FPGA Based Videogame System

[DarkkOne]

I hope you guys are right, but everything I've ever read from reputable sources indicates TV upscaling leads to extra input lag.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

 

It's not 720p, but this might reassure you a little bit. As you'll see, the 4k vs 1080p numbers are fractions of a millisecond different. Close enough that it's likely margin of error. Scaling from 720p to 1080p is slightly "harder" in the sense that it's fractional, but 1080p to 4k scaling isn't typically done nearest neighbor anyway, so realistically it should 1080p->4k should still involve more math (and thus more time) than 720p->1080p. So if the differences are that negligible there, they should be less for 720p.

 

Though like I said, a decade ago this wasn't as much the case. TVs didn't care about input latency at all, really, and so scaling wasn't really optimized in the slightest, so it could vary wildly. That's where most of the talk about added latency comes from. It was a relatively easy problem to "fix," it just wasn't worth anyone's time to do so back then. Now there's piles of dedicated image processing chips, the silicon is fast, the alogorithms have already been written, it doesn't really save them money to produce a TV that does it slow. In fact, it's probably *more* work to make one that does it slow, at this point.

[Beer Monkey]

You really think the scaler in the average TV is comparable to the efficiency in Kevtris' FPGA systems?

 

There's also the OSSC (also FPGA implementation but these things can be done in ASIC).

 

You don't need to buffer a frame to do scaling. You can process it per scanline or with 2 or 3 scanlines. Like the OSSC does.

 

The 2017 LG OLEDs add 1ms of latency when not receiving native 4K.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Beer Monkey

[RabidWookie]

If it's true that modern tv's aren't adding upscaling lag anymore that puts my mind at ease about my NT Mini not being obsoleted once I get a 4k tv!

[DarkkOne]

If it's true that modern tv's aren't adding upscaling lag anymore that puts my mind at ease about my NT Mini not being obsoleted once I get a 4k tv!

My 4k TV gets ~14ms of latency on a 1080p signal, which is faster than 99% of flat panels out there get, whether native resolution or upscaled.

 

Seriously. TVs are getting faster in general anyway. Even if it added 1ms (which is way more than it will add), the TV you eventually get will be far more than 1ms faster than an older flat panel. Back when people were talking about upscaling lag, the TVs were already having 3-4 frames of latency anyway. There was a definite "dark age" of TV latency, and yeah, upscaling at the time certainly made it worse.

[Andromeda Stardust]

For 32x and Sega CD, why not use multiple fpga chips?

Because $$$

[Riptide]

If it's true that modern tv's aren't adding upscaling lag anymore that puts my mind at ease about my NT Mini not being obsoleted once I get a 4k tv!

Definitely not and when you do set the mini to 720p output, going 720p->4k works out a bit better than 1080p->4k.

[Loukey]

I'd recommend buying a 32X, they're only going up in price and getting more rare. I love Kevrtris' work and have absolute faith he could bang out a perfect 32X core faster than he thinks. I think Analogue should Kickstart a Sega CD/32X add-on for their inevitable FPGA Genesis if they're concerned that the demand wouldn't justify the time and money spent. Set a goal for the kickstarter that would make it worth their time, they'd be shocked how much demand they see.

 

That sounds like a great idea. If they set the requirement for it to succeed high enough, then it could be like a preorder which can be cancelled if demand is not sufficient. The only issue is that kickstarter requires proof of concept and it might be a monumental waste of time if Kevtris does the reverse engineering and then the demand is not there. Maybe the cores he has already made count as proof of concept. I hope this happens. I'd be all over a $180 Analogue MD/SG followed by a $200

[Andromeda Stardust]

Here's my thoughts on the possibility of Jailbreak cores. Please be advised this is pure speculation on my part.

 

Did you guys ever think that perhaps the reason why Kevtris didn't drop the JB immediately is he's super duper busy? Maybe he doesn't want to release a half-baked jailbreak without all the popular special chips emulated, including FX and SA-1 which aren't available on any flash cart. Kevtris said porting over existing NT Mini cores would be easy, IF he decides to do it, and the Super NT does have room to spare on the FPGA.

 

So I think it's likely to happen at some point, but "easy" for Kevtris doesn't mean "zero work" obviously, and he has bugs to stamp out in the mean time. So please, give it a couple months. He may still surprise us yet. And if the JB doesn't come out at all, it's still one helluva nice console on it's own merits, and a great followup to my AVS (yes, I skipped the NT mini due to the exorbitant price tag and unnecessary shielding). I look forward to the Genesis followup, even if the obscure 32X and CD addons don't run on it there's still thousands of games to enjoy.

 

[original comment heavily edited to remove all mention of a certain someone who isn't here anymore]

Edited February 13, 2018 by Kosmic Stardust

[cacophony]

nvm, just deleted because I was mistaken

Edited February 13, 2018 by cacophony

[keepdreamin]

If it's true that modern tv's aren't adding upscaling lag anymore that puts my mind at ease about my NT Mini not being obsoleted once I get a 4k tv!

