The Atari interview discussion thread

[rkindig]

7 hours ago, markmiller said:

I've listened to a lot of his talks, and yeah, he's said extremely little about his time at Atari. Maybe the best source for getting more info. on that would be to read Howard Rheingold's document "Tools For Thought".

 

Here are a couple chapters that weave in what was done while Alan Kay was at Atari. He's mentioned Brenda Laurel a couple times:

 

The Birth of the Fantasy Amplifier

 

Brenda and the Future Squad

 

I'm remembering now I heard him give the same line that he was Chief Scientist at Atari when he testified at a House committee hearing that Al Gore chaired, back in 1982, but that was it. Everything else he said during the session had to do with some technology in education conference he attended (I think in Paris), and his own thoughts on how technology should be used in education.

 

This gives me the impression that he isn't that interested in talking about that experience. I think, like you said, in that clip you linked to, he revealed the real motivation he had for joining Atari was to try to get Logo on the platform, perhaps with some better educational materials than what was released with Logo on other platforms(?) Well, there were a couple Atari versions of Logo released. So, I guess that part succeeded.

 

In retrospect, he's said that the effort to get Logo into the schools was a failure, because the point was to use it as a tool for a kind of math instruction. Instead, the school system adopted it just as a means for teaching students programming. The idea of using it to teach math largely got lost.

This reminds me that I have an interview with Cynthia Solomon and Brian Silverman I did a few months back that I need to publish on ANTIC.  The main point of discussion was Logo on the Atari.

[markmiller]

9 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

You have to either locate or re create that work, hacking and modding are of interest at AA

 

When you put it like that, I have to sheepishly say if it was hacking, it was the most basic. I didn't have to open up my computer, wire anything up, or do any clever programming. The only clever thing I did was reason through it.

 

My Pascal class was assigned to use the Cyber system, I think because we had so many students, about 300. The computer lab for it had maybe 30-50 screen terminals (and some teletypes). It was a challenge to get a seat sometimes. It was possible to dial into the Cyber, and it had a line editor that you could use with a dumb terminal, which everyone hated. We all wanted to use FSE. The problem I had was FSE depended on using a terminal with function keys to carry out the editor commands. The Atari obviously didn't have that (the Start, Select, Option keys don't count  ). I asked whether there was anything for the Atari that would help with that, and I got a chuckle, "No." The school had an IT department that could help students with computer issues, but they only supported Macs and PCs. They had a terminal program they gave out called Kermit for those computers that they said worked with FSE.

 

I understood how terminal programs worked, translating keystrokes into codes sent over the phone line. One day, I thought it through, "Kermit must be sending special key codes to FSE when function keys are pressed. I wonder if I could get the Atari to generate those key codes." So, I got on my Atari, fired up VT10Squared, then fired up FSE on a throw-away file, and just started trying key combinations, like a Control-key combination, hitting Escape and another key, hitting Escape, then pressing a Control-key combination. I started seeing things happen. Whenever it did, I wrote it down, and kept going. That was really it. I think there was one editor function I wasn't able to reproduce, but that was fine. I was elated. I could work on my Pascal assignments from my dorm room, on my Atari, using a nice full-screen editor!

 

After my Pascal class, we were given Unix accounts, which we could use to access the internet... Come to think of it, I either got VT10Squared through my roommate's account (he had a Unix account), or I got it off a BBS. Hmm... Anyway, I definitely downloaded some Atari software off the internet while I was in school, since I'd found out about the Atari Archive at the University of Michigan (which is still around, BTW). After getting my Unix account, I was able to use e-mail, read news, etc., and work on my CS assignments using vi, on my Atari.

 

The one time I found that this was really impractical was when I took a course on computer architecture, because we were working in assembly language. I found working with a modem terminal was way too slow (I forget if I was using a 1200 or 2400 baud modem), because of the screen redraws for scrolling through my code. So, I took to firing up AtariWriter Plus to use as my text editor. I wrote my assembly code on that, uploaded my first draft to my Unix account, and then used vi for debugging.

 

I also used AWP for writing my school papers.

