ledzep Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Yes, good for me and good for the industry too. What industry? The topic at hand is people getting into retro games skipping the Atari. Assuming that means actually owning/collecting/playing vintage gear that means there is no "industry". You can't even include Atari/Activision collections for newer systems since that isn't really even collecting the retro systems, just playing the emulated games. There's no noticeable profit to be made dealing with used consoles or controllers or games, neither through selling small runs of homebrew games. An individual can make a few bucks but that's no "industry". You mean archaic controllers where the control schemes are awkward as hell to use on damn near almost anything (the Intellivision disc pad and the colecovision), where the joysticks are cheap and prone to breaking, (the atari 2600) or are unmitigated disasters with non-centering joysticks and fire buttons that wear out (Atari 5200). This isn't an argument. This is just whining. If you can't adapt to different control schemes, that's your problem. Some people want more variety than a d-pad for every game. To say that there is an "appeal" for the older systems because they are "unique" doesn't really seem like a selling point. Novelty? Sure. A game room discussion peice. Absolutely. But to say that the "unique controllers" are in anyway "more accurate" is patently absurd. Considering that a good number of older retro gamers do in fact either mod their older systems to accept NES or Master System controllers or will simply plug in a Sega Genesis Model 1 controller where applicable. Yes, some of the unique controllers are more accurate. Specifically the analog ones (paddles, trak-balls, spinners, analog sticks) with a variable speed element to the change in direction. Of course there are many games that don't require that and so digital joysticks and d-pads will work more or less fine. But if you need a variable speed for a paddle like in Warlords or Breakout, having only left/right buttons or a joystick is unacceptable, there's no option for a quicker direction change or a faster move to the left or right edge, it's just a constant slide left or right. Same for games that require spinners and true trak-balls. For an older guy you seem to speaking for a lot people in the retrogaming community when it appears you are simply speaking for your self. For a younger guy you seem to be speaking for a lot of people in the retrogaming community when it appears you are simply speaking for yourself. Based on the responses I've seen already I'm not alone in my views about one of the key differences with older Atari type consoles (and arcade games) when compared to the newer NES/SNES style games. Which, again, is what this topic seems to be about. You seem to be arguing that everyone likes the same things and for the same reasons. If that were true then this entire thread would be pointless since either all or no people into retro games would skip Atari, yes? Yet some/many do. Why? It must be a different mindset or preference of some type, correct? Ok, that's what I'm talking about. That is extremely debatable. Not at all. Analog controllers cannot be reproduced well with digital controls. Here's an experiment for you to try sometime. See if you can find a RC airplane or car that uses only digital controls. No analog sticks or steering wheels or throttles, just buttons for left, right, up and down (for the plane). You won't. But, ok, trying building such a useless controller for a RC airplane or car. And then see if you can get even a 10th of the control and accuracy you'd get from the original unique control scheme the airplane or car was meant for. That is the exact same difference with playing, say, Tempest with the original spinner type control vs. attempting the same with a digital joystick or d-pad. Yes, you can manage to play Tempest that way but it will be a miserable experience in comparison to how it is supposed to play. Same goes for Missile Command trak-ball vs. d-pad. Considering that Breakout had some damn near great updates and ports to the NES and Famicom Disk System and all but one port of the game made use of the NES/Famicom controller. (I believe Arkanoid was specifically programmed for the Famicom trackball) And the fact that Missile Command, Asteroids, Centipede, etc all had great ports to the Gameboy lends me to believe that either you haven't played them or never gave the d-pad a real chance. If the Famicom controller is also a little cross of directional buttons like the NES d-pad then it's garbage for a game like Breakout. Use. Less. Now, the Famicom trackball, that's entirely different. If it functions like a true trak-ball (not the joystick mode that the 2600 apparently uses) then kudos, that's a great addition and no self-respecting Famicom owner should be without one if he was playing the paddle/trak-ball games of old like Arkanoid or Centipede. But, why offer something like a trak-ball if the d-pad is so fantastic? Could it be that even Nintendo realized that not all games were at their best with 4 directional buttons? The Gameboy has the same controller so the same uselessness for games like Breakout. Yes, it is possible to play those games with a d-pad. It's also possible to eat soup with a fork but why try when there are spoons available? This isn't an agument. This is just whining. No shit. Considering the game originally came out in 1989 for a PC that had a GUI and mouse peripheral