FPGA Based Videogame System

[SegaSnatcher]

I already did when you asked earlier.

 

But if I had to take a guess, I'd pick three top candidates for the next major Analogue project. I'd go with both of your choices, and I also think that we'll hear about a NT Mini successor one of these days at a more realistic price point in the wake of the obvious sales success of the Super NT.

 

As you can see, I'm not exactly in disagreement with what you think is personally most likely. But it's only my personal speculation. Analogue and Kevtris haven't confirmed anything and I don't think it would be a shock if their next project is a surprise. So the next person's speculation is going to be just as valid as mine, since none of us actually know what's next.

I want this to happen too, but I think I read that they want to look forward and not back, meaning the NT Mini is their NES FPGA solution. I hope they reconsider making a cheaper Nt Mini. Like you said, with the Super NT's success they might end up doing it. Then again, the AVS exists, so perhaps they don't want to be direct competition.

[SegaSnatcher]

Take your negativity and gtfo. Super NT is loads more feature filled than a stock Super Nintendo. And currently the jb firmware is unnecessary if you own an Everdrive or SD2SNES, but it is a nice feature to have baked in. Super NT is literally the best thing since apple pie.

 

And I plan to get the all black Sega model when it debuts. It will fit right at home next to the avs and classic na purple super nt. I think dual SMS and Genesis / MD slots (like the nt mini with nes / famicom) would be a welcome addition for sega fans in lieu of not supporting cd or 32x peripherals. Especially if adding an expansion slot and analog multi-out raised the price from $200 to $300.

I've been thinking about that. I wonder if they would go the dual slot route, or to keep costs down just keep it Genesis slot only. I mean you could always purchase a PBC for it if you really want to play MS games, or if you have a Mega Everdrive it will load Master System games.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I've been thinking about that. I wonder if they would go the dual slot route, or to keep costs down just keep it Genesis slot only. I mean you could always purchase a PBC for it if you really want to play MS games, or if you have a Mega Everdrive it will load Master System games.

 

You can get a clean look with two slots and minimal added cost. It would be trivial to add fm sound to the core as well. Genesis is by default b/c with sms, so no switching of cores is necessary. I just can't understand the desire for goiterous failed add-ons that would make an otherwise elegant all-in-one 8-bit/16-bit Sega fpga console look so hideous and grotesque, that upon delivery the doctor accidentally discarded the fetus and slapped the afterbirth.

 

In all seriousness, 32x needs an analog multiout port (including analog outs by default = $$$), and the cd add-on requires a breakout pcb and ribbon connector (+$$$ unless the mainboard has the same thickness as the expansion card slot), plus a shell designed around connecting the drive unit (added tooling complexity to the injection mold, + more $$$), and overall a less attractive design than could otherwise be achieved by streamlining the build.

 

I see a form factor similar to the super nt, inspired by the model 1 genesis. Rubber anti-skid pad on bottom, dual sms/genesis slots on top, enscribed within a circular trim, an analogue logo near the front, and "high definition graphics" at the rear of the circle. Power and reset offset to the left side like a real Genesis, two 9-pin controller ports in the front, hdmi and microusb in the back. Color schemes might include classic black, clear frost, and custom blue/white case (traditional sega logo colors).

[AtariNerd]

Yeah, the Super NT makes a pretty good basis for an all-in-one platform system. Just elongate the case to accommodate the extra NES/FC slots and maybe place the GAMEBOY variant card-slots along-side the SD slot. Just use the SNES/SFC controller ports to control all of the included systems. Nice clean design. Do similar for the SEGA systems, as KosmicStardust eluded to. Analogue outs do add to the cost, but including cart ports for all of the systems in a series, sure helps rationalize that cost some. Would people pay $350 -$400USD for one, though? Hard to say. $300 or so, for an HDMI-only version, probably not too far of a bet.

 

(Heh, only 100 pages off from catching up to the 'Chameleon' thread. )

Edited March 8, 2018 by Standard User

[mrnarse]

An FPGA Genesis without Sega CD or 32X support is attractive enough on its own for me. My only experience with the Genesis has been through the subpar video quality of The Genesis’ RF and composite video outputs. Playing the system with pristine video quality will be like playing the Sega Genesis library for the first time for me. I had a Sega CD in my youth, but getting a Sega CD or 32X now is not a top priority for me.

 

The alternatives: spend around $200 to get a OSSC and RGB cables, or hope my TV supports proper 240p with retro vision cables (mine doesn’t). Not a bad alternative, as the Genesis doesn’t need any modifications for RGB. But If I went the upscaler route I’ve still gotta get everything set up properly and working together, and hope I can grab one when it’s in stock. I already have a working Genesis and power supply, so I don’t have to add that to the expenses.

