FPGA Based Videogame System

[Tusecsy]

You're right, they're referring to the product that exists, and not to one that doesn't...

[jamon1567]

You're right, they're referring to the product that exists, and not to one that doesn't...

 

It's referring to a product that doesn't meet their own description of it. They've built their reputation on being "reference quality", and the NT Mini can credibly stand up to that claim. To apply it to the Super NT is just plain false, at least in their current offering. It might be kick ass and a great value and whatever else, but it's not what they claim it to be, even if it's 95% of what they claim it to be.

[Tusecsy]

 

It's referring to a product that doesn't meet their own description of it. They've built their reputation on being "reference quality", and the NT Mini can credibly stand up to that claim. To apply it to the Super NT is just plain false, at least in their current offering. It might be kick ass and a great value and whatever else, but it's not what they claim it to be, even if it's 95% of what they claim it to be.

 

For HDMI it absolutely is...

[Sneakyturtleegg]

 

For HDMI it absolutely is...

 

SNES natively outputted RGB analogue video, therefore that is the reference point. The Super NT outputs a pure digital signal via HDMI, which is a compromise. As it stands now, the Super NT is not a SNES reference system. There is no disputing facts, which you completely lack in this thread. Please stop making things up, spewing misinformation, and stop being a troll.

[Tusecsy]

 

SNES natively outputted RGB analogue video, therefore that is the reference point. The Super NT outputs a pure digital signal via HDMI, which is a compromise. As it stands now, the Super NT is not a SNES reference system. There is no disputing facts, which you completely lack in this thread. Please stop making things up, spewing misinformation, and stop being a troll.

 

By your definition anything short of an original snes can't be reference? And how does that original snes look on a TV actually made in the last 15 years? And which SNES revision? And obviously on a perfect BVM only?

 

Super NT is the reference quality system for HDMI....fact!

 

The only person trolling here is you.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Tusecsy

[Great Hierophant]

The SNES generates 15-bit RGB digitally internally and converts it to analog values and filters it as it leaves the PPU. People have complained that the filtering in the early, non-1chip units made the picture too blurry. Digital is the reference point from which an analog signal can be derived. The marketing term is appropriate by today's standards.

[F34R]

I personally would LOVE to have it the same way the NT Mini was done. I would pay the price, no doubt lol. However, they aren't going to for that group, and they've made something more affordable. I completely understand that. With that being said, I don't see the point of getting upset that they are saying "no compromises", and because you're not getting what you want (no one in particular), the argument of inaccurate or false marketing is being used. I think it's fair to use the terms they are under the way the hardware is being used.

[Sneakyturtleegg]

The SNES generates 15-bit RGB digitally internally and converts it to analog values and filters it as it leaves the PPU. People have complained that the filtering in the early, non-1chip units made the picture too blurry. Digital is the reference point from which an analog signal can be derived. The marketing term is appropriate by today's standards.

 

HDMI and flat panel televisions did not exist when the SNES was in production. Pixels were never intended to be displayed on modern flat panel televisions, along with introduced lag. In the context of our old retro gaming systems, no matter how you cut it, a pure digital signal via HDMI cannot properly reproduce an analogue picture on a modern flat panel. I do understand what you are saying as a technicality, but in my opinion RGB is the reference point, like the NT Mini. All of our old consoles were designed to be displayed through an analogue signal on a CRT. It doesn't matter how the sausage was made. I know analogue and CRTs are going away, but a pure digital signal via HDMI is a compromise for our old systems, not a reference point. That isn't debatable. The Super NT is probably going to be the next best thing, but the picture won't be displayed the way an original SNES was designed and intended to be. To me, Analogue marketing the Super NT as a reference system is ambiguous at best. Thats just my opinion. Analogue first as intended, HDMI second as a modern compromise.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Sneakyturtleegg

[Sneakyturtleegg]

 

Super NT is the reference quality system for HDMI....fact!

