FPGA Based Videogame System

[Shin_K]

An FPGA arcade system that could play classic arcade boards flawlessly would be my dream come true! Especially the old Capcom boards for SF2, Alien vs Predator, the D&D arcade game, etc!

You mean a CPS1/CPS2 FPGA. That would be so amazing

[Loukey]

Wow it totally flew over my head that the controllers would be colored identically as the consoles.. I'm not sure I'd be a huge fan of the all-black or all-transparent gamepads. But maybe seeing them IRL would be a different story.

 

Heheh I ordered one transparent and one black controller because I was thinking those would look good together . I’ll let ya know how they look when they arrive tomorrow.

[retro_fan]

I dont understand what you mean, composite is the analog source and hdmi digital. You dont use hdmi cable to test composite signal.

 

Maybe there are some communication issues because of the language barrier. Have you tried posting in your native language? A nice post summing up all your problems. Possibly someone will translate it, and you won't have to post over and over again about the same stuff...

[cfillak]

 

Maybe there are some communication issues because of the language barrier. Have you tried posting in your native language? A nice post summing up all your problems. Possibly someone will translate it, and you won't have to post over and over again about the same stuff...

I would tell him to just order this: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2509instead of using his own homemade cable, but it's out of stock.

[scott64]

I held off on ordering a matching controller with my Super NT because I already have an older style SFC30 controller and a retro receiver for SNES. Once people start receiving the controllers I'd be interested to hear if they're any different than the previous 8bitdo controllers, aside from obvious cosmetic changes.

[cfillak]

You mean a CPS1/CPS2 FPGA. That would be so amazing

I'm hoping future work on Genesis/Neo Geo cores provide some groundwork for CPS1/2 as they're all Motorola 68K based. The only boards that are probably worth the effort of an FPGA core are the "one-to-many" boards where they function essentially like a game console, with swappable ROMs.

[Sho]

I held off on ordering a matching controller with my Super NT because I already have an older style SFC30 controller and a retro receiver for SNES. Once people start receiving the controllers I'd be interested to hear if they're any different than the previous 8bitdo controllers, aside from obvious cosmetic changes.

 

I'll definitely report back and let you know -- I simply got a matching controller to complete the set, but I own an original SN30 and SF30, both with receivers.

 

I doubt there will be any different and will very likely use the exact same firmwares.

 

---

 

Also a question for Kevtris, should he read this -- were you able to obtain and play with some of these more obscure accessories like the Exertainment Bike, the Sufami Turbo or the M.A.C.S. M16 Rifle? Perhaps the SNES Burn in Cart?

Edited February 1, 2018 by Sho

[cacophony]

 

Maybe there are some communication issues because of the language barrier. Have you tried posting in your native language? A nice post summing up all your problems. Possibly someone will translate it, and you won't have to post over and over again about the same stuff...

 

My guess is that RadikusRLZ is trying to confirm that the composite output works properly, but only has an HDMI TV + framemeister. But I agree that this discussion has been mostly pointless due to the lack of actual specifics, and perhaps communicating in a different language would help.

[Kismet]

 

Also once again, you clearly detest speed hacks but you never answered my question, if speed hacks don't cause any glitches in the game you are playing and optimize your performance to be at the same amount of input lag most people have trying to play retro games anyways then what is wrong with them? "Oh no I'm getting more performance but not in the same way as the original hardware and it isn't causing any problems ahhhhh"

 

And I never mentioned anything about pis, just that emulation is in many cases far superior to original hardware.

 

Speedhacks always cause glitches, if you perceive them to be a detriment to your play is another story.

