Keatah Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I believe you refer to it as it applies to the CPUs/DRAM, while he's referring to it as it applies to SSDs. I haven't checked that wrt SSD the slowdown you mention already cropped up. So in the end you may both be right. Well I was definitely thinking CPU. I can certainly see the vertical construction in newer Flash being an advantage. The elements are bigger and the industry has taken a step back to something like 10-21nm this past year to make vertical construction a reality. So you have bigger elements, but now you gain loads of vertical space.. And reliability goes up. In fact the industry is having reliability issues with anything less than 10nm. The trapped charge is simply too small. Moore's law was coined when everything was sprawling all over in 2D. 3D cheats and gets around it. Anyhow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted February 28, 2016 Author Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Well I was definitely thinking CPU. I can certainly see the vertical construction in newer Flash being an advantage. The elements are bigger and the industry has taken a step back to something like 10-21nm this past year to make vertical construction a reality. So you have bigger elements, but now you gain loads of vertical space.. And reliability goes up. In fact the industry is having reliability issues with anything less than 10nm. The trapped charge is simply too small. Moore's law was coined when everything was sprawling all over in 2D. 3D cheats and gets around it. Anyhow Somehow I am not surprised. 10nm = 100 Angstroms. Atomic distances are measured in Angstroms, so at 10nm we are getting to a dozen or two atoms, pretty impressive and at the same time kind of the end of the road for current technology. Edited February 28, 2016 by phoenixdownita 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupanIII Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Yeah, we'll be having loads of fun if the ReRAM and Memristor memory get going. You'll have like 32GB of onboard MEMORY.... storage and ram. or 128GB... and then add your dedicated drives. the onboard storage will be the speed of the memory and the RAM allocation will be the size reasonable to allocate unused storage. That's gonna be a fun transition. Probably that will be the most powerful addition to the 4K game systems in a couple of years. 5x todays processing power but a real breakthrough in memory speed and a change in how onboard memory is used. several gigabytes of texture space, no texture copy operations needed, and then no transfer across busses will speed things up and the giant ram cache of unified main memory will just be insane. Kind of like a modern Amiga/AtariST that many of us would envision if Wintel hadn't happened. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 As far as moore's law? Fuck that.. trying to keep it alive is like a corporate boardroom pet-project. Let it die already! Moore's law is unsustainable because eventually the circuits will be the size of atoms and you can't go smaller than that. At some point, Silicon tech will be replaced by Diamond semiconductor junctions, with carbon nanotubes serving as electrical conduit. Wanna go smaller? Sorry it's physically impossible. 5Ghz still seems the practical limit for CPU speed. Throughout the 90s, speed was increasing at an exponential rate, then progress slowed to a crawl after we passed 2Ghz in the early 2000s. 15 years later CPUs barely clock twice as fast. Smaller dies, bigger heatsinks. 64-bit CPU with more cores and larger caches, etc. Next we will hit a limit for fabrication. You start getting down to a few nanometers and leakage currect becomes a reality. The masks used for CPU lithography get finer than the wavelength of the UV light you use to cure them and it creates problems. Storage space is the same. HDD or SSD, you can only fit so many bits or logic gates on a finite area. That and the focus is now on efficiency and miniaturization, rather than raw power. The PC industry suffers, first because mobile devices supplanting general purpose machines, and second because with five year old hardware perfectly capable of running the latest software, why bother to update? I guess the sheeple consumers have spoken, and prefer their walled in gardens to the vastness of the open sourced countryside. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopDrop&Retro Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Holy shit. I really fell down the Bob's Game well for about an hour looking up stuff about it. The closest thing to his handheld is the Arduboy. Far less powerful but much closer to his price point. I guess unless you get a contract phone and just use it for games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupanIII Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Okay, this'll liven things up (always worry when you see the word "this'll")... Drinking game. Take a shot of your favorite whenever you find a PCB you mistakenly think could be what Mike K. put in the clearcase... I know some of you are gonna be stone cold drunk, lol. as always, no my