 

 

Applying some logic here, wouldn't the Super Nintendo Classic Edition be the reference for HDMI? It is an OEM product by Nintendo, is HDMI only, and is already on the market.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Sneakyturtleegg

[cfillak]

I just got my Raphnet adapters in the mail today and did a bit of light testing with my NTT Data SFC controllers. Holding A+X DOES indeed load Atari 2600 Supercharger games. I also noticed something neat about the NT Mini menu. If you boot up the console with an NES controller plugged in, the button icons for select and back are A and B respectively (I have it set that way in my settings). I knew the Raphnet SNES controller to NES adapter mapped B->"NES A" and Y->"NES B" for comfort's sake, so I thought I would have to deal with the incongruity of the NT Mini's onscreen display telling me to press A on a controller that mapped B to A and to press B with Y mapped to B. But to my surprise, if you boot up the NT Mini with the Raphnet adapter and the NTT Data SFC controller plugged in (I assume it will be the same case for any SNES/SFC controller, but haven't tested yet), the on-screen button icons will have changed from A and B to B and Y respectively. Just thought I'd share this cool little detail!

[Kismet]

 

HDMI and flat panel televisions did not exist when the SNES was in production. Pixels were never intended to be displayed on modern flat panel televisions, along with introduced lag. In the context of our old retro gaming systems, no matter how you cut it, a pure digital signal via HDMI cannot properly reproduce an analogue picture on a modern flat panel. I do understand what you are saying as a technicality, but in my opinion RGB is the reference point, like the NT Mini. All of our old consoles were designed to be displayed through an analogue signal on a CRT. It doesn't matter how the sausage was made. I know analogue and CRTs are going away, but a pure digital signal via HDMI is a compromise for our old systems, not a reference point. That isn't debatable. The Super NT is probably going to be the next best thing, but the picture won't be displayed the way an original SNES was designed and intended to be. To me, Analogue marketing the Super NT as a reference system is ambiguous at best. Thats just my opinion. Analogue first as intended, HDMI second as a modern compromise.

 

You want to know something? If you use HD Retrovision's cable on a real SNES, how the TV or capture card operates is completely up in the air. The European/Japanese models had RGB out to be used with a RGB television, thus it was a known output. But those still sent the digital signal through an analog encoder.

 

But in the US, if you plug one of these Retrovision cables in (Component Cable, results in 1440x240p or 720x240p depending on how your device reacts), you get something that looks like this, uncorrected:

 

Take note of the shape of the black border and the aspect ratio.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Kismet

[Sneakyturtleegg]

 

You want to know something? If you use HD Retrovision's cable on a real SNES, how the TV or capture card operates is completely up in the air. The European/Japanese models had RGB out to be used with a RGB television, thus it was a known output. But those still sent the digital signal through an analog encoder.

 

But in the US, if you plug one of these Retrovision cables in (Componet Cable), you get something that looks like this, uncorrected:

 

Take note of the shape of the black border and the aspect ratio.

 

Interesting. I use the HD Retrovision component cables for my Genesis, SNES, TurboGrafx 16 and Saturn. I run them through a switch and then to a late model CRT. They all look great. Unfortunately my LG flat panel doesn't handle 240p so I don't bother. I think the only viable analogue solutions for retro consoles on modern televisions might be to use a Framemeister or an OSSC. I'm leaning toward an OSSC for the price point. I guess the HDMI standard has recently been updated to support 240p though.

[Tusecsy]

 

Applying some logic here, wouldn't the Super Nintendo Classic Edition be the reference for HDMI? It is an OEM product by Nintendo, is HDMI only, and is already on the market.

 

 

Interesting. I use the HD Retrovision component cables for my Genesis, SNES, TurboGrafx 16 and Saturn. I run them through a switch and then to a late model CRT. They all look great. Unfortunately my LG flat panel doesn't handle 240p so I don't bother. I think the only viable analogue solutions for retro consoles on modern televisions might be to use a Framemeister or an OSSC. I'm leaning toward an OSSC for the price point. I guess the HDMI standard has recently been updated to support 240p though.

 

Software emulation via a repackaged raspberry 2 is hardly reference quality. Regardless of the manufacturer. Would be an interesting palette for the Super NT though.

