Disc Functions?

[BladeJunker]

Hello I am working on a multi-system controller that I hope will support the INTV, mostly 9-pin console varieties.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/248136-controller-questions/

 

I don't want to dismiss the unique features of the INTV Disc but on the other hand I don't understand what it does or how it is used well in games without some help. I have a INTV but I don't have enough play time mileage or games to understand the nuances like a true fan has so thus why I ask here.

 

-What can you do with 16 directions over 8 and which games are good examples of using 16 directions?

 

-How does the contact plastic detect the 16 directions, I'm not seeing segments and the Disc part seems smooth and featureless?

 

-Can it detect how much I'm tilting it in one direction?

 

The aim is to approximate the Disc through an analog thumbstick since it has more than the 8 directions of a D-pad. I can't really replicate the INTV Disc on the controller because I have other considerations like the 5200 and adding analog joystick support to the Jaguar. For the INTV I'm introducing trackballs into the mix along with some other input devices through a central slot in the controller.

[mr_me]

This site documents how the Intellivision disc and controller works ( http://www.intellivision.us/faq.htm#_Toc140592061). The disc has no analog tilt ability, it is a digital control. I thought the disc could be programmed as a rotary/spinner control, as it looks like the bits are set up for quadrature but I could be wrong.

 

The 16 directions gives you double the precision over 8 direction controllers for smoother movement and more precise shooting. Many games make use of it, I'll start with two examples: Commando and Bump'n'Jump. These are conversions of original games where the Intellivision versions have extra precision. Intellivision Bump'n'jump lets you move left and right at two speeds where the original was one speed. Intellivision Commando has double the moving and shooting precision over the original.

 

A thumbstick might work okay for many games. Auto Racing is one I can think of that would be more difficult compared to the disc, there may be others. Also, many Intellivision users are accustomed to using the disc with their right thumb.

[+DZ-Jay]

Hello I am working on a multi-system controller that I hope will support the INTV, mostly 9-pin console varieties.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/248136-controller-questions/

 

Nice looking controller, though it seems like it could be a bit cumbersome to hold in the hands.

 

I don't want to dismiss the unique features of the INTV Disc but on the other hand I don't understand what it does or how it is used well in games without some help. I have a INTV but I don't have enough play time mileage or games to understand the nuances like a true fan has so thus why I ask here.

 

The Intellivision Disc is a 16-way directional control, in much the same way as a "D-Pad." There are four Action Buttons on the side of the controller, of which two are hard-wired together, essentially making it three control surfaces.

 

The Keypad is a standard telephone style keypad, with the numbers counting from the top-left, down. It includes the digits 1 through 9, zero, and two additional keys for "Clear" (*) and "Enter" (#).

 

In total, the hand-controller has 31 control surfaces (16 directions + 3 action buttons + 12 keys = 31), and encodes them via eight signal wires. To avoid overlap during transitions, it uses a type of Gray Code. It also depends on specific use-case limitations:

• The Disc and Action Buttons can be read unambiguously together
• The Keypad cannot be disambiguated from the other controls

This means that you have two specific modes "run-and-shoot" (Disc + Action Buttons), or "input-entry" (Keypad). Attempting to mix these modes may lead to undefined or ambiguous signals.

 

Moreover, the Disc is housed on a spring-loaded plastic platform that allows for free rotation and tilting. This does not affect input at all, but is an ergonomic mechanism to allow for pressure to be applied comfortably by pressing the Disc softly at the edges of the disc, and rolling your thumb around to change the input direction.

 

-What can you do with 16 directions over 8 and which games are good examples of using 16 directions?

 

You have more precise directional control with 16 surfaces than with eight. TRON Deadly Discs is a good game to try this on, there are others. There are some people that say that eight-way is enough for many of those games, but if you play Intellivision a lot, and if you compare them side-by-side, you can tell the difference, and feel the limited motion; especially in free-movement games like TRON.

 

Some old games use the Disc not to point a direction, but to detect the change in angle between two pressure points. I believe Golf is one of these, as well as one of the Bi-Planes games. In these games, 16-directions gives you more precise angular control than merely eight.

 

-How does the contact plastic detect the 16 directions, I'm not seeing segments and the Disc part seems smooth and featureless?

 

I believe that underneath the plastic disc, there is mylar sheet with 16 different pressure activated contact points. The Disc and its rotating and tilting platform are merely the user-interface, the input mechanism is below and inside the controller housing.