 

I got an Atari Mega STe in 1992, and took that to school, thereafter. I used ANSITerm for Unix/internet access, and WordUp for my word processor. That was nicer for schoolwork.

[markmiller]

2 hours ago, rkindig said:

This reminds me that I have an interview with Cynthia Solomon and Brian Silverman I did a few months back that I need to publish on ANTIC.  The main point of discussion was Logo on the Atari.

Okay, maybe Cynthia is the one he's mentioned, then (I said Brenda Laurel), because it was in connection with Logo.

 

As I thought more about what I said, I actually can't think of an instance where he's talked much about the companies he worked for, other than Xerox. He's said a little about working at Apple, saying he had input on the design of the Finder UI for the Macintosh. He's talked about Steve Jobs a bit. He's said a little about working at Disney in the late 1990s. He also worked for HP for a bit, but he hasn't said a thing about that.

 

Most of what he's talked about while he was at Apple, for example, was the educational work he did at the Open Charter School in Los Angeles. His involvement with that school has long since ended, not because he left Apple, but because staffing at the school changed, and there was an incompatibility between his educational goals and theirs.

 

Interestingly, in answer to a question about the Amiga recently, he said more about Atari than I've ever heard from him. He also said a few things about Commodore:

 

https://www.quora.com/What-does-Alan-Kay-think-about-the-Commodore-Amiga-1985-as-a-multimedia-computer-or-an-appealing-tool-for-artists-How-does-it-compare-with-Alto-or-Star-or-with-Sierra-machine-Atari-was-working-on-as-you-were-Chief/answer/Alan-Kay-11

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

Mentioning this because his name came up in the most recent episode: would it be possible to not give Kieren Hawken (The Laird, Laird's Lair channel on YouTube) further coverage or even just mentions?  He's a known fraud and liar, and has harassed many people over the course of the past decade or so.

 

Comprehensive details of his behaviour and interactions may be found in the following thread:

 

 

The following video also brings a lot of very damning evidence against him to light:

 

 

He's not someone who has anyone's interests at heart other than his own, and he doesn't care how he achieves them.  Please reconsider giving him any attention in the future.

[Albert]

25 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

He's not someone who has anyone's interests at heart other than his own, and he doesn't care how he achieves them.  Please reconsider giving him any attention in the future.

Seconded.

 

 ..Al

[rkindig]

I'm not quite sure how to respond to that.  We greatly respect the members and administrators of this forum.  I think the only mentions have been where there's something on YouTube that has been posted that has gotten a reasonably large number of hits and it involves the Atari 8-bit.

 

No disrespect or consternation is meant by any Atari 8-bit news that we cover.  Nor does it mean that the podcast necessarily supports that particular bit of news or its author.

 

Thank you for your thoughts and opinions on this.  We'll discuss it.

 

Randy

[+x=usr(1536)]

50 minutes ago, rkindig said:

No disrespect or consternation is meant by any Atari 8-bit news that we cover.  Nor does it mean that the podcast necessarily supports that particular bit of news or its author.

Both points are completely understood, and there was certainly not any disquiet on my side as a result of the episode.  It was a point that I felt needed to be raised, however, and I appreciate it being given your collective consideration.

[+DjayBee]

On 7/30/2016 at 8:33 PM, abbotkinneydude said:

Hi Kevin! Would it be possible to interview Yves Lempereur? He coded SNOKIE, TIME RUNNER and FLAK for FUNSOFT. Website link: http://yves.lempereur.name/. Thank you for all the hard work in making those great interviews available to all of us!

@Savetz Did you have any success in contacting him?

[Savetz]

On 1/12/2023 at 12:39 AM, DjayBee said:

@Savetz Did you have any success in contacting him?

I missed the request the first time. I'll see what I can do.

 

-Kay

[Savetz]

On 9/22/2022 at 3:48 PM, Allan said:

Island Graphics programmed Atari's Atari Artist.

 

http://www.atarimania.com/utility-atari-400-800-xl-xe-atariartist_s13326.html

 

@Savetz

 

I'll see what I can do. Seems like an interesting one.