 

Definitely go with the OSSC, great little piece of kit. Make sure your TV can do 4x line mode though that's the real killer app.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Tusecsy

[Kismet]

 

Interesting. I use the HD Retrovision component cables for my Genesis, SNES, TurboGrafx 16 and Saturn. I run them through a switch and then to a late model CRT. They all look great. Unfortunately my LG flat panel doesn't handle 240p so I don't bother. I think the only viable analogue solutions for retro consoles on modern televisions might be to use a Framemeister or an OSSC. I'm leaning toward an OSSC for the price point. I guess the HDMI standard has recently been updated to support 240p though.

 

The HD Retrovision cables on a real SNES to a capture card or a CRT is a crapshoot. I bought it specifically so I didn't need to modify the console. At least with the SA7160 I can force certain settings, and I knew it would work in advance because I could send the S-Video's luma through it, I just had no idea what the color would look like till I got the cable.

 

A HDMI 240p mode is not going to be what people think it is. HDMI 240p is 1440x240p or 720x240p as defined in the EIA/CEA-861 extension block.

 

code 8, 240p, DAR 4:3, PAR 8:9, Pixel Clock 27.0 Mhz, 720(1440)x240p @ 59.94/60 Hz

 

At first glance you'd go, "oh that looks right", but then remember the SNES can do interlaced 480i mode too, and how current TV's handle this, typically results in a resync step. Even on the SA7160, can deal with it, but there's a good several seconds where it looks like the software locked up.

[alexj212]

I would love to see this with several usb so that they could be used as controllers. As well as potentially connected to a pc for doing homebrew dev. If this was a platform for players and developers that would be awesome and you would have my money. I know I ask alot, but if it could also be used as a fpga dev platform for designing a pc, as well as software dev for a pc with remote debug connectivity you would have me.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Reference quality control...not the same thing.

 

Uncompromising attitude to quality...not the same thing.

 

Like I said, delusion.

 

Keep living in the past with your niche 200 lb CRTs. 99% of the world doesn't care.

 

Neither of which they claim...

 

Lots of delusion in this thread so I'll just let you guys fight amongst yourselves on the CRT topic.

Seriously, who the hell cares about the definition of "reference quality" ?

 

The framerate is adjusted some .1% give or take to match 60Hz HDMI refresh rate. No human on Earth is going to detect this while playing NES or SNES games. Secondly the whole deal over RGB purity can be safely put to rest. So the SNES is at it's core a purely digital system which outputs 5bit RGB video and sampled audio. It has a frame of 256 pixels by 224 pixels.

 

Original hardware formatted these A/V signals through the use of internal DACs, to be compatible with current (1990s) consumer grade display tech at the time of production.

 

The Super NT recreates the schematics of the original hardware and uses integer based scaling to make the native digital output compatible with current (2010s) consumer grade display tech at the time of production.

 

SNES output the best possible picture (RF / Composite / S-Video) for consumer TVs at the time of production. Super NT outputs the best possible picture (HDMI) for consumer TVs at the time of production.

 

The user experience and core interaction has not changed, and the only people for whom the slight timing idiosyncrasies and other minute differences will matter are pro speed runners, who are required to use original OEM hardware anyway if performing for official human speedrun or high score records. For those elite individuals, only OEM hardware and tube TVs will do.

 

For the rest of us, flawless square or rectangular pixels representing the exact output of the game system within 16ms or less (for top rated monitors), coupled with noise / distortion free audio/visual presentations, will provide the best possible experience for new and veteran gamers to enjoy classic video games.

 

To me, "reference quality" is a moving goal post which changes over time as hardware and technology improve. For instance, a "reference quality" sound system today would not represent the definition of what was considered "reference quality" reproduction during the days of vacuum tube AM radios, or horned grammaphone record players. Likewise black and white era TV from the 50s is no longer "reference quality" compared to a modern home theater system.

 

The goal is 100% compatibility with original hardware, and I believe it is 99.9% achievable with the Super NT. And will certainly afford a nicer presentation on modern TV sets.

 

So drop the "reference" vernacular please. It's just a fancy new buzzword that has been taken way out of context.

[Keatah]

The term "reference" quality is meaningless. It can mean whatever you want it to mean.

[Andromeda Stardust]

The term "reference" quality is meaningless. It can mean whatever you want it to mean.

The proper term is standard.

 

Industry standards like NTSC broadcast, or a calibration block that measures presicely one inch, or an atomic time clock. Stuff like that is quantifiable.

