FPGA Based Videogame System

[SegaSnatcher]

Hints are not proof. If I was them and heard the potential to sell to 4x the market was possible I would jump on that and ride it all the way to the bank and I can't think of a single company that wouldn't do the same. But this is getting repetitive so I'm done commenting on it now. We'll see who is right in the next 18 months or so.

Spoiler alert, PS1 ain't happening anytime soon. We will be rocking Genesis and Neo-Geo systems long before a PS1 console is released if ever.

[Atariboy]

SegaSnatcher, let's let Analogue announce what they're doing next, please? We're not privy to those plans, so I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. They haven't announced anything yet and most likely won't for months to come, judging by the Super NT.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Atariboy

[Mattelot]

Hints are not proof.

 

This comment (as true as it is) tends to get people trampled by the tinfoil hat folk. Hints are just bits to keep people hopeful and interested. Those hopeful and interested will follow the news trail which is a common marketing ploy.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

Except it may or may not be a hint. We simply don't know.

So then why the hell even say it? That would be a dumb business move on his part and I don't think Chris Taber is a dumb man. It was an intentional wink to get people excited. I don't even know why people are even questioning the obvious. The only other option they would be doing is the Neo-Geo, but I still think Genesis is up next since he specifically singled it out.

 

Kevtris is simply working out the last remaining bugs in the Super NT. We'll probably see 1 - 2 more firmware updates for the Super NT and then we'll be hearing less of Kevtris.

[Atariboy]

So then why the hell even say it?

 

If you want to read things between the lines, do so. But please just stop acting as if it was confirmed.

 

All I saw was a fun response instead of the old boring "we have nothing to announce at this time" line to a question that the interviewer knew before he ever asked it that he wasn't going to get a real answer for.

 

A Sega Genesis fpga may or may not be next from Analogue and I think we all agree that it's likely only a matter of time before they tackle it, but what hasn't happened is confirmation that Analogue's next project is Sega related. Analogue hasn't announced any of their plans, hasn't said that they wouldn't revisit past products, etc.

 

Right now, they're selling a Super NT. No more, no less.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Atariboy

[SegaSnatcher]

SegaSnatcher, let's let Analogue announce what they're doing next, please? We're not privy to those plans, so I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. They haven't announced anything yet and most likely won't for months to come, judging by the Super NT.

Its just fun speculation. What we can't talk about possible future products from Analogue? Sony hasn't announced the PS5, yet people are speculating over it.

 

 

[SegaSnatcher]

 

If you want to read things between the lines, do so. But please stop acting as if it was confirmed.

Never said he specifically confirmed it, just if people have a working brain it doesn't take a genius to figure out whats next for Analogue.

 

 

[Mattelot]

So then why the hell even say it? That would be a dumb business move on his part and I don't think Chris Taber is a dumb man.

 

It's not a dumb business move. Read my comment above. It's a common marketing ploy that is technically not deceiving nor lying yet not quite confirmation.

 

It falls into the same category as "Everyone's Favorite...." which people see and get all excited for yet, it's something you can't really prove.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

If you want to read things between the lines, do so. But please stop acting as if it was confirmed.

 

All I saw was a fun response instead of the old boring "we have nothing to announce at this time" line to a question that the interviewer knew before he ever asked it that he wasn't going to get a real answer for.

 

A Sega Genesis fpga may or may not be next from Analogue and I think we all agree that it's likely only a matter of time before they tackle it, but what hasn't happened is confirmation that Analogue's next project is Sega related.

What would be the next logical system to work on after the Super NT? Why would they wait to do the Genesis system when even Kevtris said would most likely be less difficult than the Super NT was and has a bigger user base than both the Neo-Geo and TG-16 fanbase combined.

 

[Atariboy]

Who said that I don't think it will be a Sega Genesis? I never said that, all I said is that it's not confirmed. Anyways, I don't work for Analogue, so you're asking the wrong person.

 

Personally, I see the Sega Genesis, TurboGrafx-16, Atari 2600/7800 (And maybe some other crash era systems integrated into it with at least support for SD rom loading, especially those that used the same controller ports), a Neo Geo fpga, or an enhanced and cost reduced NT Mini successor as the likely candidates.

 

Whether or not these are logical, I don't know. I'm not in a position to argue that. But my hunch is that their next console project will fall within this group.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Atariboy

[SegaSnatcher]

I don't work for Analogue, so don't ask me what their plans are.