 

-Kay

[+DjayBee]

@Savetz regarding your hunt for APX authors this thread might be interesting:

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

On 8/6/2015 at 10:28 AM, Savetz said:

Let's go to Atari Summer Camp! A special episode of ANTIC.

 

http://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-special-episode-atari-summer-camp

 

This episode took months of research, 4 interviews, found material. I'm proud of this work.

 

Includes interviews with:

Bob Kahn, Atari Director of Special Projects

Paul Somerfeldt, a teaching assistant

Dave Dresden, a camper

Barry Champagne, a camper

https://www.rakahn.com/clients_pages/Atari/

[JagChris]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:27 AM, rkindig said:

I'm not quite sure how to respond to that.  We greatly respect the members and administrators of this forum.  I think the only mentions have been where there's something on YouTube that has been posted that has gotten a reasonably large number of hits and it involves the Atari 8-bit.

 

No disrespect or consternation is meant by any Atari 8-bit news that we cover.  Nor does it mean that the podcast necessarily supports that particular bit of news or its author.

 

Thank you for your thoughts and opinions on this.  We'll discuss it.

 

Randy

I've seen him arguing facts one time with Leonard Tramiel. And Leonard responding ' I was there!'

[Lostdragon]

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

I've seen him arguing facts one time with Leonard Tramiel. And Leonard responding ' I was there!'

And he attempted to tell Leonard he knew more about his Father, Jack Tramiel than he did, at one point 🙄

 

He's also tried telling Julian Rignall he knew more about the 7800 ownership in the UK at the time, than the researchers looking into what consoles to cover, when Mean Machines magazine was being worked on before launch.. 

 

Tried telling musician Tim Follin, he knew more about his work than he did.. 

 

Etc etc.. 

 

Leonard does get things wrong at times admittedly, but... 

[tschak909]

6 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

And he attempted to tell Leonard he knew more about his Father, Jack Tramiel than he did, at one point 🙄

 

He's also tried telling Julian Rignall he knew more about the 7800 ownership in the UK at the time, than the researchers looking into what consoles to cover, when Mean Machines magazine was being worked on before launch.. 

 

Tried telling musician Tim Follin, he knew more about his work than he did.. 

 

Etc etc.. 

 

Leonard does get things wrong at times admittedly, but... 

am guessing that Kieran has never taken a punch.

 

-Thom

[Lostdragon]

2 hours ago, tschak909 said:

am guessing that Kieran has never taken a punch.

 

-Thom

To be brutally honest, given what's gone on within the Retro Community of late... 

 

Barcadia, reappearance of Jane Whittaker after loosing the court case and now former Commodore UK managing director David Pleasance and his Kickstarter campaign... 

 

 

The individual in question has probably never been more insignificant and obscure.. 

 

 

Making some ridiculous statements over the years about being friends with the Oliver Twins, John Romero not being much of a coder.. 

 

Talking about the late Archer Maclean telling him International Karate started coding life on the Atari 8-bit computer and then failing to produce the interview evidence to back the claim up.. 

 

It simply damages his credibility, not something you'd want to be doing as a solo publishing writer, but his choice. 

 

As for Leonard Tramiel... 

 

I would personally question his claim Jaguar Hoverstrike and Battlezone 2000 were entirely seperate games, based on the material evidence i have seen.. 

 

Video footage, press coverage etc

 

 

 

At the 50 min 3 seconds mark, we see Battlezone 2000 and it's clearly Hoverstrike being shown. 

 

And it looks like he was totally unaware of a lot of Panther game development done here in the UK etc. 

 

 

 

But it's the manner in how you present your findings, all you could do is explain to Leonard that multiple  sources from various development teams have confirmed they started work on Panther titles or had been given greenlight to start coding.. 

 

Shown evidence Battlezone 2000 deviated too far from it's original concept and became Hoverstrike.. 

 

Upto Leonard how he chooses to respond to credible research. 