 

There is no "standard" for retro game console video outputs, much of which is out of spec to varying degrees compared to NTSC.

 

A game cratidge and the ROM data contained on it are not standards but formats. An NES game and an Atari 2600 games are separate formats much like Vinyl / redbook CD or VHS / DVD. Super NT plays SNES format, and possibly others if it gets jailbroken. And they are not standards since they're proprietary.

 

Reference quality would likely refer more to the quality of the playback equipment, like a pair of studio monitors in a acoustically damped room for nearly perfect audio reproduction. SNES format is imo defined by the cartridge / controller interface and the raw sound and pixel output, not the imperfect means of transmitting the audiovisual data to the gamer. A pixel is a quantifiable datum; however the means to display it isn't. If the boundaries of the pixel are plotted on a 2d plane alongside other equally spaced pixels, an output raster is genrated. Scanline double, triple, quadruple, ect digitally on an HD rastor display is no different than it's analog cousins of yesteryear. The HD display has it's own artifacts imparted upon the image, however these artifacts are small enough in size to be imperceptible. Quite to the contrary, composite / rf, electrical noise, filtering, bloom, phosphor persistence, color mask defects, and other abberations present in vintage video transmission and display tech, mask the rectangles such that the exact shape of individual pixles is obfuscated.

 

So I'm not sure what to use as "reference". Perhaps a grid of perfect rectangles that exist in logic only, and cannot be displayed faithfully with any display tech, new or old.

[gulps]

 

HDMI and flat panel televisions did not exist when the SNES was in production. Pixels were never intended to be displayed on modern flat panel televisions, along with introduced lag. In the context of our old retro gaming systems, no matter how you cut it, a pure digital signal via HDMI cannot properly reproduce an analogue picture on a modern flat panel. I do understand what you are saying as a technicality, but in my opinion RGB is the reference point, like the NT Mini. All of our old consoles were designed to be displayed through an analogue signal on a CRT. It doesn't matter how the sausage was made. I know analogue and CRTs are going away, but a pure digital signal via HDMI is a compromise for our old systems, not a reference point. That isn't debatable. The Super NT is probably going to be the next best thing, but the picture won't be displayed the way an original SNES was designed and intended to be. To me, Analogue marketing the Super NT as a reference system is ambiguous at best. Thats just my opinion. Analogue first as intended, HDMI second as a modern compromise.

 

 

For me actual reference point is a RGB CRT TV standards clone.

 

This means a pixel perfect screen (integer scaling) with all 100% RGB colour accuracy (or 100% NTSC if possible: 100% sRGB = 72% NTSC, standard on majority of CRT TV tubes), contrast and brightness, and of course with minimal lag (microseconds) like the old CRT.

 

 

 

Meleeitonme: Ugh, This TV Lags!

 

 

 

Maybe in a future the OLED or new Q-LED panels and internal hardware will bring microseconds of lag.

 

 

Now big TV panels (IPS LED) lags about less than 1 frame -> 16 milliseconds. All of them are still usable to play for majority of games.

 

 

Display Input Lag Database

Edited November 29, 2017 by gulps

[Wolf_]

 

 

 

For me actual reference point is a RGB CRT TV standards clone.

 

This means a pixel perfect screen (integer scaling) with all 100% RGB colour accuracy, contrast and brightness, and of course with minimal lag (microseconds) like the old CRT.

 

 

 

Meleeitonme: Ugh, This TV Lags!

 

 

 

Maybe in a future the OLED or new Q-LED panels and internal hardware will bring microseconds of lag.

 

 

Now big TV panels (IPS LED) lags about less than 1 frame -> 16 milliseconds. All of them are still usable to play for majority of games.

 

 

Display Input Lag Database

 

 

IPS LED

 

In fairness to lcd/led/oled/digital displays in general as you said as long as it is under 16ms it is less than a frame of lag so if you are going from the natively output hdmi of the super nt or an ossc converer/upscaler to a display with less than 16ms input lag then you are still frame accurate (depending on your clock speed setting in the super nt which hopefully has a standard option and not just the sped up for compatibility version). Even speedrunners that sometimes have to time reactions to the frame wouldn't be able to complain about that.