 

https://floating.muncher.se/byuu/accuracy/

 

Once again, I need to point out the problem of how speedhacks make speedrunning and other kinds of 1:1 tournaments difficult. If you setup a speedrun (as GDQ has been doing) they have to use the original hardware currently, thus making streaming also something of a pain in the butt. People who learned on software emulators are going to be screwed by the kind of absurd claims made by the RetroArch people. I don't know why they are trying so hard to go "my emulator is better than real hardware" when that is never true, and can never be true. If you put one person on real hardware and one person on software emulation to do the same speed run, and then have them switch, the person who trained on the software emulator will botch their speed run pretty quick from the input timing alone, while the person who trained on real hardware may botch their speed run as soon as some known "glitch/bug/unintended gameplay feature" doesn't work on the software emulator because of the speedhacks. Some of these hacks end up never being fixed. Thus with "new" accurate SNES hardware people will again start complaining about random crap they pirated off the internet only working on some inaccurate SNES software emulator. I actually encountered this on day one with the SD2SNES when I pulled my original 1999 translated patch for a game I have and put the game on the SD2SNES, and lo and behold intro to the game is all busted, but yet worked in SNES9x and even ZSNES before it. Someone out there re-patched the game to fix it in 2014.

 

If you are just playing the game, and do not care about anything (eg game experience, lp'ing, streaming, speed runs, tournaments, multiplayer), then the Super NT is not for you anyway.

[Pixelboy]

Are we going to have a new thread for the Super Nt console when it is in our hands? This general FPGA thread is great, but it's also very busy. I would prefer to read Super Nt news separately.

Same here. I'm sure someone will create such a thread when the time is right.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Some of these hacks end up never being fixed. Thus with "new" accurate SNES hardware people will again start complaining about random crap they pirated off the internet only working on some inaccurate SNES software emulator. I actually encountered this on day one with the SD2SNES when I pulled my original 1999 translated patch for a game I have and put the game on the SD2SNES, and lo and behold intro to the game is all busted, but yet worked in SNES9x and even ZSNES before it. Someone out there re-patched the game to fix it in 2014.

The world of n64 hacking is in a similar state of affairs right now. The tools used to deflate N64 ROMs so that the assets can be manipulated, break the ROM when played back on an Everdrive. So much of the fabulous Mario64 ROM hacks can not run at all on real hardware, and probably won't work on future more accurate emulators either.

 

And despite all the developments regarding N64 hardware development, software emulators and the hacking scene at large are just as broken now as they were some decade ago when Toad's Tool debuted. It's sad that I can't play these wonderful creations on real equipment and must rely on janky pc emulators.

[kevtris]

 

I'll definitely report back and let you know -- I simply got a matching controller to complete the set, but I own an original SN30 and SF30, both with receivers.

 

I doubt there will be any different and will very likely use the exact same firmwares.

 

---

 

Also a question for Kevtris, should he read this -- were you able to obtain and play with some of these more obscure accessories like the Exertainment Bike, the Sufami Turbo or the M.A.C.S. M16 Rifle? Perhaps the SNES Burn in Cart?

the bike uses the expansion port so nope. I have a sufami turbo; works fine. the rifle is light gun based probably so nope, and the burn in cart works fine (I used that a lot for testing)

[Wolf_]

 

Speedhacks always cause glitches, if you perceive them to be a detriment to your play is another story.

 

https://floating.muncher.se/byuu/accuracy/

 

Once again, I need to point out the problem of how speedhacks make speedrunning and other kinds of 1:1 tournaments difficult. If you setup a speedrun (as GDQ has been doing) they have to use the original hardware currently, thus making streaming also something of a pain in the butt. People who learned on software emulators are going to be screwed by the kind of absurd claims made by the RetroArch people. I don't know why they are trying so hard to go "my emulator is better than real hardware" when that is never true, and can never be true. If you put one person on real hardware and one person on software emulation to do the same speed run, and then have them switch, the person who trained on the software emulator will botch their speed run pretty quick from the input timing alone, while the person who trained on real hardware may botch their speed run as soon as some known "glitch/bug/unintended gameplay feature" doesn't work on the software emulator because of the speedhacks. Some of these hacks end up never being fixed. Thus with "new" accurate SNES hardware people will again start complaining about random crap they pirated off the internet only working on some inaccurate SNES software emulator. I actually encountered this on day one with the SD2SNES when I pulled my original 1999 translated patch for a game I have and put the game on the SD2SNES, and lo and behold intro to the game is all busted, but yet worked in SNES9x and even ZSNES before it. Someone out there re-patched the game to fix it in 2014.