 

-Can it detect how much I'm tilting it in one direction?

 

No. The 16 pressure points are merely switches, just like a Joystick. It does not detect pressure nor angle of tilt. However, you could build software to track how long it is pressed, and the angular velocity when changing input directions. This may simulate the ability to detect pressure, but it's not the same.

 

The aim is to approximate the Disc through an analog thumbstick since it has more than the 8 directions of a D-pad. I can't really replicate the INTV Disc on the controller because I have other considerations like the 5200 and adding analog joystick support to the Jaguar. For the INTV I'm introducing trackballs into the mix along with some other input devices through a central slot in the controller.

 

I personally suggest you aim for a 16-direction D-Pad. Like I said above, you could play games in eight directions, but it really won't feel the same. Also, some home-brews may take advantage of the 16-way control for special features. I know that I built in my own game the ability to do fast-cornering like Pac-Man, using some special heuristics that rely on 16 directions. Boiling them down to eight, limits this capability. Newer games may use the Disc more creatively.

 

Lastly, a 16-direction Disc is an innate feature of the Intellivision, and one of the reasons it stood out among its peers, so keep that in mind.

 

-dZ.

Edited February 20, 2016 by DZ-Jay

[+DZ-Jay]

I thought the disc could be programmed as a rotary/spinner control, as it looks like the bits are set up for quadrature but I could be wrong.

 

 

You can, not by detecting the spin of the Disc itself, but by rotating the Disc while applying pressure and sampling its position. you can then calculate in software the angular velocity and convert the pressure points to radian angles. This way, you can treat the Disc like a potentiometer knob or similar control. I believe the EXEC had functions for this, which are used in some games.

 

-dZ.

Edited February 20, 2016 by DZ-Jay

[mr_me]

"Some old games use the Disc not to point a direction, but to detect the change in angle between two pressure points. I believe Golf is one of these, as well as one of the Bi-Planes games."

 

You can, not by detecting the spin of the Disc itself, but by rotating the Disc while applying pressure and sampling its position. you can then calculate in software the angular velocity and convert the pressure points to radian angles. This way, you can treat the Disc like a potentiometer knob or similar control. I believe the EXEC had functions for this, which are used in some games.

 

-dZ.

 

 

I wish some games did this but I don't think any do. It would have been nice for Brickout, Stonix, Astrosmash and maybe Auto Racing.

 

PGA Golf is simply point the disc in one of 16 directions And Triple Action Bi-planes is up or down on the disc but it looks like there is at least two levels of up/down control depending on high/low you press the disc

[+DZ-Jay]

"Some old games use the Disc not to point a direction, but to detect the change in angle between two pressure points. I believe Golf is one of these, as well as one of the Bi-Planes games."

 

 

I wish some games did this but I don't think any do. It would have been nice for Brickout, Stonix, Astrosmash and maybe Auto Racing.

 

PGA Golf is simply point the disc in one of 16 directions And Triple Action Bi-planes is up or down on the disc but it looks like there is at least two levels of up/down control depending on high/low you press the disc

 

I'm pretty sure that some games do, though I'll have to test to find out. I know that the EXEC has functions to convert the Disc signal into angles and vice-versa. I seem to recall some games that had a "weird" feel to them because they didn't behave as you would expect when you press the disc in cardinal directions, and I believe that it's because they were treating the Disc differently.

 

In any case, it is something that can certainly be done in new home-brews, which was my stronger point.

[BladeJunker]

This site documents how the Intellivision disc and controller works ( http://www.intellivision.us/faq.htm#_Toc140592061). The disc has no analog tilt ability, it is a digital control. I thought the disc could be programmed as a rotary/spinner control, as it looks like the bits are set up for quadrature but I could be wrong.

 

The 16 directions gives you double the precision over 8 direction controllers for smoother movement and more precise shooting. Many games make use of it, I'll start with two examples: Commando and Bump'n'Jump. These are conversions of original games where the Intellivision versions have extra precision. Intellivision Bump'n'jump lets you move left and right at two speeds where the original was one speed. Intellivision Commando has double the moving and shooting precision over the original.

 

A thumbstick might work okay for many games. Auto Racing is one I can think of that would be more difficult compared to the disc, there may be others. Also, many Intellivision users are accustomed to using the disc with their right thumb.