fault if you follow through with this. I spent a whole whopping 40 mins giving a damned yesterday and moved on, but, I get the feeling some of you aren't giving up yet, hahahaa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u3szvsUJHzU/UkUiTS3nl5I/AAAAAAAACRE/CdYrRiLmXiA/s1600/HotRod+DS-final.jpg Breaking news! The coleco chameleon is white now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I've got some old video cards and sound cards that look somewhat like that board. The USB controller ports are the big difference, of course, but that can always be remedied with some loose USB connectors and a little bit of hot glue ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja_gaiden2015 Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Assuming that Mike had a "tech guy" is giving him the benefit of the doubt with this project. Mike may have simply been focused on licence acquisition of IP's (celeco), the gamepads, software creators, and potential retail sales operators. It was only a short time since last indigogo and many bridges were burned during that process. I doubt John Carlsen would have come back on board after he was thrown under a bus. Although there might be many people who could design the pcb of the prototype, the list of people who could create a SNES core for a FPGA is much smaller. The list of people who could complete any substantial amount of work on a SNES FPGA in such a short timeframe, let alone without being paid each week, is smaller still. Mike may have simply passed off the snes-mini-in-a-jag as a way to get around the prototype requirements of kickstarter and get funding to launch his proof-of-concept console design. The plan might have simply been to wait until funding was acquired through kickstarter before paying someone, or promising someone a percentage of profits to build his vision. If collectorvision or piko weren't told the truth by Mike, you can hardly blame them about being kept in the dark. Both Piko and Collectorvision were providing licence to use their existing roms of games for SNES etc and may have not been told accurate information about the completion of the tech for the project. In any event, Piko and Collectorvision have been pretty professional about the whole thing since it collapsed, by not saying anything about this further failed attempt to get it the RVGS/CC off the ground. As much as I don't like what he did with the snes-mini at toyfair, it makes sense that he would take that approach when you realise that he has unlikely made any money from this RVGS/CC project that has gone on over these months (or maybe years). There would come a time when the money would eventually dry up from any other income streams, previous investors, or personal savings towards the project. .... I guess all of this is just speculation at this stage. I would love for him to prove that it was less shambolic and more honest than it appears to be, but it is more likely that we won't ever know the answer to what went on and the RVGS/CC will drift off into obscurity, as just a bunch of ideas, like that Bob's Game fellow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Moore's law is unsustainable because eventually the circuits will be the size of atoms and you can't go smaller than that. At some point, Silicon tech will be replaced by Diamond semiconductor junctions, with carbon nanotubes serving as electrical conduit. Wanna go smaller? Sorry it's physically impossible. 5Ghz still seems the practical limit for CPU speed. Throughout the 90s, speed was increasing at an exponential rate, then progress slowed to a crawl after we passed 2Ghz in the early 2000s. 15 years later CPUs barely clock twice as fast. Smaller dies, bigger heatsinks. 64-bit CPU with more cores and larger caches, etc. Next we will hit a limit for fabrication. You start getting down to a few nanometers and leakage currect becomes a reality. The masks used for CPU lithography get finer than the wavelength of the UV light you use to cure them and it creates problems. Storage space is the same. HDD or SSD, you can only fit so many bits or logic gates on a finite area. That and the focus is now on efficiency and miniaturization, rather than raw power. The PC industry suffers, first because mobile devices supplanting general purpose machines, and second because with five year old hardware perfectly capable of running the latest software, why bother to update? I guess the sheeple consumers have spoken, and prefer their walled in gardens to the vastness of the open sourced countryside. Well, you can always send the data back to the future, and when you arrive there the results will be waiting for you. The farther you send it the more you can do. Time it just right and you can do billions of petaflops in nanoseconds. It's called temporal overclocking. If you fuck up, your computer turns into a virtual black hole that sucks in everybody else's results too. Now regarding storage space and capacity gains, yes. A lot of the gains in density are coming from improved packaging and not fabrication. And that is happening because up till recently there was a hell of a lot of wasted space. Take a 