 

Personally, I see the Sega Genesis, TurboGrafx-16, Atari 2600/7800 (And maybe some other crash era systems integrated into it, especially those that used the same controller ports), a NeoGeo fpga, or a NT Mini successor as the likely candidates.

I'm merely saying lets use some common sense here.

 

Also, I agree with your list. I would buy all those and I already own an AVS for my NES needs, but would get a Cost reduced NT Mini for its 1080p output, custom palettes and hopefully Kevtris's proprietary interpolation he came up with for the Super NT.

[mancomb]

Yeah, other than for nostalgic or sentimental reasons, about the only reason to really hang on to cartridges I think is if you like to speedrun. I feel like if I was going to speedrun a game for an actual WR I would want to show I am using original everything regardless of how accurate an FPGA is. I suppose it might not matter much for a lot of longer games but a game like Super Mario Bros. where the record can come down to single frames I would want real hardware. I mean I know different communities have different rules regarding speedrunning and the equipment or even emulators used but that's how I would do it personally so there could be no question about my times.

I hear you guys regarding the convenience of devices such as the SD2SNES. I know I myself experienced many instances of wanting a game, but it being out of reach; either for financial reasons or unavailability. The idea of keeping old carts around for transparency in speed-running is a valid concern. And I would offer another point of debate in keeping your old carts in favor of rom-dumping: the law of diminishing marginal utility.

Basically the only thing I remember from high school economics class, it basically states that (for example) the first bite of your favorite food will be the most satisfying, and that each bite you take thereafter is less and less satisfying, to the point of not eliciting any satisfaction at all. You could even go so far as to argue that the anticipation of a thing, rather than the obtaining of it, is the more gratifying or enjoyable.

In any case, I think that this law also holds up for us in the gaming world. We as humans tend to hold on to memories of the superlative: Your first game. The first time you and your friends got together for a gaming tournament. The best party night you had. All these kinds of number-one experiences, which were perhaps the most anticipated moments, and also having released the most dopamine in our systems- these are the memories that stay with us over the years. To say it a different way: less is sometimes more, and I think that might be the reason that this Super Nt system, rather than other FPGA systems or even an original SNES, has captured the imagination so firmly: It's main function is to play 30 year old cartridge games. These games harbor lots of nostalgia within the gaming community. These games are also not in production any more, which makes them finite in number. And as people, we tend to equate rarity with quality.

[Atariboy]

I'm merely saying lets use some common sense here.

 

You want us to take that comment that amounts to "well, I'm a Sega fan " and read an awful lot into it. All I'll agree is that it's a promising comment from the head guy at Analogue if one is hoping that they'll consider the Sega Genesis for a future project.

 

What I don't see is confirmation on what will happen after the Super NT. Common sense tells me to hold off with my expectations and let Analogue do the product unveiling.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Atariboy

[SegaSnatcher]

 

You want us to take that comment that amounts to "well, I'm a Sega fan " and read an awful lot into it. All I'll agree is that it's a promising comment from the head guy at Analogue if one is hoping that they'll consider the Sega Genesis for a future project.

 

What I don't see is confirmation on what will happen after the Super NT. Common sense tells me to hold off with my expectations and let Analogue do the product unveiling.

You forgot the "Perhaps we are already working on it" line. That makes all the difference to me.

 

Also, I'm not assuming Kevtris has actually written any code for the Genesis FPGA console yet. Just that this project has been green lit and when Kevtris is done finishing up the last remaining Super NT bugs he'll move on to the next project. I'm sure he can't wait to tackle something brand new. He must be sick of the SNES by now lol.

Edited March 7, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[Mattelot]

You forgot the "Perhaps we are already working on it" line. That makes all the difference to me.

 

As I've said twice now, that's a common marketing ploy and from what you keep saying, it's working it's magic on you as intended.

[mrnarse]

The super slim PS3 was released less than 6 years ago and anyone who wants to play PS1 discs can easily pick one up from GameStop for less than half of what a FPGA PS1 will cost. And PS1 game downloads are on sale all the time on PSN, many of them classics.

 

Even ignoring all of the other features (movies, PS3 games, streaming video), the FPGA version is going to have to have some pretty special features to entice people (other than the type that person that posts on these forums) to spend a few hundred dollars on one. I don’t know if higher-res PS1 era polygons are enough to do that, and they can’t exactly promote iso loading in their official firmwares.