 

Or I could spend the same amount and just get an Analogue Genesis that hooks up via HDMI. By all means add a Sega CD add-on slot for a real Sega CD unit if it doesn’t add significantly to the cost of the system. It was more popular than the 32X, had a better library, and doesn’t have to deal with the nightmare of a second video output. But I don’t think I’d be interested in that feature myself, unless there was a jailbreak that allowed iso loading, or someone develops a Sega CD ODE.

 

Right now I’m just as interested in all of the upcoming wireless Genesis controller options we have coming. Sega’s got a whole line of officially licensed wireless Genesis, Saturn, and Dreamcast pads coming via Retro-bit. Krikzz is nearing completion of his wireless Genesis pad. And if Analogue does announce a FPGA Genesis, you gotta think 8bitdo will be working on their own wireless controllers to match the system. Hopefully at least one of those solutions turns out well.

[SegaSnatcher]

You can get a clean look with two slots and minimal added cost. It would be trivial to add fm sound to the core as well. Genesis is by default b/c with sms, so no switching of cores is necessary. I just can't understand the desire for goiterous failed add-ons that would make an otherwise elegant all-in-one 8-bit/16-bit Sega fpga console look so hideous and grotesque, that upon delivery the doctor accidentally discarded the fetus and slapped the afterbirth.

 

In all seriousness, 32x needs an analog multiout port (including analog outs by default = $$$), and the cd add-on requires a breakout pcb and ribbon connector (+$$$ unless the mainboard has the same thickness as the expansion card slot), plus a shell designed around connecting the drive unit (added tooling complexity to the injection mold, + more $$$), and overall a less attractive design than could otherwise be achieved by streamlining the build.

 

I see a form factor similar to the super nt, inspired by the model 1 genesis. Rubber anti-skid pad on bottom, dual sms/genesis slots on top, enscribed within a circular trim, an analogue logo near the front, and "high definition graphics" at the rear of the circle. Power and reset offset to the left side like a real Genesis, two 9-pin controller ports in the front, hdmi and microusb in the back. Color schemes might include classic black, clear frost, and custom blue/white case (traditional sega logo colors).

And ridges, it has to have ridges.

[Mattelot]

And ridges, it has to have ridges.

 

[Kismet]

Wonder if there is anything proprietary about the Super NT? Isn't it a rather generic setup with generic FPGA connected directly to all the other generic parts? I mean there aren't any custom chips exclusive to the console. Are there? So theoretically one could write new firmware from scratch. Shouldn't be more difficult than programming a developer board.

 

It's proprietary. Period. It may not be under draconian DRM, but it's currently undocumented in a way that would prevent anyone from just straight up writing their own firmware/fpga firmware. If someone wanted to RE it, they would have to unsolder all the chips and trace the PCB to figure out what is wired up to what. Past that point I'd assume that writing another FPGA core would be trivial IF the HDMI linedoubler was not part of the FPGA logic. So any core written has to have a HDMI line doubler put in it, where as stuff like MiSTer does not AFAIK, and the output of MiSTer is dependant upon what is on the DE10-nano.

 

 

 

Diminishing interest? I will buy and be happy about PC Engine, Mega Drive and NeoGeo like I was about the Super Nt. Light users may be interested in the SNES most, but real retro gamers appreciate all systems. Are light users really the target audience of Analogue? Those people are happy with SNES Mini, Pi, etc.

 

People who think the Pi/RetroArch is "good enough" will not spend money on anything, and don't care about latency or color accuracy. Essentially what these people want is an nVidia shield (which is the same chipset as the Nintendo Switch) without the obnoxiously slow Android software parts for the price of a Pi. It does not exist, and never will exist. The Pi/Arduino are super-weak things that were meant for robotics/IoT. The Banana Pi BPI-M2 Magic is an essentially identical part to the NES/SNES Mini Classic except it doesn't have HDMI on it.

 

(I once had an argument with someone on another forum somewhere who was absolutely convinced that you could run Windows XP on Pi, because you could run MineCraft on both, and I could just not got get the message through to this guy that the Pi's don't even speak the same language, let alone have the performance. This was before Microsoft came out with it's brain-dead Windows Surface ARM parts.)

 

This is basically why people who say a Pi is a solution for (software) emulation, don't have any clue what they're talking about. The Pi's specs are all over the map, just like Linux distros. These are not ready-to-run solutions, at best, they're a DIY kit that requires the same kind of skills as Science Fair's electronic project kits that anyone over the age of 12 can figure out. At worst, they're IoT snake oil.

 

It doesn't necessarily need a copyrighted bios. Again, the Bleem example brought up earlier. Sony lost despite trying to pay their way to victory, and ended up buying them if I remember the basics entirely.

