Altirra 2.60 released

[Mclaneinc]

Did the MIO work for you after that Jon?

[flashjazzcat]

This is my recreation in Blender of what having an R-Time 8 and a MaxFlash cartridge in an Atari would look like:

 

twocarts.png

 

There's only one standard slot in an Atari -- you can't have two left carts in it if neither has a pass-through without a hardware mod involving either a soldering iron or a hammer.

 

That's nice, but R-Time has a pass-thru. MaxFlash 8 Mbit conflicts in $D5xx, as does the old (non-flash) MyIDE (the latter because its registers aren't fully decoded).

 

Nope, that should do it. One possibility is that the dump you have isn't in the order that Altirra is expecting -- attached is a dump that I use.

 

Cool! Thanks Avery.

 

Did the MIO work for you after that Jon?

I'll test later: presumably it will.

[phaeron]

Oops, you're right, it does. Well, now that makes me wonder whether it might actually be work to some extent. Reading from the $D5B8-D5BF will switch off the MaxFlash cartridge, but I never checked whether the MaxFlash cartridge drives the data bus when accessed.

[drac030]

It is deliberately switched off in SDX, i.e. the R-Time 8 driver checks the SDX build type and on Maxflash 8 it just quits as if there was no R-Time 8 inserted.

Edited April 18, 2015 by drac030

[flashjazzcat]

Did the MIO work for you after that Jon?

Great - it works, but it was my fault it didn't work in the first place: VBXE was enabled at $D6xx; moved to $D7xx and the previous ROM works as well.

[morelenmir]

I laughed quite a bit at your illustration Phaeron!!! Its odd I never noticed that problem before as I have tinkered quite a lot with flashing the various cartridges and add-on devices with new SDX's. Somehow it must have got past me.

 

In the past I have had a strong interest in playing with a fully functional virtual 'Happy' floppy drive. I totally appreciate this is not your focus at the moment or perhaps ever. Accordingly I use the 'XF551' profile as my default so Altirra can pretend it has a double-sided double-density non-'flippy' disk drive. However I wondered how deep the XF551 simulation is? Is it a 'high-level emulation' or an 'accurate emulation' - or as with most things in life somewhere in-between? I ask because I have started reading about the PERCOM extension blocks and wonder how much of that information is valid for Altirra with the XF551 'installed'.

[phaeron]

All of the emulation modes are high-level: they emulate the behavior of the disk drive but not the actual drive code running in it. There are a couple of reasons for this. First, the base Atari disk drive protocol is high level enough that controller-level emulation isn't necessary -- you can't upload code to the drive like you could on, say, a 1541. This means that excellent compatibility levels are achievable with HLE. Second, there are a variety of controllers used on disk drives, including 6507, 6502, 65C02, Z80, and 8048.

 

Regarding the XF551 specifically, the drive sounds are from real samples recorded by fellow AtariAge members, the PERCOM block behavior is modeled after quirks in the real drive, it's simulated as spinning 300 RPM instead of 288 RPM, and it should support all of the commands. Deficiencies are that the high-speed format doesn't actually apply high-speed interleave, the seek behavior probably isn't completely correct, and the various drive timings haven't been tuned yet. I don't have an XF551, so I have to rely on you guys to spot anything else that's off, unlike the 1050 where I've been able to check against the real drive.

 

For the Happy drive, better emulation is definitely possible but a lack of information is a problem. I haven't found a good description of all the commands. If it turns out that the Happy software requires code upload then it becomes a much bigger pain to emulate, since it would require actually emulating the controller CPU to do good emulation. I've only just started on multi-CPU support with the Veronica stuff. In general, none of the special or non-disk features of drives are emulated in any of the emulation modes currently, so you can't backup protected disks or boot CP/M on the emulated drive.

 

It's worth noting that you need to be careful about having disks mismatched against the emulation mode, as currently Altirra doesn't check whether a drive actually supports the disk you put into it. You can bind a DSDD disk when the emulation mode is set to 1050, but weird things will happen when you do this.

[Shawn Jefferson]

I believe it is possible to upload code to the Happy drive, or at the very least change low-level settings... at least I believe that's what the VAPI software does to archive disks, and maybe even what some of the original Happy backup software did. (With some copies, you had to run the copy on a Happy drive or it wouldn't work for instance.)

