FPGA Based Videogame System

[Kismet]

 

Isn't it possible to downconvert HDMI to an analog output with an outside box? It must be cheaper than the other way around.

Certainly purists might prefer an all-in-one solution, and many downconverters are crappy, but I do wonder if it's viable and in that case it would count as a replacement, wouldn't it?

 

A HDMI to VGA output is cheaper. A HDMI to RGB PVM is likely the same trick. The Framemeister and OSSC are both FPGA devices, while the reverse isn't.

[Toth]

much better options...

 

1. Sell NT Mini

2. Buy Super NT

3. Throw away CRT

 

really is that simple.

How would he play Nintendo games then?

[Riptide]

[deleted]

disregard

Edited November 30, 2017 by Riptide

[cfillak]

How would he play Nintendo games then?

I think they're assuming the NES/Famicom core will be ported to the Super NT, which imo is not a foregone conclusion, especially if the NT Mini keeps getting manufactured.

[Tusecsy]

How would he play Nintendo games then?

 

 

I think they're assuming the NES/Famicom core will be ported to the Super NT, which imo is not a foregone conclusion, especially if the NT Mini keeps getting manufactured.

Wanna bet?

[Newsdee]

A HDMI to VGA output is cheaper. A HDMI to RGB PVM is likely the same trick. The Framemeister and OSSC are both FPGA devices, while the reverse isn't.

Right, so I wonder if using a Super NT with a CRT could be a replacement of the real thing assuming the converter is cheap and it does not introduce lag. For example, there are plenty of VGA to composite converters but they do not seem high quality.

[cfillak]

 

 

Wanna bet?

What's the bet? That the NES core getting ported IS a foregone conclusion and guaranteed? Sure I'll bet. Looks like I won, because there is zero confirmation that this will happen from Analogue or anybody who would know. I didn't say I thought the NES core would never come to the Super NT. I just said it's not guaranteed, because it's not, because we have no information from official sources.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I wonder how much of the price differential between the NT Mini comes from axing the DAC.

Cost savings from NT Mini -> Super NT:

-Plastic shell instead of aluminum

-2 controller ports instead of 4

-1 cartridge slot instead of 2

-No Famicom expansion port or microphone port

-Maybe no USB port for controller charging (not sure if we've seen every angle of the system yet)?

-USB power supply (idk if this is a savings)

-No bundled controller/receiver

-No Video/Audio DAC

 

Cost increases:

-Bigger/more powerful FPGA

 

Needless to say, none of this includes the R&D costs, which Analogue have mentioned has partially allowed them to reach this price point. I'm okay with all of the above cost savings except the DAC. However, if axing the DAC was necessary to get to a sub 200$ price point, I'd say that was probably the right business move. We should want these FPGA systems to be as widely sold as possible, because thats how we eventually get to something like the Zimba 3000, even if it ends up being an open source box with cores developed by people inspired by Kevtris' work rather than Kevtris himself. My main objection to no analog video is that it makes the Super NT not quite a full replacement for an OEM SNES in the way the NT Mini was for NES/Famicom.

 

But either way, I have an NT Mini and pre-ordered a Super NT, and will probably buy every console Analogue releases for the forseeable future. That had me thinking about an Analogue Genesis. The fact that Genesis used a 9-pin controller port means that we'd be able to use all those wacky old school controllers for Atari, Colecovision, Astrocade and stuff right? (Assuming any cores get ported).

Analog output not only requires multiple DACs but also NTSC encoders and a whole bunch of other junk. The super NT has slightly fewer available I/O pins in the cartridge port and connectors, so that shaves off some complexity, but I think it's clear to see the elephant in the room was the aluminum block. That is not a cheap component. And I feel like people can just use the analog outputs from original hardware if they desparately need to use tube tvs (ie lightgun).

 

More like

 

1. Buy Super NT

2. Throw away broken SNES/FC systems

 

With additional bonus of

3. Throw away rubbish CRT's and LCD panels kept around for their analog inputs.

 

The Framemeister/OSSC would be considered redundant with a SuperNT, and since the SNES is the hardest console to get to work on these, that also solves that issue.

