FPGA Based Videogame System

[Beer Monkey]

 

Are you referring to the Framemeister or the Super Nt?

 

If the Framemeister outputs 60.00 Hz, then how does it handle the difference in 60.00 Hz and the SNES 60.09 Hz output?

 

I was only referring to the Super NT. Which always outputs 60.00hz, with internal clock options of 60.00 and 60.09.

 

I'm not sure how the Framemeister handles that. I'm guessing it's something like 59.94hz and drops or blends frames to stay in sync like a Super Gameboy or Game Boy Player does?

 

That's one of the benefits of the OSSC; it matches the refresh rate of what you feed it.

 

EDIT: Apparently the 'Auto' and Manual' modes of the Framemeister change whether it matches the refresh rate of the input or reclocks it with dropped/torn frames. With Manual being the latter.

 

 

2. Fully buffered. This means running to output 60.09 hz. That means that the frames are coming *very* slightly faster than the NT can send them on to the TV. What you get in this situation is that every frame gets delayed slightly. Over several seconds the input lag increases bit by bit until it hits 1 full frame of input lag. At that point you're so far "behind" that you've actually got *two* frames ready to go, so it throws away the oldest frame, and displays the newest one. At this point, you're bag to no input lag, and the process starts again. The dropped frame is 1 frame every several seconds (I believe 10ish) and won't really be noticeable in a lot of circumstances. This is a way to play if you're feeling particularly "purist" and want it running at an accurate speed, as in most cases the added latency is still smaller than you'll encounter with most emulation setups, though if you're doing something particularly frame-precise, you may wish to examine option #3.

 

This 'sawtooth' approach to latency is exactly what the Super Game Boy and Game Boy Player/Interface do.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Beer Monkey

[DarkkOne]

Could Analogue even exist without Kevtris? It still seems weird to me he's an "employee" of theirs rather than a partner. Though I suppose the business arrangements aren't really known to anyone. I just always see him referred to as an employee. Has Kevtris helped with every product Analogue has released? I assume the Analogue Nt was the first but I'm not sure.

Prior to their FPGA consoles, they had some consoles built by salvaging old hardware, and moving the chips to newer boards, and newer enclosures. They'd basically combine original processing with newer output options to create some pretty nice alternatives. That's what the original NT non-Mini was, as well as I believe a Neo Geo console they made. Kevtris' work has certainly helped them move in a new direction (especially in that they're no longer limited to the number of old consoles they can salvage for parts).

[haightc]

My shipping notification came late, I logged in to UPS and noticed it was coming. I was out of town and told them not to deliver but the they delivered it anyways. In fact I think analogue sent me a shipping notice after it had already been dropped off. Fortunately it was okay sitting out there until I got home on Sunday. Shipping to me I think was 18$, to me this sounds about right and a little cheaper than I would expect shipping from Las Vegas to Seattle.

[DarkkOne]

 

This 'sawtooth' approach to latency is exactly what the Super Game Boy and Game Boy Player/Interface do.

Yes, I believe so.

 

It's really the least "accurate" of all three options, in a way. The default option is the most accurate in that you see every frame, and your latency is static. The full speed option is accurate in that it runs at an accurate speed, and interacts with the player with accurate timing. But the "sawtooth" option means you've got a weird variable delay in what you see. Playing it, it's not really noticeable (I mean, there may be 'something' there, but I can't rule out placebo, it's certainly very, very small, though you can notice the skipped frame happen, particularly in the middle of scolling). It's a good option if you just absolutely can't stand tearing, but for speedrunning (which is the only reason really to use it over the default) the introduced variable latency might make frame-perfect tricks even harder to perform.

Edited February 13, 2018 by DarkkOne

[DarkkOne]

My shipping notification came late, I logged in to UPS and noticed it was coming. I was out of town and told them not to deliver but the they delivered it anyways. In fact I think analogue sent me a shipping notice after it had already been dropped off. Fortunately it was okay sitting out there until I got home on Sunday. Shipping to me I think was 18$, to me this sounds about right and a little cheaper than I would expect shipping from Las Vegas to Seattle.

I received my Super NT on Saturday. Analogue *still* hasn't sent me my tracking number, and on their website it still says "Preparing for Shipment." They haven't handled this side of things well at all, though I think largely it's a case of "chose their logistics partner poorly."

[Riptide]

The SNES naturally would generate frames at 60.09hz.

 

So your three options are:

 

1. Run the SNES at a speed that's very slightly slower (literally slowing everything down) so it generates frames at the rate a modern 60hz TV wants them. This is the default mode. You don't have latency since it's never "delaying" any frames, but speedruns would be invalid on leaderboards since it's technically not running at stock speed (though since it's running slightly slower, if you beat a record you're actually doing quite well.) This is literally the option you should ALWAYS use unless you're a speedrunner. There is literally no reason not to.