Darn was hoping the contact rings might have acted like a radius of detection.That would have been nice to have Paddle like control on INTV. Was thinking how it's never been a good idea to wire controllers directly into a console as it really closes off peripheral futures, like how do you plug a NES Advantage into a Famicom. Strange for the first model of INTV because there are many pre 80s consoles with controller ports, thought it was an era thing but its just a poor company decision.

 

I will try to get those titles and experience that for myself. I'm familiar with Commando so I can understand how a little more directional control could help with dodging the dangers. Two speeds in Bump'N'Jump, interesting.

 

Yeah its an approximation at best with a thumbstick, some devices just don't have enough historical recurrence to become part of the controller I'm making, another good example is the rotary joystick found in a dozen or so arcade games. I've been trying to approximate that through a combination of D-pad and Paddle or maybe just 2 D-pads.

[Intymike]

 

I'm pretty sure that some games do, though I'll have to test to find out. I know that the EXEC has functions to convert the Disc signal into angles and vice-versa. I seem to recall some games that had a "weird" feel to them because they didn't behave as you would expect when you press the disc in cardinal directions, and I believe that it's because they were treating the Disc differently.

 

In any case, it is something that can certainly be done in new home-brews, which was my stronger point.

 

 

Turbo has this steering wheel feel.

[BladeJunker]

Nice looking controller, though it seems like it could be a bit cumbersome to hold in the hands.

Yeah you're right, it's the 90 degree right angle on the sides of the shape. Gamepad "handles" flared out to more angle as things evolved, this aspect is actually what makes the Dreamcast controller uncomfortable to grip for long periods because it pinches the wrists rather than keeping them straighter. I'll change that in the next revision of the drawing.

 

If you mean size or bulk that is a concern that could change things when put into practice, can't use a gamepad properly with too much weight.

 

The Intellivision Disc is a 16-way directional control, in much the same way as a "D-Pad." There are four Action Buttons on the side of the controller, of which two are hard-wired together, essentially making it three control surfaces.

 

The Keypad is a standard telephone style keypad, with the numbers counting from the top-left, down. It includes the digits 1 through 9, zero, and two additional keys for "Clear" (*) and "Enter" (#).

 

In total, the hand-controller has 31 control surfaces (16 directions + 3 action buttons + 12 keys = 31), and encodes them via eight signal wires. To avoid overlap during transitions, it uses a type of Gray Code. It also depends on specific use-case limitations:

• The Disc and Action Buttons can be read unambiguously together
• The Keypad cannot be disambiguated from the other controls

This means that you have two specific modes "run-and-shoot" (Disc + Action Buttons), or "input-entry" (Keypad). Attempting to mix these modes may lead to undefined or ambiguous signals.

 

Moreover, the Disc is housed on a spring-loaded plastic platform that allows for free rotation and tilting. This does not affect input at all, but is an ergonomic mechanism to allow for pressure to be applied comfortably by pressing the Disc softly at the edges of the disc, and rolling your thumb around to change the input direction.

 

It does impress me having 16 direction in 1980 even if digital. Right 3 Action Buttons not 4, ambidextrous support I'm guessing.

 

Okay so the keypad can only work by itself without interfering with the other controls? I kind of expected that from the pinout specs as everything seems to crisscross a bit and all keypads have to overlap in input just to get more keys using limited pins.

 

So the feel of it is more ergonomic than analog in nature. I have done the rolling thing sometimes, its a comfortable maneuver, a thumbstick comes close to that.

 

You have more precise directional control with 16 surfaces than with eight. TRON Deadly Discs is a good game to try this on, there are others. There are some people that say that eight-way is enough for many of those games, but if you play Intellivision a lot, and if you compare them side-by-side, you can tell the difference, and feel the limited motion; especially in free-movement games like TRON.

 

Some old games use the Disc not to point a direction, but to detect the change in angle between two pressure points. I believe Golf is one of these, as well as one of the Bi-Planes games. In these games, 16-directions gives you more precise angular control than merely eight.

 

 

I believe that underneath the plastic disc, there is mylar sheet with 16 different pressure activated contact points. The Disc and its rotating and tilting platform are merely the user-interface, the input mechanism is below and inside the controller housing.