 

Regardless if the SuperNT gets JB'd or not is irrelevant. The matter of fact is that most of the 1990 SHVC-CPU-01 production units are dead or dying either due to CPU chip failure, bad caps, or chassis plastic (yellowing) making them brittle. It's very possible to get a NOS unopened model from 1990, plug it in, and it won't work.

I fail to see the SNES CPU as a ticking time bomb. My SNES still runs fine, and if it ever develops issues or quits working, I'll just perform a recap. All my 80s and 90s consoles are running strong. Fortunately the US Turbografx, Genesis Model 1 (even though I have the VA7 with "grunge" audio, it sounds perfect through the headphone jack hooked to the sound system) predate the plague capacitors, and Nintendo hardware used Japanese caps rather than the faulty Taiwanese caps that suffered from drying out over time.

[Tusecsy]

What's the bet? That the NES core getting ported IS a foregone conclusion and guaranteed? Sure I'll bet. Looks like I won, because there is zero confirmation that this will happen from Analogue or anybody who would know. I didn't say I thought the NES core would never come to the Super NT. I just said it's not guaranteed, because it's not, because we have no information from official sources.

 

The bet is that the core will come to the Super NT, say, within the first month after release. It's guaranteed.

[Riptide]

The bet is that the core will come to the Super NT, say, within the first month after release. It's guaranteed.

I just said it's not guaranteed, because it's not, because we have no information from official sources.

[Kismet]

Analog output not only requires multiple DACs but also NTSC encoders and a whole bunch of other junk. The super NT has slightly fewer available I/O pins in the cartridge port and connectors, so that shaves off some complexity, but I think it's clear to see the elephant in the room was the aluminum block. That is not a cheap component. And I feel like people can just use the

 

I fail to see the SNES CPU as a ticking time bomb. My SNES still runs fine, and if it ever develops issues or quits working, I'll just perform a recap. All my 80s and 90s consoles are running strong. Fortunately the US Turbografx, Genesis Model 1 (even though I have the VA7 with "grunge" audio, it sounds perfect through the headphone jack hooked to the sound system) predate the plague capacitors, and Nintendo hardware used Japanese caps rather than the faulty Taiwanese caps that suffered from drying out over time.

 

Did you not see my picture of 3 dead SNES and one dead FC all SHVC-CPU-01 boards? They are ticking time bombs. Meanwhile my two NES systems which have been thrown in junk bins and been thrown around, still work, and they're much older. The first SNES that died was left in it's original packaging for a few years before trying to power it on, so no, the CPU absolutely is a time bomb, and doesn't even need to be powered on to do so.

 

The GPM-02 that I have is the one that works and it only differs from the CPU-01 in revisions the chips and doesn't have the metal RF shield around the APU chips. A GPM-02 is also the one that jwdonal scoped for VeriSNES. So that model might last longer, but I'm not going to assume that it will last another 20 years, since you can't buy CRT's and a lot of analog video equipment is going to disappear over that time.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Kismet

[phoenixdownita]

.... and doesn't have the mental .....

I believe that's a good thing, right?

[cfillak]

 

The bet is that the core will come to the Super NT, say, within the first month after release. It's guaranteed.

Congrats on your employment at Analogue! It must be cool getting to hang out with Kevtris and grab beers after work.

[cfillak]

 

Did you not see my picture of 3 dead SNES and one dead FC all SHVC-CPU-01 boards? They are ticking time bombs. Meanwhile my two NES systems which have been thrown in junk bins and been thrown around, still work, and they're much older. The first SNES that died was left in it's original packaging for a few years before trying to power it on, so no, the CPU absolutely is a time bomb, and doesn't even need to be powered on to do so.

 

The GPM-02 that I have is the one that works and it only differs from the CPU-01 in revisions the chips and doesn't have the metal RF shield around the APU chips. A GPM-02 is also the one that jwdonal scoped for VeriSNES. So that model might last longer, but I'm not going to assume that it will last another 20 years, since you can't buy CRT's and a lot of analog video equipment is going to disappear over that time.

