Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Its not about "the sole purpuse of playing the game", its about about balancing requirements. And those who invest the money (mostly collectors) are those who steer the direction for their products. If they don't care for content, then content of collector products will become irrelevant. Probably we would have to separate markets then, with less and less overlap. One concentrating on collectors and one concentrating on the players. In the former you will find more people who are interested in the money (CIB releases) and in the latter more who are interested in the system (ROM releases). IMO that's not a favorable development. IMO packaging and content should have a good balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Or that collecting is more important than playing? In the hugely larger 2600 area, I'd say there are far more people who play games than pokemon collect. Even if there are a large number of people who will buy crap on a cart just to have it. In the much smaller areas like the Jag and Inty there seems to be a much greater percentage of collectors/hoarders/speculators vs just straight game players. In the end I am afraid that you can almost start selling nicely packaged sealed bricks with minimal effort. That's certainly been proven in the Jag area a number of times already... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpmaul69 Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Its not about "the sole purpuse of playing the game", its about about balancing requirements. And those who invest the money (mostly collectors) are those who steer the direction for their products. If they don't care for content, then content of collector products will become irrelevant. Probably we would have to separate markets then, with less and less overlap. One concentrating on collectors and one concentrating on the players. In the former you will find more people who are interested in the money (CIB releases) and in the latter more who are interested in the system (ROM releases). IMO that's not a favorable development. IMO packaging and content should have a good balance. the difference here is that there arent crap games being pushed out floooding the market. Some of the games were unreleased mattel games that might not be super great but they were games made by mattel so people still want them. Roms for those have been available forever. As far as homebrew games i cant think of a game that made me think "that sucked." I think that the atari is either easier to program for or just a system people are familiar with bringing in a group of people that will release anything they think they can make a quick buck off of. Some inty programmers came to program for the system for the challenge after they had already programmed for other systems. They either made games that were ok and released the rom but never made a cart or made a great game that is or has ended up on cart. And new programmers here have so much help from the other programmers (who give so much help its kinda overwhelming for me to read )that they are able to make a game far better than they would have without all the support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+thegoldenband Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 We have a similar situation on the Atari 2600 side and it is pretty frustrating and discouraging for a developer like me to see that a mediocre at best, rushed game has similar feedback and sales as a labor of love, well polished, fun game. As a result we already have a LOT of cheaply developed games released. So the average game quality is IMO decreasing rapidly. Jeez, that's a depressing array of games. I'm sure some have decent gameplay, but many of them sure look like glorified vanity projects and fratboy jokes. I miss the days when Atari 2600 homebrew mainly meant games like Thrust, Man Goes Down, and other labors of love -- from developers who worked until the game looked and sounded beautiful, and played as well too. I fear the Intellivision scene is headed away from that ideal, but so far we're still on the good side of the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpmaul69 Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Jeez, that's a depressing array of games. I'm sure some have decent gameplay, but many of them sure look like glorified vanity projects and fratboy jokes. I miss the days when Atari 2600 homebrew mainly meant games like Thrust, Man Goes Down, and other labors of love -- from developers who worked until the game looked and sounded beautiful, and played as well too. I fear the Intellivision scene is headed away from that ideal, but so far we're still on the good side of the line. if you fear the intellivision is "heading away from that ordeal" please tell me which games are that bad. Yes magic carousel and space cunt might not be your cup of tea but they were made by mattel so people still want them. But i would love to have people talk about games the felt werent good released games. I really would like to know which homebrew games people didnt like. Also people have put a lot into packaging inty games to be nice and complete. Atari has so many cart only mediocre games relased for it. I dont know of any cart only games except blix for the intellivision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I miss the days when Atari 2600 homebrew mainly meant games like Thrust, Man Goes Down, and other