 

That comparison makes it sound like all digital displays will add ~2 frames (30ms) of input lag but that simply isn't the case at all. There are plenty of affordable non-oled displays that offer under 16ms of input lag. Standard gaming monitors aim for 5ms or less.

[Keatah]

Even one of my shitbox samsung syncmasters gets me under 10ms response time.

[gulps]

In fairness to lcd/led/oled/digital displays in general as you said as long as it is under 16ms it is less than a frame of lag so if you are going from the natively output hdmi of the super nt or an ossc converer/upscaler to a display with less than 16ms input lag then you are still frame accurate (depending on your clock speed setting in the super nt which hopefully has a standard option and not just the sped up for compatibility version). Even speedrunners that sometimes have to time reactions to the frame wouldn't be able to complain about that.

 

That comparison makes it sound like all digital displays will add ~2 frames (30ms) of input lag but that simply isn't the case at all. There are plenty of affordable non-oled displays that offer under 16ms of input lag. Standard gaming monitors aim for 5ms or less.

 

 

The "5ms from standard gaming monitor" is not really true: gray-to-gray specs

 

 

 

Why IS there black-to-white and gray-to-gray? Why not stick to one?

 

Simple answer: money. Display manufacturers know that going from black-to-white takes longer than it does for it to go from gray-to-gray. It makes more sense for them to advertise the fastest number, because it makes the display look more attractive in the consumer’s eyes. Unless you are comparing displays fairly (using either GTG or BTW), you shouldn’t read too deeply into this measurement.

 

DisplayLag: Exposed: Input Lag vs. Response Time

[Wolf_]

 

 

The "5ms from standard gaming monitor" is not really true: gray-to-gray specs

 

 

 

DisplayLag: Exposed: Input Lag vs. Response Time

It really is. All 16 pages of these beg to differ

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#T=1,5

[Schizophretard]

I think you guys debating about reference quality and so forth are thinking too deeply about this when it is quite simple:

 

1. Buy Nt Mini.

2. Unplug NES from CRT in retro game room.

3. Put Nt Mini in NES' old spot and plug into CRT in retro game room.

4. Nt Mini becomes perfect replacement hardware for NES.

 

1. Buy Super Nt.

2. Don't unplug Super NES from retro game room.

3. Put Super Nt in livingroom with other modern consoles and devices and plug into flat panel TV or buy flat panel TV for retro game room exclusively for using the Super Nt while making room for it with the CRT that everything else is plugged into.

4. Super Nt doesn't become perfect replacement hardware for Super NES.

 

For those who have bought or will buy the Nt Mini to enjoy it on a CRT with the included analog outputs is it a reasonable desire to hope that they can buy the Super Nt to enjoy it the exact same way and not feel left out by Analogue switching their focus to only catering to their customers with an HDMI preference? Yes. Is it reasonable to equate ditching analog outputs along with the customers with that preference to ditching an expensive aluminum shell? No. It is really that simple.

[Tusecsy]

I think you guys debating about reference quality and so forth are thinking too deeply about this when it is quite simple:

 

1. Buy Nt Mini.

2. Unplug NES from CRT in retro game room.

3. Put Nt Mini in NES' old spot and plug into CRT in retro game room.

4. Nt Mini becomes perfect replacement hardware for NES.

 

1. Buy Super Nt.

2. Don't unplug Super NES from retro game room.

3. Put Super Nt in livingroom with other modern consoles and devices and plug into flat panel TV or buy flat panel TV for retro game room exclusively for using the Super Nt while making room for it with the CRT that everything else is plugged into.

4. Super Nt doesn't become perfect replacement hardware for Super NES.

 

For those who have bought or will buy the Nt Mini to enjoy it on a CRT with the included analog outputs is it a reasonable desire to hope that they can buy the Super Nt to enjoy it the exact same way and not feel left out by Analogue switching their focus to only catering to their customers with an HDMI preference? Yes. Is it reasonable to equate ditching analog outputs along with the customers with that preference to ditching an expensive aluminum shell? No. It is really that simple.

much better options...

 

1. Sell NT Mini

2. Buy Super NT

3. Throw away CRT

 

really is that simple.