 

Really, the PS3 is perfectly fine for playing PS1 games on a HDTV for 99% of people. It’s not like the 8 and 16-bit systems that need mods and/or upscalers to look good on a HDTV. I think much of the interest in a FPGA version is centered around a jailbreak firmware for iso loading. Sony’s prior devotion to backwards compatibility into the HDMI era might take away a lot of interest from this.

[Mattelot]

The super slim PS3 was released less than 6 years ago and anyone who wants to play PS1 discs can easily pick one up from GameStop for less than half of what a FPGA PS1 will cost. And PS1 game downloads are on sale all the time on PSN, many of them classics.

 

Even ignoring all of the other features (movies, PS3 games, streaming video), the FPGA version is going to have to have some pretty special features to entice people (other than the type that person that posts on these forums) to spend a few hundred dollars on one. I don’t know if higher-res PS1 era polygons are enough to do that, and they can’t exactly promote iso loading in their official firmwares.

 

Really, the PS3 is perfectly fine for playing PS1 games on a HDTV for 99% of people. It’s not like the 8 and 16-bit systems that need mods and/or upscalers to look good on a HDTV. I think much of the interest in a FPGA version is centered around a jailbreak firmware for iso loading. Sony’s prior devotion to backwards compatibility into the HDMI era might take away a lot of interest from this.

 

I was thinking the same thing but didn't feel like saying it... wasn't sure what kind of can I would open. I do think that the PS3 is perfectly fine for 99% of people because that's the only choice most of them have. Unless the FPGA scales/sharpens the images to look pristine, I don't know that I would buy one.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

As I've said twice now, that's a common marketing ploy and from what you keep saying, it's working it's magic on you as intended.

They could have said "We have lots of ideas for what we want to do next" and that would have been a sufficient response, but they specifically singled out Sega. There is no gain for them to bait people like that only to announce and release something completely different. I'm not aware of this common marketing ploy you speak of. Can you give examples?

[Mattelot]

Yes, there is a lot to gain. It gets you excited and on the edge of your seat awaiting this product. It baits someone to continue following up until that product is (if ever) released and any others in the meantime are potential buys for that someone because they will thrive off that advertisement.

 

Depending on how much gaming news you watch, you can see plenty of products that are purely assumptions. A company makes an ever-so-slight hint and people flock to it and hold it as gospel/proof, etc. Heck, E3 is one of the biggest examples. How many products in it's history were labeled "WILL show up..." and never do. Those same people say "they'll probably unveil later" and when they don't, you sometimes never see those people again.

[SegaSnatcher]

Yes, there is a lot to gain. It gets you excited and on the edge of your seat awaiting this product. It baits someone to continue following up until that product is (if ever) released and any others in the meantime are potential buys for that someone because they will thrive off that advertisement.

 

Depending on how much gaming news you watch, you can see plenty of products that are purely assumptions. A company makes an ever-so-slight hint and people flock to it and hold it as gospel/proof, etc. Heck, E3 is one of the biggest examples. How many products in it's history were labeled "WILL show up..." and never do. Those same people say "they'll probably unveil later" and when they don't, you sometimes never see those people again.

Analogue isn't a software gaming publisher/developer, so the same doesn't apply to them. They make very specific products for a more niche consumer base. The demand for a Genesis FPGA console is already there, so they don't have to use cheap marketing ploys to bait people only to release said product years later.

[Mattelot]

Analogue isn't a software gaming publisher/developer, so the same doesn't apply to them. They make very specific products for a more niche consumer base. The demand for a Genesis FPGA console is already there, so they don't have to use cheap marketing ploys to bait people only to release said product years later.

 

It doesn't matter if they make software, hardware or underwear. They offer products and can hint at any possible future products if they know people will hold it as gospel and follow them closely. As far as the demand for a Genesis FPGA, the only way to know is actual metrics. By seeing 12 people on a forum say they would want it doesn't constitute because they're drawn here by common interest. In all fairness, do I believe there is good demand overall for a Genesis FPGA? Yeah, especially after word of the NT mini and Super NT begin to snowball.

[Jakir]

On the subject of ps1 on the ps3 only the original fat model had actual ps2 hardware inside, the slim model supports the ps1 entirely through emulation. Even in the MLiG video on the best way to play ps2 games they didn't provide measurements for the lag this introduced as they didn't possess equipment to measure it accurately and converting it to digital for use via hdmi must introduce some lag and I doubt they put an ossc inside it.