 

 

No. The 16 pressure points are merely switches, just like a Joystick. It does not detect pressure nor angle of tilt. However, you could build software to track how long it is pressed, and the angular velocity when changing input directions. This may simulate the ability to detect pressure, but it's not the same.

 

 

I personally suggest you aim for a 16-direction D-Pad. Like I said above, you could play games in eight directions, but it really won't feel the same. Also, some home-brews may take advantage of the 16-way control for special features. I know that I built in my own game the ability to do fast-cornering like Pac-Man, using some special heuristics that rely on 16 directions. Boiling them down to eight, limits this capability. Newer games may use the Disc more creatively.

 

Lastly, a 16-direction Disc is an innate feature of the Intellivision, and one of the reasons it stood out among its peers, so keep that in mind.

 

-dZ.

I can see the type of game that this is shown off best in, wide open arenas with a player sprite surrounded by adversaries. I think this will take some practice to wrap my head around, much like trackballs the Disc is a bit of blindspot in my perception of controls.

 

I have Tron Deadly Discs but I should probably get Golf and some Bi-Plane titles to try this angle thing out.

 

In some ways the floating aspect of the Disc is good since it did allow modders to augment that part more easily than if it were attached.

 

It does seem to be heading in that direction of stored software inside to deal with the eccentricities of all the platforms. Hard to say how close it will get in approximation but as software it is at least malleable.

 

I didn't come to disappoint INTV fans but it is a smaller demographic in the big picture that its hard to justify that specific hardware. I mean what other platforms have a Disc with 16 directions other than the Intellivision? The keypad in comparison is a generality as the 2600, 5200, Intellivision, Colecovison, and Jaguar have 12 button keypads so I can't not include it in some way.

The only thing coming to mind is the middle slot of my controller as an INTV Disc could be put into that port as an accessory just like the trackball. Of coarse it runs into the same problem I walked into of where the keypad goes if not in the middle, 2 items stacked?

[mr_me]

 

 

Turbo has this steering wheel feel.

 

Yes it does. That's the first time I see the disc working as a spinner control. Thanks!

[BladeJunker]

How does the mylar contact sheet work, is it the squeezing of the 2 layers together that gets detected?

 

Are all models of Intellivision controllers comparable to each other or is one better?

 

How is the Flashback controller, any good? Could probably get a Disc off one rather than gutting a real INTV controller. I know there pinout differs which for the life of me don't know why they did that, can't even use them for replacements. Lol you can buy a Flashback from Bed Bath & Beyond, so that is widely sold. ^_^

 

Do you think if the Disc could detect its angle would that be useful in INTV games? I do think concentric ringed contacts might work for speed ramp up.

[+intvsteve]

Yes, when you press the disc, buttons, keys, you close a connection, and that's what's detected. Pressing a certain location on the disc closes certain traces which produce an encoding indicating one of the 16 directions.

 

The Flashback controllers might actually be the best version of the controllers to date. What we don't yet know is how durable they are. The fire buttons are a bit softer and easier on the fingers than the originals. Most fans don't much care for the Intellivision II controllers.

 

It is unfortunate that the Flashback controllers don't produce the same signals as the originals, though adapter cables have been made by at least two enterprising forum members here. Or just DIY - IIRC 8 of the 9 wires are in the wrong place.

 

About your last question... I don't quite get the concentric ring idea. Physically, the disc does not offer any sort of slide action out from the center. It can only produce one of those 16 directional values. By knowing which one of those directions is selected, you have an 'angle'. You can think of the controller as a 16-slice pie, or a 16-hour clock. You could try to see how values change as you rock the edge between the different angles, but due to its nature, you can switch instantly from, say, straight 'North' to straight 'South' and never go through the other directions.

 

If you were to completely rethink the actual physical nature of the disc itself, I suppose you could have a concentric ring 'slider' type of control, but why bother with that? Just have a slider that moves in two directions.

Edited February 22, 2016 by intvsteve

[BladeJunker]

Yes, when you press the disc, buttons, keys, you close a connection, and that's what's detected. Pressing a certain location on the disc closes certain traces which produce an encoding indicating one of the 16 directions.

I've seen inside during cleaning a while ago but at the time I didn't get it lol "How does this thin plastic work?".

 

The Flashback controllers might actually be the best version of the controllers to date. What we don't yet know is how durable they are. The fire buttons are a bit softer and easier on the fingers than the originals. Most fans don't much care for the Intellivision II controllers.