 

I'd actually welcome Leonard being able to point the community in the direction of a seperate team, responsible for Battlezone 2000, if they were indeed seperate projects, i tried reaching HMS, had no response, so can only go on the resources shown here. 

 

I certainly wouldn't have the sheer audicity to try and educate him on his Father's role at Atari 😲

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Lostdragon

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Barcadia

Anything that Peter 'Nostalgia Nerd' Leigh is involved with can be generally considered a twatfest from the get-go.

 

What on earth is going on in the UK and its retro scene?  Between that, THGM / LD being complete and utter lying shits, and a lot of general underhandedness taking place, it's looking remarkably like it's going the same way as the arcade collecting scene in the US did about eight or nine years ago.

[Lostdragon]

15 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Anything that Peter 'Nostalgia Nerd' Leigh is involved with can be generally considered a twatfest from the get-go.

 

What on earth is going on in the UK and its retro scene?  Between that, THGM / LD being complete and utter lying shits, and a lot of general underhandedness taking place, it's looking remarkably like it's going the same way as the arcade collecting scene in the US did about eight or nine years ago.

Up until recently, Peter had been someone in the background as it were. 

 

His documentary style videos on platforms such as the Sinclair QL, Atari Jaguar and Falcon, were massive missed opportunities, lacking info on spats between Sir Clive and Atari etc. 

 

 

The comments sections were always full of the community filling in huge gaps in his research. 

 

I'd purchased his first book, medicore at best, sent it to recycling within weeks. 

 

But it started with his click bait 'I'm done with YT' Video, he came across as such an attention seeking twat.

 

 

If folk aren't watching your videos, try producing fresh, well researched and written content, don't start a massive whinge. 

 

 

THGM always been a talentless moron, looking for attention via his ANTI-NHS stance, as soon as revenues starting dropping off, he rolled his wife out, covering the very same topics he had, months and years before. 

 

 

Then the crying video hit and the floodgates opened. 

 

 

It's basically GREED is it not? 

 

They are scared, revenues falling off from YT and they are desperate to find new platforms of income. 

 

Peter has tried his hand at being a writer, got nowhere, now it's this Vegan Retro Arcade Bar. 

 

None of them want to risk their own money, they want the community to fund then, fund them to get projects off the ground, fund then to keep them running. 

 

 

I'm ashamed to see how low the UK scene has sunk and how quickly. 

 

 

People aren't passionate about the subject material, keen to being fresh insights, they just want to meet YT algorithms, make as much revenue as possible and feck each other over at every given opportunity. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Lostdragon

[+x=usr(1536)]

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Up until recently, Peter had been someone in the background as it were. 

 

His documentary style videos on platforms such as the Sinclair QL, Atari Jaguar and Falcon, were massive missed opportunities, lacking info on spats between Sir Clive and Atari etc.

To be fair, his earlier videos were better than the ones he's been cranking out over the last couple of years.  Not saying that they were necessarily particularly accurate, but, as you point out:

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

The comments sections were always full of the community filling in huge gaps in his research. 

And this is why they tended to come across as 'must try harder' efforts.  Technically well-made (by YouTube standards), but lacking in solid research.  I'd always wondered how much of that came down to actively rejecting anything that he didn't think the audience would find interesting, or how much of it may have been just lazy research.  At least they were inoffensive enough and weren't the obnoxious clickbait of more recent years.

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

I'd purchased his first book, medicore at best, sent it to recycling within weeks.

Never read it, but you're not the first person I've heard express similar views.

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

But it started with his click bait 'I'm done with YT' Video, he came across as such an attention seeking twat.

That particular video struck me as the sort of thing an angsty teenager would have made.

 

FWIW, his video on the Renault 19 was a particular low point in my book - not because he branched off into doing a car review, but because he picked arguably the most boring car to come out of France at a time when Peugeot and, to a lesser extent, Citroen were releasing some of their best.  I can understand the nostalgia factor for it what with having grown up in the one that his father had, but...  It's a Renault 19.  The sort of thing you buy for £350 out of the local newspaper because it has 6 months tax & MOT still on it and you don't have to care about where it ends up parked at night.