and never got a console port. Again, what in thee fuck are you talking about. It most definitely was ported to a console. With the correct controller. Here's the thing. You can play Ultima on the NES with a d-pad. You can play detective games and early forms of visual novels and first person exploration games on the Famicom with a d-pad. You can play Sim city on SNES with a d-pad (a damn good game I might add). To say you can't imagine is kind of silly considering it's been done to death. Here's the thing. That has nothing to do with the games I was talking about which I couldn't imagine playing using a d-pad. Cherry-picking, tsk tsk. Sure, there are many games that wouldn't suffer from using a d-pad (digital joystick games, button games). I was talking about games that would suffer from such a worthless controller, games like Breakout and Missile Command and Star Raiders and Centipede and many others. Mostly because I've played them the way they were meant to be played, I can't use an inadequate controller after the fact. If I only knew modern consoles and nothing but digital gamepad controllers then I wouldn't know what I was missing, obviously. Oh look somebody making claims without giving evidence. Meanwhile in reality, you can play supposedly "superior" trakball games on a d-pad just fine. Hahaaha, that is pathetic, the blaster is moving at a constant speed! And a slow speed at that. That is not "just fine", that is shit. Sure, it looks like Tempest, the graphics are pretty good, but the gameplay is ruined. Thank you for providing evidence that supports my position. Have you ever actually played a Tempest arcade game? A real one? I am guessing not because you would instantly find that constant speed of movement in the Gameboy version unacceptable. You would also know that Tempest uses a spinner, not a trak-ball. A trak-ball is close (the recently released 5200 version uses the trak-ball as well) but nothing matches a spinner. Maybe sometime get a MAME version of Tempest going, with a spinner, get used to it, get really good at it, then try it again with a digital joystick or some directional buttons, see what an abomination it becomes. I know old school gamers (including myself) who don't even like playing the Tempest conversion Major Havoc because the conversion many times uses the Tempest spinner instead of the horizontal roller of the dedicated cabinet. It's close, better than nothing, but at the same time it's wrong. No way would any of us consider a d-pad version, haahaaha, that's just dumb. I'm sorry but does Yar's Revenge magically change into a different game the moment you plug a Sega Genesis Model 1 controller in the standard Atari VCS controller port? No, I didn't think so. For someone who complains about cherry-picking I'm surprised you picked Yar's Revenge since that's a joystick game. The 2600 digital joystick is the closest thing you can get to a d-pad control scheme so your example would obviously support your view that switching to a d-pad wouldn't matter. But you probably knew that? Maybe not. Marble Madness, on the other hand, would in fact magically change into a different game if you subjected it to the horror of d-pad control. Because games magically change into another game once you play with a d-pad. Well, perhaps they do change.....into something better and playable. Many games do, yes. All trak-ball games, all paddle games, all spinner games, if controller speed is part of the feel. Analog joystick games suffer less but still aren't the same. Compare between the flight control feel of Atari 400/800 Star Raiders (with the stock 2600 joystick) and the Atari 5200 Star Raiders (with the analog stick). Very very different. I prefer the 5200 version, feels closer to actual flight direction (like the Star Wars arcade game) but since it first came out on the Atari computers it can be argued that the 5200 version is wrong. I agree, but I still like the analog stick version. But even that switch matters. No way is the d-pad better for those games. Only someone unfamiliar with those analog games would think something that off-base. Must be why the arcade scene ended up dying out only to be revitalized by fighting and racing games in the 90's, only to die out yet again. That's your guess? The arcade scene died due to many factors, too many to go into here. Not necessarily. The SNES could get around this very easily by simply mapping the thrust and deceleration configuration to either two of the 4 face buttons or the 2 shoulder buttons. In fact, how do you think Pilotwings, one of the best games on the system, handles? (In fact The 16-bit gen would see a lot of previously unported pc flight sim games.) The NES simply wasn't designed for the multi-button arcade ports. However, that has absolutely zero bearing on whether or not you can play a flight sim game or a game like Star trek: SOS on a d-pad. To which, the answer is unequivocally: yes. It has zero bearing to people like you who don't care about the differences, clearly. But to others, like myself, it means a great deal. I know the NES simply wasn't designed for multi-button arcade ports. Neither was it designed for the different unique controller schemes of many arcade games. Which makes it a waste of time for someone like myself. Obviously many many people love the NES/SNES, it's popularity isn't in question. Yet again, I'm talking about why someone who is younger and into retro games, as discussed in this thread, would not be interested in older Atari consoles. Can you play Star