 

I don't have the security bit screwdriver thing to open up my dead SNES to check the board revision, but I'm chiming in here as someone who also has a dead SNES. We got it new at retail at some point AFTER we got our N64, so probably sometime in 97-99. A few months ago, I also saw a woman bring her old SNES into a retro game shop in Chicago to see if they could diagnose what was wrong with it, turned out to be some kind of component failure that was beyond repair, so she bought a new one.

Edited December 1, 2017 by cfillak

[brentonius]

 

I don't have the security bit screwdriver thing to open up my dead SNES to check the board revision, but I'm chiming in here as someone who also has a dead SNES. We got it new at retail at some point AFTER we got our N64, so probably sometime in 97-99. A few months ago, I also saw a woman bring her old SNES into a retro game shop in Chicago to see if they could diagnose what was wrong with it, turned out to be some kind of component failure that was beyond repair, so she bought a new one.

 

I have to chime in. I spent a few years repairing old retro consoles when I didn't have much money and wanted to collect. I raised a lot of systems from the dead. I polished them up from 'junk' to really great condition. When it comes to the SNES, I'm not an expert, but I've talked to a lot of folks I'd consider experts. Why? Because I was getting pissed off at the fact that I was not successful in repairing SNES machines. I mean, I had successfully repaired pretty much every NES I've come across except one that may have had a bad chip which always gave me garbled graphics. The quantity of successful NES repairs is sky high compared to SNES repairs. Why?

 

SNES consoles get what is known as the black screen of death, they're toast. I've come across many dozens of these. I used to actually buy non-working consoles on Craigslist for very little, for trade, or even just get them for free. I would always gather them from sellers at flea markets who would save them just for me. I could fix every SNES console that didn't have the black screen of death. But actually I gave up fixing SNES consoles because now I'm just not interested in the time investment. The fact of the matter is that some SNES consoles just die. The chips go bad. And there's nothing we can do about it. There seems to be no cure. Changing the caps won't help. We have tried that. The only fix we know of it to cannibalize chips from two non-working systems and then make a working system out of the two.

 

There's a problem with many of these machines. Mind you, I've never had one 'go bad' (ie. from functional to non-functional) myself. But from what I hear, a lot of people will store their SNES in a closet for a few years, or just leave it for a while, and when they try to operate it, it does not work. Black screen of death for no reason. I don't know if indeed something short circuited a chip or something, but they just die and it's sad. I really hope that this is just a problem with *some* SNES consoles and not all, but I do worry.

 

Therefore, I applaud Kevtris for his work and Analogue for their support. It's really important to me that we have a modern FPGA version of the SNES. These machines will be brand new as of 2018 while I have a very long and growing list of SNES consoles dying. This means we have a machine with a great library of games being saved for all time. Sure, maybe some SNES consoles will last your lifetime. Maybe.. But at least we have insurance now. And for that, I am grateful.

[cfillak]

 

 

 

Therefore, I applaud Kevtris for his work and Analogue for their support. It's really important to me that we have a modern FPGA version of the SNES. These machines will be brand new as of 2018 while I have a very long and growing list of SNES consoles dying. This means we have a machine with a great library of games being saved for all time. Sure, maybe some SNES consoles will last your lifetime. Maybe.. But at least we have insurance now. And for that, I am grateful.

This is why i think it's important for analog video to be included, either with an external box or a premium revision. I want a solution that preserves all of the capabilities of the original hardware plus added features. Luckily within the next few years, we'll probably have everything in the 4th generation and below covered by an FPGA solution, give or take a few CD add-ons maybe. I also love how obscure consoles are able to piggy back off people's desire for a modern solution for their favorite old console. I think it's so cool that I can have like a mini tour through history on the NT Mini. I'm also hoping the widespread availability of these affordable FPGA consoles will tank the value of original hardware and cartridges on the resale market, but this will depend on how many people buy that stuff for use or just fetishism.

