Flojomojo Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 And naturally, the ONLY way to publish such information is in glossy paper magazines, with 90's style layouts on a very relaxed release cycle, at a cost of $9000 per sixty pages. You know, so our children can experience things as we did! Cartridges. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Hierophant Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) "Patreon had been courting us for months" Patreon courts anyone willing to beg the general public for money. Like most MK ventures, Retro Magazine actually isn't a toxic idea at its core. It's the constant MK need to turn a buck, corner the market, etc. that brings about the bad decisions. In a hobby, some things need to either be a labor of love, or not happen at all. That's just the way it is. Its the constant presence of MK and his narcissistic need to constantly be seen and acknowledged to be making an impact in the world of retrogaming but his willingness to use and then discard any person like a condom ultimately dooms his schemes to failure. Edited December 22, 2016 by Great Hierophant 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopDrop&Retro Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I've never contributed on Patreon but I know a little about how it works, there's a few creators I've considered. The way Mike is structuring this is pretty strange. $9,500 per unit cycle is an incredibly high amount for any Patreon. Usually Patreon funds blogs, YouTube channels and podcasts, not print magazines. His scale is essentially like trying to fund a local gaming convention every cycle. But here's the thing- goals on Patreon are supposed to be incremental. That's why you have goals, so that once you reach each one you're able to create more things and therefore people have an incentive to give more and encourage others to join. So say, for $50 per month I can make a video series, at $100 per month I can make a podcast, at $200 per month I can double my output, etc... People don't go to the site and just say "gimme $10,000 for a magazine." The site is designed so creators start small and work their way up to more ambitious projects. We know his goal but what I wonder is what happens next? We know issue 12 already went out, so is he waiting to reach his $9,500 goal before he even starts working on issue 13?? Or does he just keep making the magazine regardless of whether or not the goal's been reached? I really can't tell from his page. Patreon looks easy on the face of it, and in some sense it will be as long as you have die hard fans who keep giving you money regardless of your output. But it's way harder than Kickstarter because unlike KS where you can make lofty promises into the far future and collect the money today, Patron is constantly rolling so backers can leave with their money. Look at Mark from Classic Game Room, he doesn't even disclose his amount earned per month anymore. A lot of people (myself included) feel that his work suffered in quality ever since he went to Patreon, which is the exact opposite of what your backers want to see their money do and I'm sure Mark can see that reaction in the dollar figures. Also it's worth noting Mark still has a better reputation in the community than Mike but only makes about $8,000 per month, good luck hitting that $9,500. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BawesomeBurf Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Look at Mark from Classic Game Room, he doesn't even disclose his amount earned per month anymore. A lot of people (myself included) feel that his work suffered in quality ever since he went to Patreon, which is the exact opposite of what your backers want to see their money do and I'm sure Mark can see that reaction in the dollar figures. Also it's worth noting Mark still has a better reputation in the community than Mike but only makes about $8,000 per month, good luck hitting that $9,500. Yup, I definitely agree with that. I originally contributed to him when he started his Patreon, but soon after I realized that his output wasn't nearly as great as before. Not sure if he needs his staff and the Undertow team back, or maybe his heart's just not in it anymore, but I have a hard time watching any of his current videos. It's a shame, because he was one of my favorite channels for a long time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
random_dave Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 So if $9500 worth of backers are on-board, and MK starts to put an issue together, but then the backers get bored/scared/wise and withdraw at the last minute before it's shipped, MK is gonna be left with a mountain of magazines coming from the printers that noone wants, and he's had to pay for by remortgaging his house/back alley blowjobs Presumably though any of his plans to pay the writers/editors/artists will come after they've printed and shipped and collected a payment from backers, which means that wouldn't happen, and yet again the real people putting the work into the mag will get shafted Sent from my YD201 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlegamer Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Patreon is mostly money laundering and hipster welfare. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipercub Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 So if $9500 worth of backers are on-board, and MK starts to put an issue together, but then the backers get bored/scared/wise and withdraw at the last minute before it's shipped, MK is gonna be left with a mountain of magazines coming from the printers that noone wants, and he's had to pay for by remortgaging his house/back alley blowjobs For that to happen you would need to have angered and offended an entire community to the point that they would register and pledge-withdraw in sufficient numbe...... oh! I get that now! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_convoy Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Patreon is mostly money laundering and hipster welfare. Ehhh... I dunno. I Patreon-ize (is that a word?) maybe $50.00 worth of creators a month. I hear that kind of e-begging criticism a lot, and in some case, yeah, I suppose the shoe fits... but, to me, I feel like I'm giving back to people who's work I've enjoyed free for years and years... people who have produced hundreds of hours of content for me to enjoy. YMMV, of course, but I like Patreon for the most part. The model Kennedy is going for here doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, as he can't simply start production when he meets his goal; the magazine has to be a constant flow in and out of funds, articles and design elements, so I don't really get the point other than to try to replace advertising and newsstand sales. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_convoy Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 No no. There needs to be a magazine covering emulators! It would be a small publication, but there'd be no shortage of content. There's many emulators, and many systems for each emulator! Emulators are always being updated and refined. And each version could warrant a page all its own. There could be discussions about what to emulate next. Peripherals included. How to configure and setup. There could be sections on unusual places emulators are found. Interviews with the developers.Tales from the trenches talking about the trials and tribulations of noobies trying to make it all work in a comedic fashion. Discussion about how an emulator could add virtual hardware to an existing platform in ways not practical in the real world. Discussions on display output devices and setting TV effects. And even a bloopers page that highlights spectacular failures - games that don't work right. Not forgetting sub-columns and filler blips with cheats and hidden easter eggs. There could even be transcribed symposia on how emulators can even better the real-world experience of using real-world hardware. Additional topics could include custom hardware builds, controller set-ups, which store-bought machines work well, a trivia section, a curating and scanning tutorial, reviews of pc-based utilities. Guys! The content list is endless!! But then you would get into the elephant in the room of roms. I mean, of course, most of us have hundreds and hundreds of roms, legal and... otherwise, but a mag devoted to emulation means a tacit approval of piracy, even if it doesn't, if you see what I mean. The folks behind Retro Gamer did a special many, many moons ago called EMULATE! that has the kind of stuff you're talking about. Long overdue for an update. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_convoy Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Yup, I definitely agree with that. I originally contributed to him when he started his Patreon, but soon after I realized that his output wasn't nearly as great as before. Not sure if he needs his staff and the Undertow team back, or maybe his heart's just not in it anymore, but I have a hard time watching any of his current videos. It's a shame, because he was one of my favorite channels for a long time. I contribute to the Patreon at a low level, largely because I figure it makes up for using an ad-blocker when he does stuff I do want to watch. He was at his best when he was talking about games that meant something to him as opposed to games he was given; the problem really started when his channel just exploded in terms of content; quantity over quality. I think he has realized that to some extent, and he is trying to go back to longer, better produced content. I believe he disabled the money view on his Patreon as people (including me) were looking at how much money it was bringing in and thought "he's making plenty of money, he doesn't need my help," which seems valid to me... I've definitely declined contributing to huge Patreons or limited myself to like a buck or whatever when it's bringing in huge money like say Red Letter Media or an outfit like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I have supported a bunch of Patreons for people I like, including Touch Arcade, Smooth McGroove, Brianna Wu, and others. These people have brought out a steady stream of creative, interesting content. I'm proud to tip them a few bucks, because I think they're cool. It's no different than subscribing to AtariAge. Everyone who has the means to do so should think about doing that. The model Kennedy is going for here doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, as he can't simply start production when he meets his goal; the magazine has to be a constant flow in and out of funds, articles and design elements, so I don't really get the point other than to try to replace advertising and newsstand sales. If he weren't such an unimaginative greedball, he could take an incremental approach. WHAT IF for every $300 he collected, he published a Jeremy Parrish deep dive article about something, either as a Kindle Single, free blog post, or PDF download? As if JP wouldn't save his best work (or Wikipedia regurgitation!) for himself or Retronauts ... Why does Kennedy feel the need to shoot the moon and only do things HIS WAY instead of responding realistically to what the market can bear? Why introduce the triple constraints of finite print runs, high printing/mailing costs, and time deadlines? Why does it seem like he won't do anything out of love and passion, not just money? It's possible this is another one of his stupid little psyche-out games, of course. How does one save face and fail without owning it? By putting the responsibility and risk on others, of course! "Oh sorry, we cannot produce anything, because we didn't get enough backers." Perhaps he feels it is better to be thought of as a loser at crowdfunding dumb ideas, than someone who literally cannot deliver. Magazines! Cartridges! This retro gamer cares not for these things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Longtime lurker first time poster. I'm just an old coleco fan along for the ride. Just got a notification from patreon that I might be interested in...... https://www.patreon.com/readretro?utm_campaign=creatoryousupport&utm_medium=email&utm_source=growth&utm_term=creator The original Get Rich Slow scheme. I think he might have peaked. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