Trek: SOS or a flight sim with only a d-pad? Yes, of course, if someone programmed such a version. Would it be anywhere near as good as a version with the correct controls? The answer is unequivocally: no. Except games like Super Mario Bros were not only praised for it's graphical innovations but were praised because of the fact that the controls were tight and the level design great. In fact, Super Mario Brothers 3 became the de-facto standard by which all games are measured vis a vis tight mechanics. Super Mario Bros 3 is the sumum bonum of how a game can be controlled with such fluidity and ease. When did I say Super Mario Bros 3 had good graphics and shitty gameplay? Ah, right, I didn't. More cherry-picking, for shame. Super Mario Bros 3 is a platform game designed specifically for the NES! How does that relate to arcade style games on the 2600? All I was getting at was that the 2600 had such poor graphics that nobody was going to be fooled into buying a 2600 game because it had great graphics and then find out later that the gameplay sucked. The gameplay might suck but the graphics weren't going to be a factor. More fucking whining about graphics. As if games like Castlevania, Megaman, Kirby's adventure, the Legend of Zelda series, Contra, Bionic Commando, the Mario Brothers series, Nazo No Murasame Joh, Kid Icarus, Sonic 2, Adventure Island, Summer Carnival '92 Recca, Smash Tv, the Kunio-kun series, Eggerland, double dragon, Little Nemo, Bomberman, TNMT: the Arcade, Excitebike, Ballon Fight, SCAT, Gradius, Duck Tales, Ninja Gaiden, Shatterhand, Metroid, Rad Racer, Faxanadu, Bubble Bobble, Blaster master, Punch-out, Final Fantasy, Splatterhouse: Wanpaku Graffiti, and Holy Diver don't exist. You aren't paying attention. I wasn't talking about graphics, I was talking about how a crappy 2600 game wouldn't be able to hide behind really good graphics. Do you understand? All the games you just listed, how many of them would look even close to decent on the 2600? I'm going to guess none. Passable, possibly. Recognizable, even. But since the 2600 had such poor graphics the only thing that programmers could really concentrate on was gameplay. And sometimes they screwed that up, too. But for younger gamers who grew up with the NES/SNES or better, tolerating blocky 2600 graphics might be asking too much which would be why, yet again, it could be a consideration for why many of those people getting into retro games would skip the Atari. Your complaints would be better served if directed against modern AAA games on 9th gen modern hardware. That's something I generally agree upon. But these complaints about the era in question or the Nintendo consoles in general are either severely unwarranted, reek of severe desperation, or are opinions that have no basis in fact. They're not complaints, they're observations. Ok, I do complain about the d-pad because it's crap (and I'm far from alone on that score) and I'm no fan of platform games. But I only bring those things up in an attempt to explain how it's possible that a lot of people getting into retro games (you know, the subject of this thread) skip Atari. As someone who prefers Atari, even the lowly 2600, I think I have at least a partial view into the reasoning. What's that? You posted images of non-standard arcade cabinets or cabinets that had special mechanisms for controls? Talk about cherry-picking. Ya, including a picture of a Defender control panel like the game you have in your last image. Sad that you didn't pick up on that. So, why are you posting images of "non-standard" arcade cabinets? And the image above that one included Rapid Fire, which uses light guns, haahaha. So is that a "standard" arcade cabinet? Where do you get this idea that there's a "standard" arcade cabinet? Back in the day, back in the Atari 2600 day (late '70s), many arcade cabinets had special mechanisms for controls. You didn't know that?! Do you think all arcade cabinets had a joystick and 2-4 buttons? Dude, wake up. There were horizontal screens, vertical screens, vector monitors, trak-balls, buttons only, paddles, steering wheels, analog joysticks, spinners, cockpit cabinets, cocktail cabinets, all kinds of shit. Your one repetitive design layout utopia didn't show up for years. You could. But the problem is that Atari 2600 joysticks are not only pretty damn cheap, they aren't built for that force in mind. Hence why Nintendo actually put out a joystick controller with that in mind. This isn't an argument. This is just whining. I owned a 2600 for years (got one as a kid when they were new). The joysticks aren't arcade quality but they held up for years and years of constant play from me and my brother and our friends. So "pretty damn cheap" is an exaggeration. They are most definitely built to be used on a flat surface like an arcade cabinet set-up, too. Many times we held the joysticks in our hands because there was no table handy to set them on. Worked fine either way. And yet these same older types are looking for ways to mod thier 7800 and 5200 to accept the NES or Master system controllers. Looking for ways to make the colecovision run through a standard d-pad or are simply plugging in a Sega Genesis model 1 controller into an Atari 2600. Some of them are, sure. And others aren't. So what. Have you seen the extra controllers that Fury Unlimited made for the Vectrex? I'll give you a hint, none of them were any miserable d-pads. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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