 

If you are just playing the game, and do not care about anything (eg game experience, lp'ing, streaming, speed runs, tournaments, multiplayer), then the Super NT is not for you anyway.

You do realize the article you linked to which shows the correct behavior shows that correct behavior on an emulator... that is included with retroarch... right?

 

And I've proven pretty well how emulators are better than real hardware so I won't bother to repeat myself other than to say you are wrong.

 

If people learn on one system and switch to a different system obviously that is going to screw them up regardless of which one is "better". Also you seem to think everyone that plays retro games is doing speed runs when it is an extremely niche group of a niche group. Most people are not doing things that require reactions accurate to the frame and will never even notice minor graphical glitches when presented with side by side comparison pictures.

 

And your last comment just doesn't make any sense at all. Plenty of people play on emulators and care about those things and I could also see someone picking up a Super NT without caring that it is 100% accurate and just being excited that it is hdmi snes or that it can play their carts, like a retron5 but without burning their house down.

[phoenixdownita]

.... Though it sounds like you grew up on digital media, so it's understandable that you wouldn't realize this.

Nope, I grew up with carts (VCS2600 mostly but friends had Intellivision, Creativision and Colecovision), tapes for home computers (C64, ZX Spectrum, MSX, Atari 800XL), 5 1/4 inches floppy (C64/C128/8086PC) then 3 1/2 inches floppy (Amiga & Atari ST & 386/486PC) and I really did not "enjoy" any of that, it was a byproduct of the media tech available at the time, none of it is integral to the "experience" (that's obviously my own opinion) but for sure I am waaaaaaaaaay too old to "enjoy" waiting 5 minutes for a C64 game to load from a tape.

 

I personally only care about playing the games and I like them to be as lag free as possible and as close to the original as possible (artifacting if/when needed should be reproduced, TowerToppler on 7800 looks like shit without) while enjoying modern day comforts like a big screen TV, space saving flash media etc... etc.....

I am not saying that you (or anyone else) should NOT collect the carts, stare at the artwork, uncrease the manuals, play on CRT etc.... but that at a certain point it has nothing to do with the simple act of PLAYING the game themselves.

 

FPGA based consoles (at least the one Kevtris is producing for Analogue) enable to have your cake and eat it to .... high fidelity to the original while using modern tech for display at the price of a minor tweak to the console clocks and some scaling ..... totally worthy, especially if you switched from 50Hz play of my youth to 60Hz play of my "mature" age (maybe "rotten" is a better word).

 

If collecting carts is your thing by any means enjoy. If box/label artwork is your thing also enjoy it .... but neither of those have really that much to do with the games themselves.

Maybe I had the luck to play a lot of videogames as a communal experience with friends and rarely on my own, so it was always about the games and enjoyment of a group of friends around the console/homecomputer .... in that scenario you see there's little to no interest in the act of inserting/removing a cart/tape or stare at the artwork on a plastic box etc.... again our opinion are based off of our experience and I have no problem conceding that other people have different opinions.

[Sho]

the bike uses the expansion port so nope. I have a sufami turbo; works fine. the rifle is light gun based probably so nope, and the burn in cart works fine (I used that a lot for testing)

 

Very cool, may have to import Sufami Turbo and a few mini carts since they are so cheap then.

 

I assume the Burn In Test cart was the Revision D/Evaluation version? I've seen Rev A/B/C make the rounds for exceptionally high amounts on eBay. A shame no one has attempted to dump any of them outside of Rev D. Cool that it works with the Super NT as well -- I assume we could also check out own consoles for chip failures if we have our own carts/repros then, lol.

 

Finally, how about the Retrobit Super Retro Advance Adapter or Artemio's 240P Test Suite?

[Kismet]

The world of n64 hacking is in a similar state of affairs right now. The tools used to deflate N64 ROMs so that the assets can be manipulated, break the ROM when played back on an Everdrive. So much of the fabulous Mario64 ROM hacks can not run at all on real hardware, and probably won't work on future more accurate emulators either.