 

The SNES classic edition Nintendo just released does 720P ONLY. They've sold 4 million of those, being used on FHD and UHD sets across the globe. If that 720P was causing problems, we'd be hearing about it.

[cfillak]

Because $$$

Honestly I think the best we can hope for out of first generation Mega NT/Analogue MD is just an expansion port for an actual Sega CD and maybe somebody will create a some kind of adapter so we can plug the analog out from the DAC into the AV In on the 32X, and just only have analog output on the 32X, and upscale it. Come to think of it, I think this is inevitable for the 32X. As long as the Mega NT's case isn't some weird shape that disallows the 32X from being plugged into it, and the Genesis core is sufficiently accurate, it should just work right? This means that it'll be MORE expensive for Analogue to have some kind of support for the more successful of the 2 add-ons, with whatever the expansion port costs.

 

This actually makes me think of my hope for the Analogue DAC add-on having an HDMI pass-through, with the ability to switch between "DAC mode" and HDMI pass-through with a controller hotkey. Then you could have the HDMI pass-through plugged into your TV, then the DAC output could be plugged into the 32X AV In, with the 32X AV Out upscaled however.

[RabidWookie]

 

The SNES classic edition Nintendo just released does 720P ONLY. They've sold 4 million of those, being used on FHD and UHD sets across the globe. If that 720P was causing problems, we'd be hearing about it.

The market for the SNES mini, a laggy emulator box, largely doesn't know what input lag is in the first place.

[RabidWookie]

 

That sounds like a great idea. If they set the requirement for it to succeed high enough, then it could be like a preorder which can be cancelled if demand is not sufficient. The only issue is that kickstarter requires proof of concept and it might be a monumental waste of time if Kevtris does the reverse engineering and then the demand is not there. Maybe the cores he has already made count as proof of concept. I hope this happens. I'd be all over a $180 Analogue MD/SG followed by a $200

Kickstarter wouldn't require any of the work to be done, Kevtris' prior work is the proof of concept. It'd be a risk-free way to do something really special.

[keepdreamin]

The market for the SNES mini, a laggy emulator box, largely doesn't know what input lag is in the first place.

 

Uh, that thing has sold like hot cakes within the retro gaming community, AND the general public so....

 

Plenty of people who would notice are using it. To me personally, it felt the same as playing SNES through my Framemeister. Which is pretty damn good for a cheap emulator box.

Edited February 13, 2018 by keepdreamin

[Toth]

I think every single phone I have owned that has had an AMOLED display has shown burn in after two years in the navigation bar and notification area. Are OLED TVs less susceptible to this? I would hesitate to drop that kind of money on an OLED TV because of my experience with phones and burn in.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Toth

[cfillak]

Did you ever think that perhaps the reason why Kevtris didn't drop the JB immediately is he's super duper busy? Maybe he doesn't want to release a half-baked jailbreak without all the popular special chips emulated, including FX and SA-1 which aren't available on any flash cart. Kevtris said porting over existing NT Mini cores would be easy, IF he decides to do it, and the Super NT does have room to spare on the FPGA.

 

So I think it's likely to happen at some point, but "easy" for Kevtris doesn't mean "zero work" obviously, and he has bugs to stamp out in the mean time. So please, give it a couple months. He may still surprise us yet. And if the JB doesn't come out at all, it's still one helluva nice console on it's own merits, and a great followup to my AVS (yes, I skipped the NT mini due to the exorbitant price tag and unnecessary shielding). I look forward to the Genesis followup, even if the obscure 32X and CD addons don't run on it there's still thousands of games to enjoy.

 

As for your anger issues, calm down. You're not helping your case, and only making yourself look like a donkey by threatening to file chargebacks over features that were never promised, or why a certain individual (me) doesn't want to throw away his old 720p setup. It may do you well to take a break from the computer for a bit, take a break from your games, and go take a walk outside. Dress warmly if you have too.

 

My two cents.

Ok so now we know why he's mad. He sold his NT Mini and is getting anxious that his unreasonable expectation that the Super NT feature set would be a proper superset of the NT Mini's feature set may not be met. Basic seller's remorse.

[cacophony]

Kickstarter wouldn't require any of the work to be done, Kevtris' prior work is the proof of concept. It'd be a risk-free way to do something really special.

 

Here's a business idea that's highly optimized for what we want: It's like Kickstarter except it starts with the customers, not the company. Customers can create ideas for what they want with clear criteria and a deadline. And then anybody can commit money to that idea. If the idea is accepted by a company/individual then the they get the money to do the project. If not, the money is returned.

 

So for example, somebody creates a project for TG16 core on the Super Nt with a deadline of 3 years from now and a condition that it can only be accepted by Kevin Horton. 3,000 people commit a total of $120k to the project, and then Kevin can decide whether he wants to take it or not.

Edited February 13, 2018 by cacophony

[cfillak]

I think every single phone I have owned that has had an AMOLED display has shown burn in after two years in the navigation bar and notification area. Are OLED TVs less susceptible to this? I would hesitate to drop that kind of money on an OLED TV because of my experience with phones and burn in.