random_dave Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I have supported a bunch of Patreons for people I like, including Touch Arcade, Smooth McGroove, Brianna Wu, and others. These people have brought out a steady stream of creative, interesting content. I'm proud to tip them a few bucks, because I think they're cool. It's no different than subscribing to AtariAge. Everyone who has the means to do so should think about doing that. If he weren't such an unimaginative greedball, he could take an incremental approach. WHAT IF for every $300 he collected, he published a Jeremy Parrish deep dive article about something, either as a Kindle Single, free blog post, or PDF download? As if JP wouldn't save his best work for himself or Retronauts ... Why does Kennedy feel the need to shoot the moon and only do things HIS WAY instead of responding realistically to what the market can bear? Why introduce the double constraints of finite print runs and high printing and mailing costs? Why does it seem like he won't do anything out of love and passion, not just money? It's possible this is another one of his stupid little psyche-out games, of course. How does one save face and fail without owning it? By putting the responsibility and risk on others, of course! "Oh sorry, we cannot produce anything, because we didn't get enough backers." Perhaps he feels it is better to be thought of as a loser at crowdfunding dumb ideas, than someone who literally cannot deliver. Magazines! Cartridges! This retro gamer cares not for these things. Well parish has just stepped down as editor in chief of usgamer to focus more on retronauts, now that they've built up a healthy patreon base over the last few years (and he cites Frank cifaldi's work on archiving as a reason for going all in) But yeah, whether you like retronauts or not, that's been the better part of what, 3 or 4 years of working under that model to be at a place where they can cover the cost of a studio space rental, flight costs to get them together, and server costs, with enough left over for him to survive doing some freelance work and putting the money towards gameboy world and good Nintentions MK, obviously looks at the successful patreons (retronauts, Jim sterling etc and just sees dollar signs, but not seeing the back end reality of those kind of projects that have a community that haven't been burnt Anyway, my patreon contributions so far consist of a few podcasts and YouTube channels, that I found more entertaining than TV etc, so rather than paying for a satellite package full of crap, I pay a fraction of that to stuff I genuinely want to see/hear The best part has been that as one video channel found it hard to keep going after a couple of years, they stopped producing, and that meant I didn't have to give them a couple of dollars per episode anymore, and a podcast that was bi-weekly ending up recording a lot less frequent, but would tell everyone to stop backing them because it wasn't fair, but I think a lot of the audience appreciated the honesty and continued to support them Unfortunately for MK, he has none of that good will and faith in his content that he would end up having backers willing to keep the fait I can totally see that he's seen recent events like Danny o'dwyer leaving gamespot and almost overnight end up with 15k per month for his documentaries that he wants to make, but he had essentially a proven track record of creating content that was interesting and that he knew other people wanted to see, Mike just thinks that he knows what other people want to see, and that they'll realise that once he pitches it to them (apologies, I'm a few strong Christmas beers into the evening) but it's a case of supply and demand, a lot of patreons realise theres a demand, and supply that, fortunately ad free and away from the shitness that the modern Internet outlets have had to try to survive, Mike is still of the delusion that he can convince people that they want what he can maybe supply, but the reality is that don't, and that's not how online content is transitioning towards sustainability Sent from my YD201 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Hierophant Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 78 backers, $427 dollars pledged. If almost every one of those backers went for the minimum price tier to get a print copy of the magazine, that would allow for a print run of 71 copies. You know what that means? Instant collectible...until MK starts up the printing press again. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopDrop&Retro Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 Y'know, if Mike was smart about this he could really use it as an opportunity to rebuild his image from the ground up. If those 78 backers are indeed real people who are willing to give him a second chance, then if he really cares about his magazine then he should welcome the opportunity to prove it to them, and possibly prove through actions (not words) that he has good intentions towards the retro gaming community. Seriously, if I were in his shoes, I'd build myself back up by writing blogs, articles, retrospectives and interviews with that $500 bucks of support and hopefully the fruit of my labor would be of such high quality that more people would join because they want to see all of that content get made into a print magazine. It would make for a really cool success story where he regained lost trust by making an outstanding product. But that's not going to happen. He doesn't care if his magazine is shit, all he wants is $9,500 to fall from the sky. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 That's exactly what a genuinely rational and contrite person would have done: take some time out of the spotlight to reflect on how badly they've damaged their reputation, think long and hard about whether they want to remain a public participant in the hobby, and if they decide that they do, put rebuilding trust ahead of raising funds for another rickety enterprise. I like the idea of blogging: it would give him the chance to establish a new track record and finally make a positive contribution without asking people to fork over their money first, and would also give prospective backers a chance to see samples of his writing. It would certainly be a more inspiring way of attracting a new readership than begging yet again for more money and more "second chances." Speaking of which ... I'm suddenly reminded that it was exactly one year ago today that Mike was begging for his last "second chance": Hello Everyone.It is the end of a very tumultuous year for me and in the spirit of Christmas and the holidays I wanted to come in here and ask those of you who will listen to let the past be the