labors of love -- from developers who worked until the game looked and sounded beautiful, and played as well too. I fear the Intellivision scene is headed away from that ideal, but so far we're still on the good side of the line. Posts like this are pretty disingenuous to the 2600 homebrew scene. There are MANY excellent games that have been released in the recent past, as well as games in the pipeline that will be released in physical form this year. batari BASIC has certainly made it easier for people to create 2600 games, and some of these games are not of the quality that one would associate with games created by experienced developers using 6507 Assembly. However, there have been many excellent games crafted with batari BASIC as well. And not every game being developed will eventually see a physical cartridge release. ..Al 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+thegoldenband Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Posts like this are pretty disingenuous to the 2600 homebrew scene. There are MANY excellent games that have been released in the recent past, as well as games in the pipeline that will be released in physical form this year. batari BASIC has certainly made it easier for people to create 2600 games, and some of these games are not of the quality that one would associate with games created by experienced developers using 6507 Assembly. However, there have been many excellent games crafted with batari BASIC as well. And not every game being developed will eventually see a physical cartridge release. Sorry, Al -- I didn't mean to be dismissive; in my experience, pretty much everything that comes out on the AtariAge house label deserves release. It's just...there's a lot of stuff out there that doesn't seem to have real TLC put into it (whether made with batari BASIC or otherwise; there are some excellent bB games, after all, and I'm a bB user for music). I remember a time when it seemed like the ratio of games with TLC to games without was better. And some undeserving games have, unfortunately, been released on cart and sold. @pimpmaul69: Eh, naming specific games will only create ill will. I've gotten a couple Intellivision homebrews where I play it once, put it back on the shelf, and have a hard time imagining ever wanting to play it again. Most are very good, though, and a few are brilliant. I'll admit I'm not super-psyched about putting out every single unreleased classic-era ROM, but you're quite right that that (repro releases) is a separate issue. Some of those releases have been damned good, though; King of the Mountain is one that really stands out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 batari BASIC certainly plays a role here (with some exceptions), but there are even low quality, pure assembly games released which are clearly targeting collectors only (N.E.R.D.S anyone?). Fortunately Al is following a strict quality policy when it comes to Atari 2600 releases (can't judge the other systems). And yes, there are still quality games developed for the Atari 2600. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BBWW Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Not sure if I get you here. I suppose you meant to say the game play is much less relevant to you than packaging. While I can understand that, there is a hidden danger in that attitude. The more people follow it (and there are quite a lot), the less relevant development becomes and effectively you are promoting packaging over development. No what I tried to say was game play is important and I wouldn't buy a ROM of a game that I didn't plan on playing in a Cuttle Cart or some similar device. With a CIB I'm in SO DEEP that I feel compelled to buy all the CIB releases to maintain my collection. One Sealed or "NIB" and one to open and play. A ROM I would have less interest in in general but a great game would be worth buying IF that was the only way to get it. I don't play games as much as I once did...how ever I share this hobby with my son. I support some sort of DRM on ROM's to protect the investment made in developing games I also have great respect for those who build and release ROM's just for the joy of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Climber Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 please tell me which games are that bad. But i would love to have people talk about games the felt werent good released games. I really would like to know which homebrew games people didnt like. Many people are not willing to "go there" if they do not like a Homebrew...but not me I tried to keep the list as mainly homebrews but a few of these might be original Mattel games, I don't really know. I also just can't slam games without also praising the good games so I did a grading system for them all. If you want an explanation as to why I didn't like any of the specific games just ask but I didn't want to type a mini review of each one, lol Excellent games (score 9/10 to 10/10) These are games that will probably be buried with me in my coffin someday and quite possibly the main reason my Intellivision is hooked up - DK Arcade - 10 - D2K arcade - 9 - Christmas Carol - 10 - Ms Pac Man - 9 - Superchef BT - 9 REALLY Good games (score 7/10 to 8/10) I really like these ones and play them regularly (well, as regularly as a guy with zero free time can) I just have a few minor gripes here and there but overall really like them - Princess Quest - 8 (I actually hated this game