 

2. Fully buffered. This means running to output 60.09 hz. That means that the frames are coming *very* slightly faster than the NT can send them on to the TV. What you get in this situation is that every frame gets delayed slightly. Over several seconds the input lag increases bit by bit until it hits 1 full frame of input lag. At that point you're so far "behind" that you've actually got *two* frames ready to go, so it throws away the oldest frame, and displays the newest one. At this point, you're bag to no input lag, and the process starts again. The dropped frame is 1 frame every several seconds (I believe 10ish) and won't really be noticeable in a lot of circumstances. This is a way to play if you're feeling particularly "purist" and want it running at an accurate speed, as in most cases the added latency is still smaller than you'll encounter with most emulation setups, though if you're doing something particularly frame-precise, you may wish to examine option #3.

 

3. Effectively "Full speed." This throws the frames out as soon as they're ready. There's, again, no input lag. And it's running to output at 60.09 hz. But since this isn't usable for HDMI on a 60hz screen, every time a new frame is "ready" it immediately stops drawing the old frame, and starts drawing the new frame, meaning that the top half of the frame is "old" and the bottom half "new", giving you tearing. It's the fastest way to play, but always results in visual artifacts by way of tearing. This is probably how you want to play if you're a speedrunner.

Thank you for that. I've heard this explained a few times but the way you put it made the most sense.

[DarkkOne]

Thank you for that. I've heard this explained a few times but the way you put it made the most sense.

 

Just in case it's not clear, I didn't put my three modes in the same order they are on the console. I couldn't remember the names of them, and didn't have the console on-hand to check.

[keepdreamin]

5x height crops way too much. A lot more than standard CRT overscan does.

 

 

Not really, it's only a small handful of pixels top and bottom . I run all my 240P systems at 5X. I have yet to encounter a game that made me switch to say 4X.

 

That's not to say there may be an odd RPG or other game that has a text box or critical item select way down.

[DarkkOne]

 

 

Not really, it's only a small handful of pixels top and bottom . I run all my 240P systems at 5X. I have yet to encounter a game that made me switch to say 4X.

 

That's not to say there may be an odd RPG or other game that has a text box or critical item select way down.

 

I ran into a few NES games where I had to shift the 5x screen up or down. Some games certainly expected different overscan boundaries than others. And then there are some Romhacks out there that expect playback on an emulator and put stuff all the way to the edge of the screen (unfortunately).

 

With the Super NT, the addition of the interpolation means 4.5x is a much better option than it was on the NT Mini.

[mrpopsicleman]

New bug to report.

Front Mission Series - Gun Hazard. Once you name your character and start a new game, the text window at the bottom is screwed up. First it shows no text at all, and then the second time it pops up, the text scrolled up really fast. It does this in both the original Japanese ROM and with the English Translation patch by Aeon Genesis.

[SegaSnatcher]

Firmware 4.1 is up. I didn't see anyone mention this.

https://support.analogue.co/hc/en-us/articles/360000557452-Super-Nt-Firmware-Update-v4-0

[kevtris]

New firmware (4.1) is up on the support page. Fixes:

 

* Controller reading- this fixes street racer's "cannot be used with superscope" message, game genie blowing through the title screen without stopping, and I hope star fox 2's "use original controller" message. I do not had this cartridge, so I hope someone can test this for me that does and verify the fix works for it, too.

 

* Earthworm jim 2 PAL audio - This should be fixed, though due to the extremely tight nature of timing on this game, you can only play it in fully buffered or single buffered. If you play it in zero delay mode the audio will still glitch. This is because the game is extremely timing sensitive, and the time adjustment for zero delay is just enough to cause issues. No other known games are affected.

 

* NBA jam not letting you get back to the menu (on its title screen and some other places) easily - the game had a broken "manual" controller reading loop left in by accident it looks- they clear then set the latch bit on the controller and read it 16 times with latch set! This is never going to work. I don't know why it was in there, but obviously the game cannot use the results, they will just read the Y button 16 times. This was tripping up my "piggybacking" on controller reading. That has been fixed now.

 

enjoy!

[elevengames]

* Controller reading- this fixes street racer's "cannot be used with superscope" message, game genie blowing through the title screen without stopping, and I hope star fox 2's "use original controller" message. I do not had this cartridge, so I hope someone can test this for me that does and verify the fix works for it, too.