 

But I don't know details... but there are folks on this board who would.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Shawn Jefferson

[+bf2k+]

IIRC, MIO v1.41 is a beta rom from warerat. I remember that it worked very well for me although my current KJ MIO is running v1.1ms

[guus.assmann]

Hello Phaeron,

 

Instead of emulating a complete 1050 or XF unit, wouldn't it be easier to be able to hook up a real drive to the PC running the emulator?

The connection can be done with the 1050 to PC link.

That's available to both the RS232 and the USB port.

Connecting the SIO bus to the outside world would be very nice for me anyway.

(Using the MegaSpeedy, most disk enhancements can be used in just one 1050)

 

Or should I just do some more reading and checking Alterra possibilities?

 

BR/

Guus

[phaeron]

Instead of emulating a complete 1050 or XF unit, wouldn't it be easier to be able to hook up a real drive to the PC running the emulator?

 

Different use case. That only works if you have a physical disk or an image ready to use with such a drive; it doesn't work, for instance, if you're trying to convert an ATX image into something a Happy drive can use, or you're trying to test drive-specific software against a drive you don't have.

[fujidude]

I don't have any of my Atari stuff anymore. For me and those like me, it happens through emulation or it doesn't happen.

[Marius]

I don't have any of my Atari stuff anymore. For me and those like me, it happens through emulation or it doesn't happen.

 

Emulators do not even get close to the experience I get from real hardware.

I appreciate emulators a lot, and I think they are a big help in development. They are easy too in the process of a quick check for something.

 

Phaeron does a fabulous job on Altirra, and there are more outstanding emulators.

 

the only emulators I use are device emulators like Sio2SD.

 

For the rest, I only use the real thing. Even coding is on real HW.

 

Edit:

Ohw I now see this is IN the Thread of Altirra 2.60. My response is rather odd and inappropriate in a thread about an emulator; my apology for that.

Edited April 20, 2015 by ProWizard

[fujidude]

 

Emulators do not even get close to the experience I get from real hardware.

I appreciate emulators a lot, and I think they are a big help in development. They are easy too in the process of a quick check for something.

 

Phaeron does a fabulous job on Altirra, and there are more outstanding emulators.

 

the only emulators I use are device emulators like Sio2SD.

 

For the rest, I only use the real thing. Even coding is on real HW.

 

Edit:

Ohw I now see this is IN the Thread of Altirra 2.60. My response is rather odd and inappropriate in a thread about an emulator; my apology for that.

 

Hey, no need to apologize. Nothing wrong with talking about real hardware here. BTW, I loved my Atari hardware. But a guy only has so much space, the emulation is excellent, and my real hardware got water damaged anyway. Hopefully, you will be just as welcoming if I mention something emulation related outside this thread too.

[guus.assmann]

Hello Phaeron,

 

Yes,of course there's a big difference between emulated hardware and the real thing.

And I do understand some of the difficulties emulating a 1050 with a Happy would bring.

That's why I suggested a possibility to add a physical 1050 unit to the emulator. Yes it would involve having a real floppy with software.

So what would be the use? Well, the emulated Atari has much nicer, comfortable and powerfull debugging features than the real Atari has ever had.

For me, that might mean that I can have a look at the inner workings of the programs that drive the Happy enhanced 1050. Of the Speedy, Us-Doubler, Archiver etc.

 

And how cool would it be to connect a real 1020 plotter to the emulated Atari. Or maybe even a 1010 datasette (Sound trough the soundcard...?)

 

So I'm suggesting a hybrid system.

Just a thought.

And I really happy that you also invest a lot of time in improving an already great product.

Thanks for that and I hope you can keep up the good work.

 

BR/

Guus

 

P.S. And of course connecting a MegaSpeedy enhanced 1050 could be much fun for me as well. But that might be considered "plugging hardware" :-)

Edited April 20, 2015 by guus.assmann

[Keatah]

Counterpoint:

Real hardware does not even get close to the experience I get from emulators. I appreciate real hardware a lot, and I think it's a big help in development and final verification.

 

But with emulators there is a certain Magic in the air!

 

Without turning this thread into a battle, let me say that the versatility and ease of use of most emulators is unparalleled. Especially when it comes to using modern displays, controls, and sound systems. And then there's the switching back and forth between machine configs and systems and programs.

 

There is no tedious physical setup, or teardown. Nothing to wear out or break. Emulators don't deteriorate over time, they will give me the same presentation tomorrow as today. They even add capabilities to the old machines we could only dream about back in the day.

 

 

I don't have any of my Atari stuff anymore. For me and those like me, it happens through emulation or it doesn't happen.