 

Let's let Analogue tell us what's next, what they will and will not do, etc. The only way we'll get answers is by being patient and seeing what happens next.

 

Bleem had to copy specific parts of the BIOS to get PSX games to boot, because the PSX games were looking for "LICENSED BY SONY" or something on the boot screen or something. I don't remember the exact specifics, but basically it was a sneaky way to abuse copyright to prevent competition.

 

Analogue will likely not produce a PSX or a SegaCD unit precisely because "accuracy" requires the bios. The only legal BIOS's you can acquire presently are for the 80x86 platform. The BIOS for the C64, Amiga, AtariST, Apple II, Mac, PSX, GameCube, PS2/PS3/PS4/etc, Xbox/Xbox360/XboxOne, GB/GBC/GBA/DS/DSi/3DS, have no "legal" means of being acquired for distribution. The C64, and some versions of the PC/Tandy that have ROM BASIC, you can not distribute the ROM BASIC either.

 

But more to the point, the ROM BIOS/BASIC for the 8-bit machines are often not insurmountable feats to reverse engineer, as the 6502 BASIC all originated from the same source code, and that source code is available to look at. So if Analogue wanted to make their own 6502 BASIC to release a similar device to the SuperNT that does the NES/AppleII/C64 "legally" that would be something not entirely unreasonable. It would be interesting to have something able to play the "Family Basic" from the Famicom as well as the Apple II and C64 BASIC software, but I think the number of people who would actually do so is few. Hell, that could be put IN the Super NT with some way of attaching a keyboard via the SNES controller port and having it be recognized somehow.

 

Anyway, not to derail, but the quickest way to put something "legal" on a FPGA computer would in fact be to re-implement the ROM BASIC for the 6502/Z80 devices, and just look the other way if people use software they acquired online, legitimately or not. When it comes to the 16-bit machines, there is nothing standard between any of the machines. The Amiga, Mac, and Sega Genesis only have a CPU in common, nothing else. The Apple IIgs and SNES are the only popular systems that use the 65c816, and have little else in common.

 

Which goes back to the point about persueing legal avenues so the Analogue device is not just one more piracy tool. Ship it with something that works, if the kiddies want to replace the pack-in software with whatever they found online, that is none of your concern, because they would do it anyway.

[Mattelot]

There was no copy protection on Sega CD. That's why I would like to be hopeful.

[5200Fanatic]

If the Sega CD and 32X weren't selling enough back then, why would any company want to recreate those systems now? There isn't the economies of scale to make it a worthwhile endeavor IMHO.

[Mattelot]

If the Sega CD and 32X weren't selling enough back then, why would any company want to recreate those systems now? There isn't the economies of scale to make it a worthwhile endeavor IMHO.

 

Sega CD didn't sell well because it was too expensive at the time. It was an add-on that was 1.57x the price of the console it was attached to. I knew lots of gamers growing up and I was the only one who had one. I had one friend who always asked if I wanted to sell mine. The 32X just sucked at launch and Sega fans saw the Saturn on the horizon.

[Reaperman]

Pardon if this has been answered, but who owns the SNES core? Is it Analogue, or Kevtris?

 

I'm just curious, as IIRC there was some flap about the c64dtv ownership. Because it fell with the maker of the plug-and-play hardware, its future use was severely limited, as was the ability of that team to make another one. (that was at least a decade ago, and I haven't checked lately) My guess is that Kevtris will be playing with FPGA's long after Analogue calls it quits, or moves on to some other area of gaming, and I'd really like to see that SNES core again on my 92k SSUHD Holo-Floatpanel.

 

I'm also not sure why everybody's so keen on genesis. It's an inexpensive and extremely common system that has simply beautiful stock scart output. I like the core store's focus on weird systems that are hard to play otherwise. If I had a wish, it'd be for gx4000, or cougar boy. What's better, some walmart system with tons and tons of awesome games, or the glory that is Cougar Boy? (rawr)

 

Don't mind me too much, I'm going slightly nuts waiting for my S-NT.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Reaperman

[cacophony]

Pardon if this has been answered, but who owns the SNES core? Is it Analogue, or Kevtris?

This question has been asked multiple times and the only answer given was essentially "no comment"

[Sho]

This question has been asked multiple times and the only answer given was essentially "no comment"

 

Not sure if this is the case, but only because of a recent comment Kev made last Sunday.

 

He mentioned that he licences his cores out for both game and non-game related stuff in the Analogue discord.

[cacophony]

 

Not sure if this is the case, but only because of a recent comment Kev made last Sunday.

 

He mentioned that he licences his cores out for both game and non-game related stuff in the Analogue discord.