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

If folk aren't watching your videos, try producing fresh, well researched and written content, don't start a massive whinge. 

Or at least present your content in an interesting way.  Not gimmicky - interesting.  Even if it's just a personal opinion, at least have it be one that you can explain beyond, "and that's how I feel about that."

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

It's basically GREED is it not? 

 

They are scared, revenues falling off from YT and they are desperate to find new platforms of income.

While I don't disagree on the greed aspect, the impression that is given off is that there are a number of people looking to be 'professional' YouTubers in the retro scene.  They're investing their time, money, and effort into building these channels that don't offer anything that can't be found elsewhere and have little chance of pleasing The Algorithm enough to actually become a primary source of income.

 

The stereotype of the Starbucks barista in Los Angeles also being an actor, scriptwriter, director, and producer is true: I lived there for 16 years and saw it firsthand many, many times.  This is essentially the same type of delusion, but with content produced in the time that the barista would have been at an actual job making an actual living.

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Peter has tried his hand at being a writer, got nowhere, now it's this Vegan Retro Arcade Bar. 

In Norwich, nonetheless.  Insert infinite Alan Partridge references here; they're all that I can think of every time I remember where he chose to locate the place.

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

THGM always been a talentless moron, looking for attention via his ANTI-NHS stance, as soon as revenues starting dropping off, he rolled his wife out, covering the very same topics he had, months and years before. 

 

 

Then the crying video hit and the floodgates opened. 

Couldn't agree more on THGM; never could stand him.  The particularly sleazy, "yeaaaaaaaahhhh...," catchphrase that he used (uses?) was an instant indicator of everything one might need to know about this person.  Not surprised his wife is in much the same mould as him.

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

 

None of them want to risk their own money, they want the community to fund then, fund them to get projects off the ground, fund then to keep them running. 

 

 

I'm ashamed to see how low the UK scene has sunk and how quickly. 

 

 

People aren't passionate about the subject material, keen to being fresh insights, they just want to meet YT algorithms, make as much revenue as possible and feck each other over at every given opportunity. 

Which is largely the impression I've received of how it's been going over the past three years or so.  Shame, too, because there were some channels that had been cropping up with actual potential.

[Lostdragon]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

To be fair, his earlier videos were better than the ones he's been cranking out over the last couple of years.  Not saying that they were necessarily particularly accurate, but, as you point out:

And this is why they tended to come across as 'must try harder' efforts.  Technically well-made (by YouTube standards), but lacking in solid research.  I'd always wondered how much of that came down to actively rejecting anything that he didn't think the audience would find interesting, or how much of it may have been just lazy research.  At least they were inoffensive enough and weren't the obnoxious clickbait of more recent years.

Never read it, but you're not the first person I've heard express similar views.

That particular video struck me as the sort of thing an angsty teenager would have made.

 

FWIW, his video on the Renault 19 was a particular low point in my book - not because he branched off into doing a car review, but because he picked arguably the most boring car to come out of France at a time when Peugeot and, to a lesser extent, Citroen were releasing some of their best.  I can understand the nostalgia factor for it what with having grown up in the one that his father had, but...  It's a Renault 19.  The sort of thing you buy for £350 out of the local newspaper because it has 6 months tax & MOT still on it and you don't have to care about where it ends up parked at night.

Or at least present your content in an interesting way.  Not gimmicky - interesting.  Even if it's just a personal opinion, at least have it be one that you can explain beyond, "and that's how I feel about that."

While I don't disagree on the greed aspect, the impression that is given off is that there are a number of people looking to be 'professional' YouTubers in the retro scene.  They're investing their time, money, and effort into building these channels that don't offer anything that can't be found elsewhere and have little chance of pleasing The Algorithm enough to actually become a primary source of income.

 

The stereotype of the Starbucks barista in Los Angeles also being an actor, scriptwriter, director, and producer is true: I lived there for 16 years and saw it firsthand many, many times.  This is essentially the same type of delusion, but with content produced in the time that the barista would have been at an actual job making an actual living.