 

And despite all the developments regarding N64 hardware development, software emulators and the hacking scene at large are just as broken now as they were some decade ago when Toad's Tool debuted. It's sad that I can't play these wonderful creations on real equipment and must rely on janky pc emulators.

 

I'm less concerned about gee-wow hacks and more concerned with translations and asset patch fixes. The game I referenced had to be decompressed and recompressed to patch the Japanese artwork and maps (this is a game I fumbled through once in Japanese) and thus the translation was only ever available for like 15 years in this broken state because nobody cared enough to try it on real hardware. Or so I figure.

 

While I don't really give a care one way or the other about most romhacks, the matter still stands that there will be broken stuff out there, entirely caused the piracy websites distributing stuff pre-patched and they have no means of testing on real hardware, and the downloader has no means of knowing what version it is.

 

You do realize the article you linked to which shows the correct behavior shows that correct behavior on an emulator... that is included with retroarch... right?

 

 

Yes, and that is a very old version, thus proving my point again about accuracy.

 

If people want the authentic game experience, they need to play with the original controllers on a device that is hardware accurate. They don't necessarily need to be playing off the original cartridge, but that is still an option.

 

 

From my perspective, I'd rather buy the SuperNT , test everything and then hand it to my sister so her kid can play it with the real carts when he's old enough to not chew on the controllers. There should be more SuperNT's in stock in a few years I hope. My sister on the other hand would be content with just a SNES-mini if they would ever be restocked anywhere out here, but so far I have not seen one.

[Wolf_]

 

Yes, and that is a very old version, thus proving my point again about accuracy.

But the newer versions would obviously have even better accuracy as bsnes has been updated multiple times since then... if anything that makes your point about minor graphical glitches even less relevant because of how accurate that emulator is now.

[Sho]

Nope, I grew up with carts (VCS2600 mostly but friends had Intellivision, Creativision and Colecovision), tapes for home computers (C64, ZX Spectrum, MSX, Atari 800XL), 5 1/4 inches floppy (C64/C128/8086PC) then 3 1/2 inches floppy (Amiga & Atari ST & 386/486PC) and I really did not "enjoy" any of that, it was a byproduct of the media tech available at the time, none of it is integral to the "experience" (that's obviously my own opinion) but for sure I am waaaaaaaaaay too old to "enjoy" waiting 5 minutes for a C64 game to load from a tape.

 

I personally only care about playing the games and I like them to be as lag free as possible and as close to the original as possible (artifacting if/when needed should be reproduced, TowerToppler on 7800 looks like shit without) while enjoying modern day comforts like a big screen TV, space saving flash media etc... etc.....

I am not saying that you (or anyone else) should NOT collect the carts, stare at the artwork, uncrease the manuals, play on CRT etc.... but that at a certain point it has nothing to do with the simple act of PLAYING the game themselves.

 

FPGA based consoles (at least the one Kevtris is producing for Analogue) enable to have your cake and eat it to .... high fidelity to the original while using modern tech for display at the price of a minor tweak to the console clocks and some scaling ..... totally worthy, especially if you switched from 50Hz play of my youth to 60Hz play of my "mature" age (maybe "rotten" is a better word).

 

If collecting carts is your thing by any means enjoy. If box/label artwork is your thing also enjoy it .... but neither of those have really that much to do with the games themselves.

Maybe I had the luck to play a lot of videogames as a communal experience with friends and rarely on my own, so it was always about the games and enjoyment of a group of friends around the console/homecomputer .... in that scenario you see there's little to no interest in the act of inserting/removing a cart/tape or stare at the artwork on a plastic box etc.... again our opinion are based off of our experience and I have no problem conceding that other people have different opinions.