Interesting! Ill have to search the discord chat to try to find it.

[zeroG]

If the Sega CD and 32X weren't selling enough back then, why would any company want to recreate those systems now? There isn't the economies of scale to make it a worthwhile endeavor IMHO.

 

I don't really need it. If they are able do it I would pay $200 more - no problem - but if they can't I can live without Sega CD and/or 32x. A lot of the CD games got PSX/Saturn ports.

 

There are less than 10 games I would like to play on both addons combined. On the base system there are easily 75+ games.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

I don't really need it. If they are able do it I would pay $200 more - no problem - but if they can't I can live without Sega CD and/or 32x. A lot of the CD games got PSX/Saturn ports.

 

There are less than 10 games I would like to play on both addons combined. On the base system there are easily 75+ games.

The only thing I see stopping them from adding an expansion port to the Mega NT is the form factor. Even if they designed it for the Sega CD Model 2 the system itself would be noticeably bigger than the Super NT.

 

I personally wouldn't care if the system was around the size of a Model 2 Genesis, but Analogue might feel differently.

[Keatah]

Nah the switches are easy to implement. One technical hurdle for 2600 is variable scanline count. You cannot have a "zero delay" mode on a 2600 fpga when the scanlines aren't guaranteed to be fixed at 262 (ntsc) or 312 (pal). You can set hardware to ntsc or pal colors, but full buffered is the only way to play games. This isn't really an issue anymore with the super nt supporting it, but it may prevent running on an otherwise much cheaper fpga.

 

I'm sure the switches are easy to do. But their cost is more. Seems that most modern developers like to assign 10 different functions to one button, rather than have a small array of switches. A small part of the VCS experience is playing with the switches.

 

Not exactly clear on how Software Emulator Stella does frame buffering and NTSC vs PAL. Not sure I want to discuss that too deeply either. But profile a game, and "buffer" the top and bottom by adding in extra lines so that the total of TOP BUFFER + GAME SCREEN + BOTTOM BUFFER = a fixed number of lines that the console always outputs.

 

There's likely 5 different ways to handle it all.

[NE146]

On the 2600 core on the NT-Mini the switches (b&w, select, a/b) are just assigned to the various 8bitdo controller buttons. That what you're talking about?

[SegaSnatcher]

On the 2600 core on the NT-Mini the switches (b&w, select, a/b) are just assigned to the various 8bitdo controller buttons. That what you're talking about?

Yep, that is exactly how I assumed it would work, no point in making them physical.

[SegaSnatcher]

Nah the switches are easy to implement. One technical hurdle for 2600 is variable scanline count. You cannot have a "zero delay" mode on a 2600 fpga when the scanlines aren't guaranteed to be fixed at 262 (ntsc) or 312 (pal). You can set hardware to ntsc or pal colors, but full buffered is the only way to play games. This isn't really an issue anymore with the super nt supporting it, but it may prevent running on an otherwise much cheaper fpga.

So wait, are you saying the 2600 core in the NT Mini has input lag?

[Keatah]

That could work. 1 button per switch. But with VCS I would prefer slide switches.

[RabidWookie]

I think Sega CD support should be included via expansion slot, but I still don't understand why so many people really want 32x support to the point where it would be a deal breaker for them if it wasn't included. There are literally what like 5 good games on the 32x worth playing.

More like 15-20. If I have to keep my old hardware and a CRT to play some of my Genesis collection anyway I'd rather not spend hundreds on a half measure. Eventually someone will do it right.

[RabidWookie]

 

What's with the excitement for Analogue to repeat the mistakes of Sega? The Sega CD and 32x being expansions made it the laughing stock of the video game world. No console since has repeated that mistake for good reason. Personally a lot of the appeal of an FPGA Genesis, 32x, and Sega CD is not ever having to deal with those expansions again.

 

My current Genesis is a mess. Sega Genesis 1, Sega CD 2, Sega 32X, video cable, headphone audio cable, 32X crossover cable, 3 wall wart ac adapters, model 1 extender, mounting bracket,, and just to add to the spectacle a set cartridge clips. The poor thing looks like a crash victim in the ER.

The Sega CD and 32X being horrible business decisions doesn't negate the fact that they had some great games that many hardcore fans (Analogue's target market) want to be able to play on modern TVs if they're going to shell out hundreds of dollars on an FPGA Genesis. It's not rocket science, yet this question keeps coming up. Edited March 8, 2018 by RabidWookie

[SegaSnatcher]

More like 15-20. If I have to keep my old hardware and a CRT to play some of my Genesis collection anyway I'd rather not spend hundreds on a half measure. Eventually someone will do it right.

Name me your top 10.