3.5" HDD, how many 64GB microSD cards can you put in that volume? Also, till recently all memory chips were 2D planar so to speak, now they are 32, 48, and 96 layers in a package. Each layer equaling what used to be an individual chip that you could hand-solder. Not because of process shrinkage, but because of packaging improvements! Yeah, we'll be having loads of fun if the ReRAM and Memristor memory get going. You'll have like 32GB of onboard MEMORY.... storage and ram. or 128GB... and then add your dedicated drives. the onboard storage will be the speed of the memory and the RAM allocation will be the size reasonable to allocate unused storage. That's gonna be a fun transition. Probably that will be the most powerful addition to the 4K game systems in a couple of years. 5x todays processing power but a real breakthrough in memory speed and a change in how onboard memory is used. several gigabytes of texture space, no texture copy operations needed, and then no transfer across busses will speed things up and the giant ram cache of unified main memory will just be insane. Kind of like a modern Amiga/AtariST that many of us would envision if Wintel hadn't happened. I think we're almost there. The wife was consulting on the Knights Hill platform and they're doing something like 16GB or 32GB on-package memory. Consider it cache. And with today's speeds and amount of cache levels, it's becoming more a matter of semantics anyways. Not good enough? It sports 400GB/sec for external memory. That's dumping your SSD in like 2 seconds. I have no doubt they could do it on-die, but with that amount of circuitry it's alright to break it into modules and sections for easy testing and assembly. Anyways the whole deal is still smaller than a Pentium-Pro. Edited February 28, 2016 by Keatah 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_ocelot Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 As has been pointed out, you're way off here. Eli built carts that work with a regular SNES and brought them to the show. Mike claimed to have a system that can play SNES carts, emulating a SNES perfectly. There's no need for Eli to own a prototype system himself for this to happen. It is an amazing coincidence that Eli happened to be at the show with one of his SNES carts (for other reasons) and Mike just happened to be there with the Chameleon prototype whose mysterious black box FPGA was not only configured to play SNES carts, it also sported a SNES cart connector. Eli recounts it like it was a surprise -- and it may very well have been -- but given the fart cloud that had been wafting around since the RVGS IGG failure I don't blame him one bit for keeping a cautious arms length distance from Mike and stating Piko has little to no involvement with that crew. Of course it's entirely possible that Mike tipped Eli off beforehand that he was going to be there with something that was configured to be SNES compatible, so on a whim maybe he brought along a SNES cart to call Mike's bluff. So there's another way it could have been a genuine surprise that it took a SNES cart and played it without glitches. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 @jaybird3rd It looks like there is a standard hole drilled in the corner, lower-right IIRC. One of the corners anyways. A lot of my cards have holes similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 in any event, Piko and Collectorvision have been pretty professional about the whole thing since it collapsed, by not saying anything about this further failed attempt to get it the RVGS/CC off the ground. They should just back away slowly, don't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Maybe this departure is better? Edited February 28, 2016 by Keatah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agamemnon2 Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) its funny I wouldnt wipe my ass with a phone with those spec's, slap PI on it and people are going ape shit over it, that's 100% marketing hype horseshit for ya though Your personal hygiene habits aside, I suspect it's because the Pi has things like an IO header and USB ports for people to tinker around with. A phone might be technologically superior, but turning it into something that's not a phone is far harder. I can't say I understand the distaste for marketing, myself, it's the lifeblood of the great capitalist common task, after all. Without marketing, computer games would never have evolved past the Spacewar level of hobbyist creations. For all its faults, the PI has brought thousands of people into the electronics hobby or let them build things like robots or MAME cabinets. Is that really so bad that they're doing it with technologically inferior hardware? Edited February 28, 2016 by Agamemnon2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Not funny. Some people on this forum are in fact religious and may find your joke offensive. Please don't. It's not my joke. Without the farts you should find the video offensive because that televangelist is a known con man and is like those hypocrites that Jesus is known for going off on back in the day. In other words, he causes more