to update the base machine to fix it... or maybe release a new console? To top it all off, it looks like anybody pointing this put is a drunken naysayer. Way to alienate some of your potential early adopters. But hey - they have plenty on comments in forums. If they truly listen and present a solid product they could pull this off. It will all depend on how well they present the prototype. Edited November 17, 2015 by Newsdee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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