 

My apologies then! I also grew up with the Colecovision and Atari 2600 into the NES and Master System, though I was real young. It was a large part of my experience, to be fair. My friends as well -- finding various games, trading them to friends for a day/week, collecting oddities. Having friends over and shifting through a stack of games to find something together was a hell of an experience when it happened (and for me it still is). In that sense, we are cut from the same cloth as far as playing these games with others. Aside from that it was the opposite with me, as mentioned.

 

Personally, I don't care at all for the boxes or the art, nor the sake of collecting games just to collect them and have some super huge collection -- it has always just been about collecting games I like or find interesting and simply going at it. The times have changed and every thing is going digital, agreed, but it doesn't mean that everyone who collect the boxes, art and manuals simply don't play the games at all. Still collecting games still has it's place -- people take pride in collecting such items, as it becomes not only a playable item, but also a conversation piece, something to pass down to their children/family, or just a general hobby. For others, the thrill of hunting down rare/cheap game carts also still exists as well.

[brentonius]

 

My apologies then! I also grew up with the Colecovision and Atari 2600 into the NES and Master System, though I was real young. It was a large part of my experience, to be fair. My friends as well -- finding various games, trading them to friends for a day/week, collecting oddities. Having friends over and shifting through a stack of games to find something together was a hell of an experience when it happened (and for me it still is). In that sense, we are cut from the same cloth as far as playing these games with others. Aside from that it was the opposite with me, as mentioned.

 

Personally, I don't care at all for the boxes or the art, nor the sake of collecting games just to collect them and have some super huge collection -- it has always just been about collecting games I like or find interesting and simply going at it. The times have changed and every thing is going digital, agreed, but it doesn't mean that everyone who collect the boxes, art and manuals simply don't play the games at all. Still collecting games still has it's place -- people take pride in collecting such items, as it becomes not only a playable item, but also a conversation piece, something to pass down to their children/family, or just a general hobby. For others, the thrill of hunting down rare/cheap game carts also still exists as well.

 

Good show, Sho. I personally think everyone can enjoy retro gaming and collecting their own way, and you know, I have been developing a system to keep myself happy and sane. The only way to remain happy, I find, is to only collect new games digitally, while collecting physical copies for carts only. Anything CD or disc based is better off on a hard drive, I think. So I am really enjoying the new options for Dreamcast, Playstation, and Saturn which allow for games to be played from hard disk. I went down the path of buying a lot of games -- just to buy them. Just to have them. I'd try them out, play them, not really like them, but kept them in my collection -- no longer. Now, only the games I feel deserve a place in my physical collection stay. As for digital games (this includes roms on SDCards for EverDrive-style carts, purchased games on the PS4 store and such, Steam, ISOs) I feel like they are there if I want to play them and no big deal. They don't bother me because they're digital. I keep a meticulously organized system for all my roms going from Atari to the N64. I own a lot of Rom carts such as the NES Everdrive, Mega Everdrive, SD2SNES, PC Engine Everdrive, N64 Everdrive, and also the Dreamcast's USB-GDROM.

 

The systems I have a personal connection with from childhood, I'll keep the carts that mean something to me and the ones I wished I could own when I was a kid. The N64 was never a system I owned as a kid, so I sold all of my carts to people out there who could use them. For the N64, I am mentally fine with just using roms on the EverDrive. I don't care to collect for the system, I've decided. And the Dreamcast, well... GD Roms will eventually suffer from disc rot. I love the system, but I had to make the decision: I'll never actually use the discs again. Ever. I prefer the USB-GDROM immensely in every way... so I sold off all my DC games. I don't feel bad about it. I feel good. But it was a tough decision to make.

 

I'd say overall, the games that I'd never ever get rid of are my SNES, NES, and Sega Genesis games (in order of importance). They are close to my heart, and there's a certain magic to actually plugging in that cart myself rather than running a rom off an Everdrive. I know it's silly, but I still get some sort of magical feeling I cannot explain.