offensive to your faith than I ever could because he promises the poor that they will be blessed if they send him thousands of dollars that they don't have while they remain poor(er) and he lives in mansions. The joke is more about adding farts to his over the top acting than religion anyway. He could be selling Bowflex home gym equipment or anything else and adding farts to his reactions would be just as funny. God predestined me to post the video anyway. Could I have done other than what he already knew? Anyway, sorry you were offended. My intent was laughter. Edited February 28, 2016 by Schizophretard 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Why is anyone still paying attention to it? Let it die. Because this is the best worst vaporware console ever! Now it is about A/V mods, pause mods, controller mods, etc. but in the not too distant future getting the Chameleon case mod will be a thing. We will see collectors with different colored Chameleons for each one of their consoles with the appropriate flash carts in numbered prototype Jaguar carts. Mike should be selling the joke of the thing more than the actual thing. If he made a Hello Kitty Backin89 Chameleon case mod for the Atari 2600 then I would be all over it. The "real" thing sucks but the joke of it all is awesome. Edited February 28, 2016 by Schizophretard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I'll keep looking at this to get some laughs when someone more knowledgeable than me discovers what stupid Fax-machine/dishwasher they took the PCB from. The only reason I'm still here. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Looks like the hardware will be based heavily off the Snes JNR. Looks to be fully compatible with the Snes. As good as the original snes. Controllers are also heavily based off the Snes, they are so reliable that they hardwired them in. I predict a bright future for the Coleco Cameleon. Edited February 28, 2016 by Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulBlazer Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 It's like a car wreck -- you want to look away, but you can't. I expect things here will calm down in a day or two, though, and go back to 'pre toy fair' levels of posting. Everyone had a ton to talk about between the events of the toy fair and the KS being a 'non starter' so unless something major happens this will go back to 'low buzz' levels. Which is probably for the best right now. Although I am going to miss catching up on this epic thread when I have my dinner like I have for the last two weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) It's like a car wreck -- you want to look away, but you can't. I expect things here will calm down in a day or two, though, and go back to 'pre toy fair' levels of posting. Everyone had a ton to talk about between the events of the toy fair and the KS being a 'non starter' so unless something major happens this will go back to 'low buzz' levels. Which is probably for the best right now. Although I am going to miss catching up on this epic thread when I have my dinner like I have for the last two weeks. Not sure what you are talking about. It emulated snes perfectly. As good as the original I would say. Edited February 28, 2016 by Matthew 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 It is an amazing coincidence that Eli happened to be at the show with one of his SNES carts (for other reasons) and Mike just happened to be there with the Chameleon prototype whose mysterious black box FPGA was not only configured to play SNES carts, it also sported a SNES cart connector. Eli recounts it like it was a surprise -- and it may very well have been -- but given the fart cloud that had been wafting around since the RVGS IGG failure I don't blame him one bit for keeping a cautious arms length distance from Mike and stating Piko has little to no involvement with that crew. Of course it's entirely possible that Mike tipped Eli off beforehand that he was going to be there with something that was configured to be SNES compatible, so on a whim maybe he brought along a SNES cart to call Mike's bluff. So there's another way it could have been a genuine surprise that it took a SNES cart and played it without glitches. Didn't somewhere in here Eli made the claim that he brought his own SNES to show off the game? The way I understood it was that he brought his own with the intent to show off what he planned to port to the CC but then to his surprise he didn't need his SNES or to port because it already worked. Did I misunderstand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 It's not my joke. Just drop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Just drop it. I assumed an explanation then finishing it off with an apology was dropping it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoRacer Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Just drop it. Counterpoint ignored, defenses up. Typical. Take your own advice, let's just talk about a shitty fictional console. Edited February 28, 2016 by MotoRacer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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