I would guess phones would have a bigger problem with burn-in because of the persistent UI elements and how much more often they're used than TVs.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I just hope Kevtris knows about all the motherboard revisions and how they all sound different. Model 1 VA2 - VA6 are the ones he should use for reference. Getting that audio chip down will probably be a pita, but probably easier than the SNES audio was.

For the record, mine is the dreaded VA7. The RF and Mono audio sounds like it was pushed through a grunge guitar pedal, but you can get perfectly balanced clean stereo sound out of the console by plugging a cable into the headphone jack and feeding it directly to the sound system with the volume set to 5.

[keepdreamin]

I think every single phone I have owned that has had an AMOLED display has shown burn in after two years in the navigation bar and notification area. Are OLED TVs less susceptible to this? I would hesitate to drop that kind of money on an OLED TV because of my experience with phones and burn in.

 

They definitely can have issues with some image retention, but manufacturers have implemented maintenance modes that wipe this. But unlike your phone I doubt you're going to play one game with the same HUD graphics for two years. With normal use, I wouldn't expect the TV to show the same sort of burn in.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I think every single phone I have owned that has had an AMOLED display has shown burn in after two years in the navigation bar and notification area. Are OLED TVs less susceptible to this? I would hesitate to drop that kind of money on an OLED TV because of my experience with phones and burn in.

 

 

 

They definitely can have issues with some image retention, but manufacturers have implemented maintenance modes that wipe this. But unlike your phone I doubt you're going to play one game with the same HUD graphics for two years. With normal use, I wouldn't expect the TV to show the same sort of burn in.

 

Imagine if someone bought a new OLED TV and spent three years playing the Super NT on it with scanlines always enabled. Those same scanlines would be permanently etched into the screen when viewing normal non-retro content. That's not a design flaw, that's a feature!

[cacophony]

 

 

 

Imagine if someone bought a new OLED TV and spent three years playing the Super NT on it with scanlines always enabled. Those same scanlines would be permanently etched into the screen when viewing normal non-retro content. That's not a design flaw, that's a feature!

 

That actually sounds like a pretty sweet idea. If I ever get permanent burn in then scanlines would be the way to go!

[keepdreamin]

Imagine if someone bought a new OLED TV and spent years playing the Super NT on it with scanlines. Those same scanlines would be permanently etched into the screen when viewing normal non-retro content. That's not a design flaw, that's a feature!

 

Hmm, I wonder if there's a market for a device that would leave bright white scanlines on the screen so you could permanently burn in a retro mode for all content. Turn it on and come back a couple weeks later. It would have to have some feature to keep the TV's screen saver from coming on, maybe a quick frame drop every once in a while.

 

You might be on to a big $ money maker there.

Edited February 13, 2018 by keepdreamin

[Shin_K]

I'm gonna guess Kevtris wants to fix all the bugs first before talking about any jailbreak.

Indeed, maintaining 2 firmwares for the next 3 months sounds like a lot of uneeded work to me.

[Kismet]

Honestly I think the best we can hope for out of first generation Mega NT/Analogue MD is just an expansion port for an actual Sega CD and maybe somebody will create a some kind of adapter so we can plug the analog out from the DAC into the AV In on the 32X, and just only have analog output on the 32X, and upscale it. Come to think of it, I think this is inevitable for the 32X. As long as the Mega NT's case isn't some weird shape that disallows the 32X from being plugged into it, and the Genesis core is sufficiently accurate, it should just work right? This means that it'll be MORE expensive for Analogue to have some kind of support for the more successful of the 2 add-ons, with whatever the expansion port costs.

 

This actually makes me think of my hope for the Analogue DAC add-on having an HDMI pass-through, with the ability to switch between "DAC mode" and HDMI pass-through with a controller hotkey. Then you could have the HDMI pass-through plugged into your TV, then the DAC output could be plugged into the 32X AV In, with the 32X AV Out upscaled however.

 

It probably can't be done.

 

 

https://www.polygon.com/features/2015/2/3/7952705/sega-genesis-masami-ishikawa

 

 

Despite not working on the Mega-CD were you aware of the design process? Was the hardware complex to implement?

MI: I was told by someone who worked in the Mega-CD production department that because there were no plans to release a CD-ROM add-on when we were designing the body of the Mega Drive, it was really difficult to design the connection between the two units. It seemed, however, that Sato-san was obsessed with the idea of a CD peripheral. The solution involved attaching a metal plate adaptor to the base of the Mega Drive and then sliding it onto the CD unit. Four holes and connectors held them together — it was not screwed on to hold it in position. Another obstacle was that the Mega Drive's side extension connector slot had a carbon resistant coating to prevent rust on the copper connectors of the board, but this actually made electric resistance very high and lowered connection signal levels, which resulted in weaker noise-resistance.

 

Any MegaNT that can take a real SegaCD peripheral would have to overcome the same engineering problems because the Genesis wasn't designed to have one in the first place. It may be possible to leave an "expansion slot" open, but it would only be able to take a MegaNT "pony" device, to use the term kevtris used near the beginning of the thread for the Z3K.

 

As I mentioned a page or so back, there is no point in repeating the same engineering short-sightedness that the Sega engineers did.