 

It is unfortunate that the Flashback controllers don't produce the same signals as the originals, though adapter cables have been made by at least two enterprising forum members here. Or just DIY - IIRC 8 of the 9 wires are in the wrong place.

That good huh, well that sounds like they could at least fill in for my purposes. Yeah a lot of new stock is always questionable in durability, time will tell. I've heard that about the buttons. The INTV II looked different enough that I thought it might feel different.

 

I'm glad they can be adapted to work. It still doesn't make sense why they switched it around when the Flashback port could be made to line up with the original pinout of the INTV controllers. The only thing I hope with revisions or new models is they stop doing that on all Flashbacks.

 

About your last question... I don't quite get the concentric ring idea. Physically, the disc does not offer any sort of slide action out from the center. It can only produce one of those 16 directional values. By knowing which one of those directions is selected, you have an 'angle'. You can think of the controller as a 16-slice pie, or a 16-hour clock. You could try to see how values change as you rock the edge between the different angles, but due to its nature, you can switch instantly from, say, straight 'North' to straight 'South' and never go through the other directions.

 

If you were to completely rethink the actual physical nature of the disc itself, I suppose you could have a concentric ring 'slider' type of control, but why bother with that? Just have a slider that moves in two directions.

Well since I'm building from scratch why not consider adding some features to the Disc that don't interfere with what it does already, if there had been a second generation Intellivision what might have been added to the Disc to improve it.

 

I'd probably need a different Disc shape at least on the underside of it to make it detect differing rings where you press. I admit I don't have the idea completely designed, maybe something like the NES Max. I was just wondering if anybody wanted such functions for future homebrews while we have the design exploded into pieces.

 

I guess with speed ramp up you could make a sprite move at different speeds like analog thumbsticks do just based on how far you move the Disc in one direction. Actually I think the 16 directions might have fixed the problems found with the NES Max in that it didn't have enough detection gradation.

 

The slider sounds alright, reminds me of the Speed Roller on the Super Action Controller.

 

[+DZ-Jay]

I've seen inside during cleaning a while ago but at the time I didn't get it lol "How does this thin plastic work?".

 

That good huh, well that sounds like they could at least fill in for my purposes. Yeah a lot of new stock is always questionable in durability, time will tell. I've heard that about the buttons. The INTV II looked different enough that I thought it might feel different.

 

I'm glad they can be adapted to work. It still doesn't make sense why they switched it around when the Flashback port could be made to line up with the original pinout of the INTV controllers. The only thing I hope with revisions or new models is they stop doing that on all Flashbacks.

 

Well since I'm building from scratch why not consider adding some features to the Disc that don't interfere with what it does already, if there had been a second generation Intellivision what might have been added to the Disc to improve it.

 

I'd probably need a different Disc shape at least on the underside of it to make it detect differing rings where you press. I admit I don't have the idea completely designed, maybe something like the NES Max. I was just wondering if anybody wanted such functions for future homebrews while we have the design exploded into pieces.

 

I guess with speed ramp up you could make a sprite move at different speeds like analog thumbsticks do just based on how far you move the Disc in one direction. Actually I think the 16 directions might have fixed the problems found with the NES Max in that it didn't have enough detection gradation.

 

The slider sounds alright, reminds me of the Speed Roller on the Super Action Controller.

 

 

With any new controller design, you'll need to keep in mind the adoption by users and by developers. Both are a huge factor in making the device worth the effort of design and production. The same is true on any console from any era. A nice idea can quickly turn into an expensive flop if there are no interesting games taking advantage of its special features, or if not many people care to use it.

 

Just food for thought.

 

-dZ.

Edited February 23, 2016 by DZ-Jay

[BladeJunker]

 

With any new controller design, you'll need to keep in mind the adoption by users and by developers. Both are a huge factor in making the device worth the effort of design and production. The same is true on any console from any era. A nice idea can quickly turn into an expensive flop if there are no interesting games taking advantage of its special features, or if not many people care to use it.

 

Just food for thought.

 

-dZ.

I guess there isn't much interest in a version 2.0 of the INTV Disc, I'm making more work for myself and should just go with a regular Disc I can buy. Can't help myself lol, I always think about what else something can do. At the very least I can cordon it off as module work just like the keypad and trackball as sub projects so the whole doesn't overwhelm me.