I will test this as soon as I get home from work

Edit: Ill be testing using a Stunt Race FX cart that has the SNES Classic ROM of Star Fox 2 flashed on it. It worked on the older firmware as long as I didnt have a controller plugged in upon boot

Edited February 13, 2018 by elevengames

[mrpopsicleman]

* Controller reading- this fixes street racer's "cannot be used with superscope" message, game genie blowing through the title screen without stopping, and I hope star fox 2's "use original controller" message. I do not had this cartridge, so I hope someone can test this for me that does and verify the fix works for it, too.

Don't know if it was specific to any one version of Star Fox 2 or not, but it works with the English patched Star Fox 2 beta that's on my Super FX 10 in 1 multicart by SNES Unlimited (now Retro Circuits).

[cfillak]

Don't know if it was specific to any one version of Star Fox 2 or not, but it works with the English patched Star Fox 2 beta that's on my Super FX 10 in 1 multicart by SNES Unlimited (now Retro Circuits).

Cool, I've had my eye on that cart for awhile so its good to know it works on the Super NT.

[Maarek_Stele]

Cool, I've had my eye on that cart for awhile so its good to know it works on the Super NT.

I've tried the same multi-cart and it does work just fine.

[cacophony]

I have no idea what's causing this issue, but SNES Powerpak appears to be depreciated. It hasn't been available in a long time. I got the Super Everdrive because it was cheaper and it had automatic saving. Still though if it takes somebody loaning their Powerpak to Kevtris to get it fixed, I'm sure somebody will step up.

 

Yep: https://twitter.com/analogue_co/status/963444887147302917

[Fafner]

4.1 already?!

Thank you for all the work Kev!

[Maarek_Stele]

Just tested another MultiCart I have... It has Chatting Parodius Live, Super Mario RPG, Kirby Superstar and Kirby's dreamland 3 on it.. Works great with the Super NT. Was running 4.1 firmware but not sure that matters at all..

[cfillak]

Just tested another MultiCart I have... It has Chatting Parodius Live, Super Mario RPG, Kirby Superstar and Kirby's dreamland 3 on it.. Works great with the Super NT. Was running 4.1 firmware but not sure that matters at all..

So that's an SA-1 multicart? Does RetroCircuits do those?

[iGom]

I'm starting to worry a bit, I should get a package today, it's 19:00 (7:00 pm) in the UK.

Edited February 13, 2018 by iGom

[mrpopsicleman]

 

So that's an SA-1 multicart? Does RetroCircuits do those?

Yes, they do. I've got one from them with just the two SA-1 Kirby games.

[Kismet]

I received the Analogue SuperNT today:

 

Right out of the box I encountered one problem that is likely unique to my setup, but if kevtris has any idea about it:

 

This goes through a signal splitter first, so it's not the only thing that behaves strangely through it (eg the tv box doesn't support 1080p60 (tv box actually puts out 1080p24), but supports 1080i through it)

 

On the capture software it actually looks like it's reporting 1080p, but running at 1080i, or failing hdcp handshake.

 

The color looks fine though (720p)

 

In both cases the colorimetry and color range is not being reported, which is to be expected over HDMI with this card apparently.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Kismet

[Maarek_Stele]

 

 

Yes, they do. I've got one from them with just the two SA-1 Kirby games.

 

Yes, mine was a custom request for those games specifically on the cart. I have a SuperFX one as well, basically all the stuff I can't do on my S2DSNES

[Andromeda Stardust]

5x height crops way too much. A lot more than standard CRT overscan does.

 

5x displaysa total of 216 scanlines. From the 240p image (NES) this is 12 scanlines off the top and 12 off the bottom. Most NES emulators display 224 scanlines due to the fact a lot of games display junk in this area and it was never meant to be seen on CRTs. SNES displays 224 scanlines by default, the top and bottom 8 scanlines are blacked out on original hardware. So 5x mode only crops 4 additional scanlines off the top and bottom of the SNES display, matching the 10% overscan safe area. My 720p Sanyo crops about the same amount offthe picture, 10% of 240p being 24 scanlines or 216p of visible image.

 

Where you run into issues is that many consumer HDTVs have overscan built in by default, even if the screen is 1080p native. So your slightly zoomed in display crops an additional 108 lines of HD resolution, which translates to an additional ~21 lines of native SNES being cropped out by the TV. So you have ~195 lines of veiwable SNES resolution remaining, which exceeds the 10-15% safe area factored in for consumer grade CRT sets. If your set is already cropping thd overscan area and there is no way to disable it, then 5x will crop off even more. I would advise to set vertical scaling to 4x or 4.5x @1080p (or 3x @720p) for such displays.

 

Another reason why I'm a proponent of 1080p pc monitors for gaming. You'll never run into overscan problems or latency issues.