 

So yeah, I like having both! And I keep imagining when I am 95 years old, in a retirement home, and my SNES finally dies. It'll be just fine. I'll pull out the Analogue Super NT and off I go

 

Heh, a bit of a ramble, but screw it. Felt like it. And beer can do that

Edited February 1, 2018 by brentonius

[Andromeda Stardust]

While I don't really give a care one way or the other about most romhacks, the matter still stands that there will be broken stuff out there, entirely caused the piracy websites distributing stuff pre-patched and they have no means of testing on real hardware, and the downloader has no means of knowing what version it is.

 

In the case of N64 ROM hacking, the tools themselves used to deflate the game create broken ROMs. One common example is pointers to odd-byte indexes when the native cpu can only index even address, resulting in CPU locking up, and countless other crap that irreversibly breaks compatibility with real hardware. Prior to 2011 when that compact flash 64drive devcart emerged (predating the ed64 by a couple years), there was no real method to rest n64 romhacks on real hardware, but rather than fix their broken hacking tools, the n64 hacking community would rather write off real hardware enthusiasts in favor of superior emulation. Sorry but if it won't run on a stock n64, it isn't a valid ROM.

[kevtris]

 

Very cool, may have to import Sufami Turbo and a few mini carts since they are so cheap then.

 

I assume the Burn In Test cart was the Revision D/Evaluation version? I've seen Rev A/B/C make the rounds for exceptionally high amounts on eBay. A shame no one has attempted to dump any of them outside of Rev D. Cool that it works with the Super NT as well -- I assume we could also check out own consoles for chip failures if we have our own carts/repros then, lol.

 

Finally, how about the Retrobit Super Retro Advance Adapter or Artemio's 240P Test Suite?

It's the one with the most extensive tests. there's several of them floating around; the one I like has the big laundry list of things it tests, then does the ppu graphics demo.

 

I don't know why the adapter wouldn't work, and haven't tried the test suite.

[Sho]

It's the one with the most extensive tests. there's several of them floating around; the one I like has the big laundry list of things it tests, then does the ppu graphics demo.

 

I don't know why the adapter wouldn't work, and haven't tried the test suite.

 

Oho, I've made a repro cart of the same one you're talking about I think:

 

 

Been using it to fix up some of the the busted SNES systems I've come across as a means to learn about the console.

 

Does that PPU demo swap between 240p & 480i modes as it cycles in the static images? Running this cart over the Framemeister & SCART freaks it right out, but it's fine over composite/RF.

 

I'd imagine the Test Suite will work just fine just as it does on a normal SNES -- helps people to calibrate their TV monitors for the best possible 240p output as well as for calibration of other things. I think you might find it interesting to check out:

 

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=240p_test_suite

Edited February 1, 2018 by Sho

[kevtris]

 

Oho, I've made a repro cart of the same one you're talking about I think:

 

 

Been using it to fix up some of the the busted SNES systems I've come across as a means to learn about the console.

 

Does that PPU demo swap between 240p & 480i modes as it cycles in the static images? Running this cart over the Framemeister & SCART freaks it right out, but it's fine over composite/RF.

 

I'd imagine the Test Suite will work just fine just as it does on a normal SNES -- helps people to calibrate their TV monitors for the best possible 240p output as well as for calibration of other things. I think you might find it interesting to check out:

 

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=240p_test_suite

yep, that's the one. it is fairly thorough. I like how it will keep looping until it fails or you turn it off, so you can keep it running for a few hours.

[SubElement]

@Kevtris

 

Not sure if this is something you can answer, but does the Super Nt Mini take the same power adapter as the Nt Mini? Would love to be able to quickly unplug on for the other.

 

Also, thanks for all your hard work on both products!

[F34R]

@Kevtris

 

Not sure if this is something you can answer, but does the Super Nt Mini take the same power adapter as the Nt Mini? Would love to be able to quickly unplug on for the other.

 

Also, thanks for all your hard work on both products!

Whats in the box

• - Analogue Super Nt
• - Super Turrican - Director's Cut (digital)
• - Super Turrican 2 (digital)
• - STDC Original SNES-style box art
• - HDMI cable
• - USB cable
• - Worldwide USB Power Supply [100-240v, 50/60hz, USA/JPN plug-type]