 

Whether or not anybody cares about trackballs or other devices on INTV or not I'm adding it regardless if it can be supported, the process of building it causes it to happen inherently. I mean I can't make software for it but I can at least connect it dormantly in way that doesn't catch fire lol.

 

As far as the Disc itself I don't think I have much choice other than the center module position, ergonomically its a bit like the N64 controller in how you move your hand over to the center stalk to operate it. This won't be as ambidextrous as the original but I could possibly make the left D-pad mirror the 4 face buttons, well 3 buttons technically plus the duplicate. That should make for a more comparable INTV experience than those blue plug and plays at least.

http://www.intellivisionlives.com/retrotopia/direct2tv.shtml

I have a couple of these, they work just fine but it sure doesn't feel like playing an INTV. I didn't think I'd miss the original layout till it was removed completely lol. It also makes me think of the finger gymnastics necessary for INTV games on the PS2 to get keypad functions.

 

The keypad continues to be ergonomically weird when paired with another device, like some kind of tail. The INTV, 5200 trackball, and Colecovision trackball setups are breaking my Swiss Army knife design. I think the best I can do is dongle it off with some cord so it rests on a table top because I don't think it will stack well.

 

I appreciate the advice but I'm not concerned with flopping yet, right now its a question of wasted personal money if it doesn't work in major ways. It will take some careful shopping and spending for parts that will have to be planned out to the nickel, no pennies in Canada anymore lol. It is still a long ways from second party mass production or crowdfunding stages.

 

[BladeJunker]

I think the last thing I can say about the INTV functions through my controller is the dual cord allows for independent use of the Disc & Keypad at the same time on the same controller if both ends are plugged in. This behavior is afforded by the 2600/7800 support which has to have the keypad in port 2.

 

Thank you to all for help on this matter, I hope the compromise I described sounds decent enough with the module approach for the Disc. The Ub has to cover many systems so some aspects will only be decent rather than perfect approximation. I'm moving back to the original post so progress updates will be over there, I will link to this thread for anyone curious of INTV support over there. When I mod my INTV with controller ports I'll probably post any recordings here.

[+DZ-Jay]

I think the last thing I can say about the INTV functions through my controller is the dual cord allows for independent use of the Disc & Keypad at the same time on the same controller if both ends are plugged in. This behavior is afforded by the 2600/7800 support which has to have the keypad in port 2.

 

 

I believe user nurmix of the Intellivisionaries Podcast manufactures a similar control: it's actually two Flashback controller joined so that their matrices overlap. Apparently, some people think it works well, though I haven't tried it. Building one from scratch would avoid having to cannibalise existing working hardware.

 

-dZ.

[BladeJunker]

 

I believe user nurmix of the Intellivisionaries Podcast manufactures a similar control: it's actually two Flashback controller joined so that their matrices overlap. Apparently, some people think it works well, though I haven't tried it. Building one from scratch would avoid having to cannibalise existing working hardware.

 

-dZ.

I just started listening to that podcast, a lot to catch up on, 2013 so they are talking about the upcoming INTV Flashback. ^_^ Glad to have such information posted, I wasn't an INTV kid so you have to hear it from the people that were there to make sense of it.

 

Thanks I'll keep Nurmix in mind when I get to that stage. I don't like to cannibalize either, thought about getting a Flashback on sale and sacrificing one for the cause but that is like more than half of it cut off and thrown away. I'll see what I can do about making my own mylar, would be nice to have a custom layout with a nice clean connector and a minimized footprint. I don't have the slot dimension finalized yet but the keypad is likely to be the deciding factor in the total scale of the controller.

[7800fan]

Just keep in mid with Y adapter on Intellivision, you still risk goofy behavior if you used the disc on one controller and keypad on other at the same time. If you wanted to be able to use disc and keypad at the same time, one would need to use the 2 separate controller ports for it.

[BladeJunker]

Just keep in mid with Y adapter on Intellivision, you still risk goofy behavior if you used the disc on one controller and keypad on other at the same time. If you wanted to be able to use disc and keypad at the same time, one would need to use the 2 separate controller ports for it.

Oh sure, that's why I'm using a double cord system but I guess I'll have to emboss them 1&2 to distinguish one from the other. Not going to fuse them together like the NES Advantage plug did since that overrides any option for 2 players.