 

That's right. There's probably exists a hundred reasons, wants, voluntary desires, or involuntary circumstances why one would choose emulation over hardware. I think emulation is a cure for clutter. I already have 1 full-size garage of Apple II paraphernalia. If I were to extend that across the entire 8-bit spectrum it would get insane quite quickly. It would consume me!

 

Emulation is an elegant way to capture the spirits emanating from the ghosts of systems past. Ethereal. Otherworldly. Emulators transcend space and time itself. Connecting the future to the past and the past to the future.

[fox]

Hi Phaeron,

 

Can we please have a screen keyboard for Windows 8.1 tablets? You could probably use a keyboard drawn some 15 years ago by PG if he doesn't mind.

[Mclaneinc]

Emulation is an elegant way to capture the spirits emanating from the ghosts of systems past. Ethereal. Otherworldly. Emulators transcend space and time itself. Connecting the future to the past and the past to the future.

 

You just turned Altirra in to a thing of beauty via words....Excellent...

[phaeron]

Hi Phaeron,

 

Can we please have a screen keyboard for Windows 8.1 tablets? You could probably use a keyboard drawn some 15 years ago by PG if he doesn't mind.

 

There's already one: swipe up from the bottom about a third up. It's ugly, but it supports multi-touch for the ctrl/shift keys.

[drac030]

I appreciate real hardware a lot, and I think it's a big help in development

"The real hardware is a big help in development". In development of programs? Programs for what? For emulators?

 

That is probably an excellent occasion for a moment of silence: Atari computers *1979 †2015

[flashjazzcat]

I think it's a positive thing that coders without convenient or regular access to actual hardware can depend on accurate emulation in order to undertake development, using real hardware as the "acid" test. This means more people writing code for the platform. I understand that XCode includes iOS device emulation, but this does not mean that actual iPhones and iPads have become surplus to requirements.

[drac030]

For me that (Keatah's) statement is that it is an emulator what is the real thing, and the real computer is only a tool to verify compatibility. You get it out of a cardboard, verify, then put it back. At a later stage you do not bother getting it out, and, probably, if something does not work that is a fault of those who still are stupid enough to use the real hardware on a daily basis, instead of an emulator ethereal and otherwordly. At a yet later stage you throw the cardboard out together with its contents.

 

For me, it is an aberration.

Edited April 21, 2015 by drac030

[flashjazzcat]

OK: I read the original post again and the "magic" of emulators is certainly not the same as the magic of actual hardware (the latter being impossible to synthesise).

[snicklin]

I think that Altirra (I won't say "Emulators") is good because it can be used for a multitude of functions. First up - emulation. Then you have the ability to record videos, no extra hardware required. There's the debugging which I keep finding has more features than I either realise or know how to use (a bit more research would help from my front). Then there is the ability to access lots of emulated hardware additions (which I personally don't use).

 

This is all conveniently put together into one package at no cost or physical space.

 

The original hardware is good in that it is genuine. There is nothing like a good CX40 joystick in your hand. The original system is best for playing the games too. But not everyone has the space.

 

I also keep loads of games with the emulator which I can quickly flick between and produce screenshots for Pro© Atari.

[Keatah]

"The real hardware is a big help in development". In development of programs? Programs for what? For emulators?

 

That is probably an excellent occasion for a moment of silence: Atari computers *1979 †2015

 

Absolutely it is a help. Many homebrews would not have happened if the feature-rich emulators (with their debuggers) of today weren't available. I've heard that over and over again for VCS games. Some rare Apple II games would not have been cracked (and forever lost) if it weren't for emulators (and their support tools).

 

Programs for emulators. There's gonna be a point in time when emulators will be the only way to experience the classics. Unless exact replacement parts and replica parts (including GTIA and other custom chippery) are made available.

 

Didn't Atari die when it was sold off to infogrames? The atari of today is not the same atari we grew up with. And as it moves from IP squatter to IP squatter it just gets worse.

 

 

The original hardware is good in that it is genuine. There is nothing like a good CX40 joystick in your hand. The original system is best for playing the games too. But not everyone has the space.

I also keep loads of games with the emulator which I can quickly flick between and produce screenshots for Pro© Atari.

This (not having space) and financial issues are probably the number one reason why people would use emulators over the real thing. In my humble opinion and observation, no one choses emulators becase they're elegant or that they do something better. Or that they just think they're cooler.

 

The convenience of not only going from game to game, but from system to system quickly is also a boon.