initially but gave it a proper chance as I do with all homebrews, now I love it) - Caves of Kroz - 8 Passable games (score 5/10 to 6/10) These are games that I find myself getting bored and wanting more if I spend more than 15 minutes with them. I want to like them more but have trouble really getting into any of them. I can't go as far as saying I don't like them but I also can't say I like them either - Boulder Dash - 6 - Flappee Bird - 5 (In very short bursts this game IS very fun, but I do mean VERY short bursts, lol) - Space Raid - 5 Games I don't like (under 5/10) These are games I flat out just don't want to play, I either find them boring or frustrating. In some of these games defense I knew I wouldn't like them (due to personal taste/genre) and only bought them to pokemon style collect Some of them though I expected to be better... - Minehunter - Match 5 - Paddle Party - Old School - Blix - Super Pro Tennis - Sydney Hunter - Ms Nightstalker Now, how much of this score is influenced by personal taste, the amount I paid for them, comparing to much better games, not spending enough time with them/etc is all up for debate. I just know this is my current stance on these games. If it's not listed I either have not played it, was so unmemorable I completely forgot it, or I know it to be an original Mattel prototype reproduction. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpmaul69 Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Many people are not willing to "go there" if they do not like a Homebrew...but not me I tried to keep the list as mainly homebrews but a few of these might be original Mattel games, I don't really know. I also just can't slam games without also praising the good games so I did a grading system for them all. If you want an explanation as to why I didn't like any of the specific games just ask but I didn't want to type a mini review of each one, lol Excellent games (score 9/10 to 10/10) These are games that will probably be buried with me in my coffin someday and quite possibly the main reason my Intellivision is hooked up - DK Arcade - 10 - D2K arcade - 9 - Christmas Carol - 10 - Ms Pac Man - 9 - Superchef BT - 9 REALLY Good games (score 7/10 to 8/10) I really like these ones and play them regularly (well, as regularly as a guy with zero free time can) I just have a few minor gripes here and there but overall really like them - Princess Quest - 8 (I actually hated this game initially but gave it a proper chance as I do with all homebrews, now I love it) - Caves of Kroz - 8 Passable games (score 5/10 to 6/10) These are games that I find myself getting bored and wanting more if I spend more than 15 minutes with them. I want to like them more but have trouble really getting into any of them. I can't go as far as saying I don't like them but I also can't say I like them either - Boulder Dash - 6 - Flappee Bird - 5 (In very short bursts this game IS very fun, but I do mean VERY short bursts, lol) - Space Raid - 5 Games I don't like (under 5/10) These are games I flat out just don't want to play, I either find them boring or frustrating. In some of these games defense I knew I wouldn't like them (due to personal taste/genre) and only bought them to pokemon style collect Some of them though I expected to be better... - Minehunter - Match 5 - Paddle Party - Old School - Blix - Super Pro Tennis - Sydney Hunter - Ms Nightstalker Now, how much of this score is influenced by personal taste, the amount I paid for them, comparing to much better games, not spending enough time with them/etc is all up for debate. I just know this is my current stance on these games. If it's not listed I either have not played it, was so unmemorable I completely forgot it, or I know it to be an original Mattel prototype reproduction. for me flapee bird, minehunter and match 5 would be higher. I also love puzzle games. As far as the rest you arent too far off from my thoughts on the games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+thegoldenband Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I also am fond of Minehunter, and as a tennis fan I was super-glad about Super Pro Tennis though I haven't played it much yet. Old School was engaging too. One thing about Flapee Bird -- though the gameplay is (deliberately) simplistic, I can hardly think of another game with more of that TLC I was talking about, at least in terms of presentation. The graphics are just gorgeous, and the music is quite well done as well. I think if you're going to make a Flappy Bird game, that's pretty much the way to do it, so hats off. Unfortunately we haven't had a lot of frank discussion of homebrews, partly because several prolific homebrewers have either made it clear that they don't welcome criticism of any kind (even if it's not directed to them), or have just behaved badly or erratically in the wake of even very mild criticism. But the whole "only say nice things or I'll take my ball and go home" phenomenon has been discussed elsewhere. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Unfortunately we haven't had a lot of frank discussion of homebrews, partly because several prolific homebrewers have either made it clear that they don't welcome criticism of any kind (even if it's not directed to them), or have just behaved badly or erratically in the wake of even very mild criticism. But the whole "only say nice things or I'll take my ball and go home" phenomenon has been discussed elsewhere. Agreed! Its nice to see some honest scoring of games instead of the fawning and dog piling that goes on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 I give Ms Night Stalker a 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freewheel Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Feel free to harsh on anything I produce. I know damn well that I'm a rank amateur and have pretty much zero artistic skills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpmaul69 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Feel free to harsh on anything I produce. I know damn well that I'm a rank amateur and have pretty much zero artistic skills thats what us pixel artists are here for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yell0w_lantern Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Yes but buying a Mint condition 1979 car would cost more in many cases now that the car sold for new. But going back to my car analogy, then it wouldn't be car that some guy just built in his garage. Your analogy would be more like finding a mint heavy-sixer in mint box. The point being though that an early 8-bit homebrew game is nothing like a modern game in the vast majority of cases and so when the new modern game and the new early 8-bit homebrew game are the same price, people will really stop and think about that purchase - whether you think it is right or fair, people are bound to make that comparison and not necessarily on a fully conscious level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric7100 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 All I know is that Ms. Pac-Man is my favorite Intellivision homebrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BBWW Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 But going back to my car analogy, then it wouldn't be car that some guy just built in his garage. Your analogy would be more like finding a mint heavy-sixer in mint box. I could use a guitar analogy! :-) I'll stop. I just historically don't find the home-brews overpriced. Part is just knowing the price difference in buying 10,000 units of something and 100 units of something. The design and work costs you the same amount of time. Small scale reproduction is expensive. That said I think the sweet spot for sales would be $49.99. Then in 6 months you can see them for $99 on eBay. So you make 300, sell 200 for $49. If you hold 100 back and sell 5 a year on eBay for $99 the first year, Then $129 then $150 and so on, your average price will go up $75 LOL...wait, I said I'd stop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yell0w_lantern Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I could use a guitar analogy! :-) I'll stop. I just historically don't find the home-brews overpriced. Part is just knowing the price difference in buying 10,000 units of something and 100 units of something. The design and work costs you the same amount of time. Small scale reproduction is expensive. That said I think the sweet spot for sales would be $49.99. Then in 6 months you can see them for $99 on eBay. So you make 300, sell 200 for $49. If you hold 100 back and sell 5 a year on eBay for $99 the first year, Then $129 then $150 and so on, your average price will go up $75 LOL...wait, I said I'd stop! I think you have made some excellent points. I wouldn't say that homebrews are overpriced, per se. From what I have seen, writing a game takes a lot of effort and time. Many of them are very well-done productions. But, as you know, money is a limited resource and then the potential buyers have to make a value judgment as to where to spend that money. Of course as the price goes up, many other things start to compete against the homebrew videogame. I think the number of people willing to buy deluxe homebrews could be described as a niche of a niche - and it's a distinction we've seen before in retrogaming, game collectors versus game players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Maybe I'm wierd, but I actually prefer loose carts as they take up less space and I can buy more games on my limited budget. Another issue is I store the boxes separate from the carts because it reduces wear and tear and requires less effort. I like the ability to try out a game to be sure I really want it as well. A lot of NES homebrews on say RetroUSB, etc have demos that you can download to only let you play the first stage. That will usually tell you right off if the game is right or not. Unfortunately with arcade style Atari games, the first stage is the whole game. Still I have bought numerous games after trying out the ROMs for myself. There is something magical about inserting the cart into the system that even flash carts cannot fully replicate. No menus or folders with hundreds of ROMs to navigate. Insert cart and power on. Edited July 10, 2015 by stardust4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 Breaking news.......everyone is different! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+thegoldenband Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Breaking news.......everyone is different! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Gotta love the "I'm not," at the end... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntellivisionDude Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Why does Kroz never get the respect it deserves. It gets an easy 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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