past as it relates to this (ad)venture. RETRO VGS is the past and COLECO Chameleon is the future. The Chameleon is not just a rebranded Retro VGS. Despite sharing some of the same internal components the hardware has been completely redesigned to lower the cost while maintaining much of its ability to play a wide variety of games in a variety of ways. To boil this all down to its essence we just want to produce a product that is different, affordable and will bring joy to people’s lives. The market will ultimately decide if we are crazy enough to believe a cartridge console can stand its ground in this age of digital delivery. There are clearly lots of people on both sides of this fence and ultimately it will all come down to the games that can be played and if they are compelling enough to vie for peoples hard earned money.The COLECO branding was a business decision I made to bring instant brand recognition to the Chameleon. But I did not enter into this licensing agreement lightly, knowing that if done so, we have a lot to live up to. COLECO made some very influential, high quality and fun video gaming and electronic products during their time and we will try endlessly to carry on that tradition with the Chameleon. The recognition of having the COLECO logo on the system and the (game and console) boxes will make the Chameleon immediately identifiable by millions of people right from the beginning. In the end this is a good thing for all involved including us, our customers, our suppliers and distributors, our contract manufactures, potential retailers and probably most importantly to game developers. Mark and Chris at River West/Coleco Holdings are also very behind this product and will be helping out in a variety of ways, beginning by inviting us into their booth at Toy Fair which is where they want to officially begin rebuilding this brand in more concrete ways.We know we have a mountain to climb and are prepared to do what it takes to plant a flag at the top. I will once again apologize to all of you for at times dissing some individuals and this community but it was hard being criticized by a group of my Atari and classic game lovin’ peers. I let it get to me on occasion and I do regret all of it. I am aware that we gave you all plenty to poke fun at and criticize but in the end, I believe the product will be much better for going through all of this. In my mind, the best way for me to apologize once and for all is to ultimately create a game system that will make most of you turn a 180 and win over your support and positive influence. And given the chance that is what I will do.All I ask is moving forward into the New Year is you try and give the Chameleon a fair chance to stand on its own, and again forget about the past. Let it speak for itself when we reveal it to you all early this New Year. And finally, let’s respect one another and our opinions (some advice I am directing towards myself) and that goes for both believers and non-believers of what we are trying to do. In the end, we all love and are passionate about video games and sometimes this passion causes us to do uncharacteristic things.Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and I hope you all have a very Happy New Year!- Mike (Emphasis added by me, just to remind everybody of how well it worked out last time.) As I've said before, this now reads like somebody's idea of a sick joke. I'll say this much for Mike: after all that's happened over the past year, it takes a special kind of hubris (if that's even the word for it) to keep on coming back for more. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipercub Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 As I've said before, this now reads like somebody's idea of a sick joke. I'll say this much for Mike: after all that's happened over the past year, it takes a special kind of hubris (if that's even the word for it) to keep on coming back for more. https://youtu.be/3vcJlnCtIeo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 ^^Good movie that was! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leods Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 Y'know, if Mike was smart 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted December 23, 2016 Author Share Posted December 23, 2016 One of the things I hate is that MK is mentioned in the wikipedia Atari Jag page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Jaguar as the last purchaser of the molds, I'd rather have it edited and decouple the RVGS/CC fiasco from the Jag own misfortunes. I don't think it matters for any other console who owns the molds anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickcris Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 One o the thing I hate is that MK is mentioned in the wikipedia Atari page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Jaguar as the last purchaser of the molds, I'd rather have it edited and decouple the RVGC/CC fiasco from the Jag own misfortunes. I don't think it matters for any other console who owns the molds anyway. Hes probably the one that put it on there 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicholasPrime Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 I was going to quote that exact same bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletunes Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 (edited) Unfortunately in this case, Archive.org has a backup copy of the RetroVGS website with a reference to obtaining those molds. Without a reference, the entire paragraph on Wikipedia could be challenged as unverified and thus get deleted, but I suppose since there is a reference, it must remain. Perhaps Wikipedia can be amended with that after the Coleco Chameleon failure, the molds now are owned by Albert of AtariAge, IIRC? At least it would make the Jaguar article end in a major key. The two links on "See also" however are entirely invalid. The Contiki operating system is not exclusive to the Jaguar and actually originally was developed for 6502 based systems (then ported to various embedded devices) and the RetroVGS only had the form factor in common with the Jaguar. Edited December 23, 2016 by carlsson 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 retrololo.jpg 'Pay again' 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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