In Norwich, nonetheless.  Insert infinite Alan Partridge references here; they're all that I can think of every time I remember where he chose to locate the place.

Couldn't agree more on THGM; never could stand him.  The particularly sleazy, "yeaaaaaaaahhhh...," catchphrase that he used (uses?) was an instant indicator of everything one might need to know about this person.  Not surprised his wife is in much the same mould as him.

Which is largely the impression I've received of how it's been going over the past three years or so.  Shame, too, because there were some channels that had been cropping up with actual potential.

When he did videos like:

 

 

Fair play to him, entertaining enough. 

 

It's the documentary videos that I found major issues with, Kim Justice fell into the same trap, I would watch video, scroll through comments that were a mix of people saying, such a well researched video, with those pointing out corrections, adding missing facts, extra layers to the back stories, erm, video can't be that well researched, if so much is missing or incorrect. 

 

Appreciate limited running time but.. 

 

His book? Very... Vanilla for my liking. 

 

One glaringly obvious spelling mistake that slipped through made it appear a little sloppy, production values wise, but it was just so bland in it's approach, you'd read it, know you'd never pick it up again. 

 

Regarding  his audience moving away from his content... 

 

A more mature approach would of been to create a video entitled, how do I bring you back?  or something along those lines. 

 

Be honest with the audience, engage with them, ask them why they were cancelling subs, not watching every video, watching a few mins of a video at best. 

 

Take the feedback, use it to build your content going forward. 

 

Making out your done with YT? 

 

Tantrum much Peter? 

 

Just close the channel, get your teeth into your next project. 

 

Octavius Kitten and others have pulled the same stunt, that's it, I'm quiting Twitter, YT.. 

 

Then go my loves, if a social media platform isn't for you, move on. 

 

The biggest thing about the fallout from the whole THGM/LD fiasco for myself was the lack of transparency. 

 

From the few videos by THGM I had endured before, he'd seem to credit his script writers and researchers if they had YT channels of their own. 

 

 

Mention them in the video, link to their channel in the description. 

 

 

What i wasn't aware of, was the employment of a brand manager and others. 

 

LD and THGM thinking themselves now so big, they were a production company the pair of them literal living glove puppets, just reading poorly written scripts. 

 

 

The sad thing is, the smaller UK YT channels putting out genuine, passion based content, sharing new finds get a fraction of the views etc the big UK drama channels get, because they don't get involved, aren't interested in the drama, aren't ebegging for projects no banks would fund. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

36 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

The sad thing is, the smaller UK YT channels putting out genuine, passion based content, sharing new finds get a fraction of the views etc the big UK drama channels get, because they don't get involved, aren't interested in the drama, aren't ebegging for projects no banks would fund. 

What surprises me in the 'projects no banks would fund' department is that so many of these people (RMC in particular) appear to be trying to do the hobby-as-profession thing.  The reality is that if you're putting money into the business with no return, you have a failing business and either need to cut it completely or change what you're doing so that you can make it profitable and therefore self-sustaining.  Buying toys under the guise of, "it's for the company," doesn't work any better than renting studio space, packing it full of crap you've bought, and hoping that this somehow equals more views while the monthly expenses pile up.

[Cebus Capucinis]

I don't know what you're talking about. The Ferrari (or was it Lamborghini) parking space was a totally legitimate and necessary expense.

[MrMaddog]

Maybe if Pete the Nerd would stick with retrogaming and not do any X-Files crap which turned off a lot of subscribers (myself included).

 

Seriously, using a BBC Micro to communicate with someone from Medival times which was set up by a friggin' time traveler?  What type of wacked out Doctor Who shite was that!?

 

At least when Guru Larry mentioned the female cult that made computer games, it was at least funny...well his reactions to it at least.

 

[tschak909]

This thread needs to be spun off. 

-Thom

[+DjayBee]

On 11/27/2017 at 4:37 PM, Savetz said:

Sarah Haskell, Computerized Weaving

http://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-interview-315-sarah-haskell-computerized-weaving

 

A cartridge of the weaving software showed up on eBay:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195892965783