And like all emulation what the ps3 offers isn't perfect and there are a good handful of games that don't work at all on the ps3. Don't get me wrong if you can pick up a ps3 for cheap it is a wonderful way to play the games that do work but I would much prefer a lagless digital way to play and would absolutely buy instantly if it had the option to save game saves to the sd card instead of temperamental sony brand memory cards.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Jakir

[SegaSnatcher]

Also, exhibit B for more evidence. Before Kevtris worked on the Analogue NT Mini he was simply providing Analogue his HDMI kits for their original Analogue NT that used original hardware. During this video Kevtris was asked what was next for him. Sure, this was years ago and he was talking about just HDMI mods, but it shows what he considered priorities at the time.

https://youtu.be/ocpjW9tnb7w?t=2433

Also, I didn't say only 12 people on a single forum are hyped for a potential Mega NT. Go read twitter.

Edited March 7, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[spoonman]

I think you are overlooking the fact that many people love the Neo Geo but don't already have the literal several grand invested into owning one and a few games. Also having lagless digital video is still a feature many Neo Geo owners would be willing to drop $200 on. Not to mention with any luck it would get a jb and give you the chance to experience the Neo Geo library without having to sell your house.

Please read my post again. Not only didn't I overlook that, but I used them as an example in my post.

 

Neo gamers seem to fall into the category of not wanting to risk wear and tear on their rare AES carts, or they are new to the system and don't want to spend the crazy money necessary needed to buy new games.

As well as the ability to play games from the SDcard.

A Japanese AES isn't too hard to find unboxed for under $200 USD, and a cheap HD Retrovision "modless RGB solution" will yield an extremely nice looking YPbPr component output, compatible with consumer grade displays.

 

Cyber-Lip running on an original AES system via HD Retrovision YPbPr component cable @ 240p/60Hz

 

Also, if you want a true "lagless" experience, you'd better stick with a CRT. No matter what your starting point, the modern display is going to add latency. I haven't noticed any additional lag fromn using YPbPr cables on my Samsung displays. Though I mostly use them with my Wega CRT, via the component cables, and they look gorgeous on it. I normally leave a TG16, Gen, NeoGeo, SNES, and Saturn all connected to a 5 port component switcher.

 

My main point was, that I believe a $200 Analogue Neo FPGA-based console, with optional $50-$100 (AES + MVS) cartridge interface adapter (CIA) plus the ability to play games from the SDcard, would make the most sense to both long time NeoGeo owners, as well as those just getting into the platform.

 

I personally think the current ultimate NeoGeo setup, aside from actually owning all 100+ original games, would be to have them on a flashcart. So a system that can just load all of the games from an SDCard would be a hell of a deal, for everyone involved, and just make the most sense.

[Jakir]

Please read my post again. Not only didn't I overlook that, but I used them as an example in my post.

 

A Japanese AES isn't too hard to find unboxed for under $200 USD, and a cheap HD Retrovision "modless RGB solution" will yield an extremely nice looking YPbPr component output, compatible with consumer grade displays.

 

Cyber-Lip running on an original AES system via HD Retrovision YPbPr component cable @ 240p/60Hz

 

Also, if you want a true "lagless" experience, you'd better stick with a CRT. No matter what your starting point, the modern display is going to add latency. I haven't noticed any additional lag fromn using YPbPr cables on my Samsung displays. Though I mostly use them with my Wega CRT, via the component cables, and they look gorgeous on it. I normally leave a TG16, Gen, NeoGeo, SNES, and Saturn all connected to a 5 port component switcher.

 

My main point was, that I believe a $200 Analogue Neo FPGA-based console, with optional $50-$100 (AES + MVS) cartridge interface adapter (CIA) plus the ability to play games from the SDcard, would make the most sense to both long time NeoGeo owners, as well as those just getting into the platform.

 

I personally think the current ultimate NeoGeo setup, aside from actually owning all 100+ original games, would be to have them on a flashcart. So a system that can just load all of the games from an SDCard would be a hell of a deal, for everyone involved, and just make the most sense.

Hard pass on sticking to crts. I have 9/10ths of a frame of lag on my 4k tv. And I'm not going to turn this into a crt vs digital debate.

 

Also even if you manage to get a steal of a deal on your $200 Neo Geo and $75 component cables the flash cart for it alone still costs $500. A $180 fpga hdmi Neo Geo would be nucking futs.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Jakir