[Newsdee]

Hopefully we'll see not only FPGA consoles but also open source cores, so that they are future proof. This work is great to preserve the feeling of the original machines.

[Toth]

My Original SNES got the black screen of death. It worked fine when I stored it and years later when I took it out of the box it just wouldn't work. Light turns on but the screen is black. I think it was a newer model as well because the case never turned yellow. I believe my original was also a model that didn't have the metal shielding that the older models had as I had to remove the shielding in order to swap cases. I bought a super cheap, terrible looking yellow one on ebay that worked and swapped cases and have a working one now. I'll probably stop replacing it once my PVM monitors give out and CRT TVs get harder to find (people on craigslist are already asking up to hundreds of dollars for the good Sony 20 inch models that aren't huge knowing people use them for "retro" gaming. I have no interest in the really large CRTs that people give away for free. Someone had a BVM on there for $1,100 recently as well, lol). I have a Super NT on pre-order.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Toth

[F34R]

My OG SNES, meaning the launch SNES, is will working just fine /crosses fingers

[Tusecsy]

 

Did you not see my picture of 3 dead SNES and one dead FC all SHVC-CPU-01 boards? They are ticking time bombs. Meanwhile my two NES systems which have been thrown in junk bins and been thrown around, still work, and they're much older. The first SNES that died was left in it's original packaging for a few years before trying to power it on, so no, the CPU absolutely is a time bomb, and doesn't even need to be powered on to do so.

 

The GPM-02 that I have is the one that works and it only differs from the CPU-01 in revisions the chips and doesn't have the metal RF shield around the APU chips. A GPM-02 is also the one that jwdonal scoped for VeriSNES. So that model might last longer, but I'm not going to assume that it will last another 20 years, since you can't buy CRT's and a lot of analog video equipment is going to disappear over that time.

Do the SNES Mini's have the same problem? I'm not well versed on the specific CPUs.

[Tusecsy]

Congrats on your employment at Analogue! It must be cool getting to hang out with Kevtris and grab beers after work.

 

I work from home. They just pay me to go on internet forums and hype up products which don't need it.

[Riptide]

Do the SNES Mini's have the same problem? I'm not well versed on the specific CPUs.

From my understanding the JR uses the same CPU as the 1-chip so I would assume so.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

I work from home. They just pay me to go on internet forums and hype up products which don't need it.

Trolololo.....

 

Well at least you admitted it. I seriously doubt you're getting paid for it though.

[retro_fan]

Hopefully we'll see not only FPGA consoles but also open source cores, so that they are future proof. This work is great to preserve the feeling of the original machines.

 

Well... Kevtris did not say that he will never open source his cores:

 

"No, I will not be open sourcing anything unless someone pays me a lot of money, then I might :-) Or if the project took off and got popular I might as well."

 

Of course, now he's working for Analogue (and I hope he's really well-paid), but what will the future bring, we'll see... With each new hardware release Kevtris gets more and more popular, and with the release of the Zimba 3000 living off something like Patreon might become a possibility and at that point we actually might persuade Kevtris with our money to open-source some of the cores. There is also crowdfunding, and probably other options. Whatever he will decide, I always keep my fingers crossed for him.

[Andromeda Stardust]

From my understanding the JR uses the same CPU as the 1-chip so I would assume so.

OT, but I'm curious if my SNES is affected. I have a "1-chip" gray brick SNES (no yellowing ), serial UN301461678 with OEM old style cart lock-in tabs installed, preventing game removal while powered on. Some people may wonder how that's possible since the lock in tabs were removed (along with newer "ramp" style cart redesign) well before the 1-chip era. Well for whatever reason it bothered me that this part was "missing" from my SNES, so some years ago, I ordered the missing part online from NES repair shop. It is still available for those who want one.

 

Anyway my SNES still plays flawlessly with no signs of stopping anytime soon. Is my SNES a ticking time bomb for BSOD, or am I safe from harm's way?