Millipede 5200

[christo930]

19 hours ago, space_dungeon said:

I disagree that 2600 Millipede plays more like the arcade Millipede and there people on here that agree.

I have no reason to doubt there are people who like the 8 bit and 5200 versions better.  It really comes down to personal preference. To me, the 2600 version feels more authentic.

 

19 hours ago, space_dungeon said:

In comparison, 5200 Millipede looks, sounds, feels, and plays better than the 2600 version. The 2600 version is only a little faster. But the 5200 version speeds up in the later boards.

It certainly looks and sounds better.  You'd be hard pressed to find a port that doesn't look better than the 2600 version.

 

 

[Tempest]

Funny this topic should come up again.  Programmer Stephan Crandall just emailed me last week.  He didn't have anything new to add about Millipede other than the 5200 port was killed off by the Tramiel takeover like we've always suspected.

[space_dungeon]

8 minutes ago, christo930 said:

I have no reason to doubt there are people who like the 8 bit and 5200 versions better.  It really comes down to personal preference. To me, the 2600 version feels more authentic.

 

It certainly looks and sounds better.  You'd be hard pressed to find a port that doesn't look better than the 2600 version.

 

 

 

 

The 2600 Millipede color difference between the play area and the player wand is a problem. The colors between the grey, and the pink color is so poor, you can lose your player in the mix. The number of enemies that share the same color makes this game that much more unmanageable at times.

You have to focus on your player and rely on peripheral vision to take out the millipede unless the millipede starts getting close. This all does effect 2600 gameplay and the feel of the game.  

Edited March 12 by space_dungeon

[christo930]

4 hours ago, Tempest said:

Funny this topic should come up again.  Programmer Stephan Crandall just emailed me last week.  He didn't have anything new to add about Millipede other than the 5200 port was killed off by the Tramiel takeover like we've always suspected.

It's a shame that Tramiel was just as blind as the rest of the industry and mistook a shakeout for a total collapse of an industry, as if video games were the hoola-hoop of the 1980s.  He could have kept the consoles alive during the period he took over until he released the 7800.  There were a bunch of games that were basically done and could have been released pretty cheaply.  Though I dislike Tramiel, there is no denying he is good at cost cutting and may have been able to keep Atari profitable while keeping the consoles alive. 

 

All the "industry insiders" and "experts" really thought the game console was dead and that gaming, if it had a future at all, would rely on the home computer.  They just ignored how crowded the home computer market was and could not see that it was already consolidating down a few computers worldwide and that further consolidation was coming.  The last successful home computers to launch was like a year away (ST and Amiga). Every one of them missed it.  Every one of them missed the big N.  In like 3 years video gaming went from a near exclusive American industry to 100% foreign.

 

There is a pretty famous book from the era about "excellence in business" called "In Search of Excellence"  This was required reading in businesses and schools across the land.  This book was about these very special companies who embodied the very essence of "excellence' in management, customer service and most of all, profitability!!  These were the standard bearers the rest of the business community across the land could learn from and do their best to imitate.  Everyone took this book really seriously.  A best seller for 4 years in a row and selling over 3 million copies. The book is loaded with examples who went on to crash and burn fantastically barely after the ink was dry.  Atari, IBM, Wang and many others were listed in this book. 

 

Most of the time, these people are friggin clueless. Whether its academics writing books on excellence in business or executives in respect to their own fields. CLUELESS!

[christo930]

5 hours ago, space_dungeon said:

The 2600 Millipede color difference between the play area and the player wand is a problem. The colors between the grey, and the pink color is so poor, you can lose your player in the mix

Can you try to explain this differently, maybe add a screen shot?  I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

[RB5200]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:21 PM, Albert said:

have a ton of 5200 box inserts that were made to fit 5200 carts, so it would be unnecessary to hack up a 2600 insert.  If anyone needs some, please let me know, I'll sell them for $2 each plus shipping.

 

 ..Al

@Albert pm sent

[space_dungeon]

7 hours ago, christo930 said:

Can you try to explain this differently, maybe add a screen shot?  I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

Basically when you go through the different colors, the overall playing field blends together and you lose your place especially when the game goes fast.  

 

 

 

Edited March 13 by space_dungeon

[space_dungeon]

On the 5200, there's way more contrast and detail. 

[phuzaxeman]

9 hours ago, space_dungeon said:

Basically when you go through the different colors, the overall playing field blends together and you lose your place especially when the game goes fast.  

 

 

 

Great point. . There are times on the higher levels when the mushrooms (rectangles) begin to crowd the screen, and the game flickers, and you have the "bugs" coming from diagonal; it's hard to see where you are. 

[Dutchman2000]

Some comments about 5200 Millipede from Ed Logg:

 

"Months ago I also reviewed a Millipede for the 800 (or 5200 I don't remember). I sent my comments back and just last week received a letter back for Richard Frick thanking me and giving me a list of changes they have implemented. When I talked to him he recalled when the comments came back and how the programmer grumbled about doing any more changes. However after the changes were made the programmer has become very excited about the new program. Now ISN'T that a heart warming story. It sure made my week. I hope we see more cooperation like that in the future."

[Dutchman2000]

On 3/12/2024 at 10:41 AM, Tempest said:

Funny this topic should come up again.  Programmer Stephan Crandall just emailed me last week.  He didn't have anything new to add about Millipede other than the 5200 port was killed off by the Tramiel takeover like we've always suspected.

If the game was finished at the end of January 1984, I wonder why Atari didn't release it?  Tramiel didn't take over until July.  Looks like it sat in limbo for 6 months. 

[Tempest]

35 minutes ago, Dutchman2000 said:

If the game was finished at the end of January 1984, I wonder why Atari didn't release it?  Tramiel didn't take over until July.  Looks like it sat in limbo for 6 months. 

Good question.  But there were a lot of finished 5200 games from early 84 that were canned for no particular reason.  I guess Atari was cooling on the 5200 by 84.

[Kr0tki]

Apparently it was being delayed together with the computer version. Computer Entertainer first listed Millipede on their "Availability Update" in vol. 2 no. 11 (Feb 1984) as due to release in the 2nd quarter of that year for both the 5200 and the 8-bits, then it was being pushed back a few times in the following issues before appearing for the last time in vol. 3 no. 5 (Aug 1984) with the projected date of 3rd quarter of 1984.

[Tempest]

6 hours ago, Kr0tki said:

Apparently it was being delayed together with the computer version. Computer Entertainer first listed Millipede on their "Availability Update" in vol. 2 no. 11 (Feb 1984) as due to release in the 2nd quarter of that year for both the 5200 and the 8-bits, then it was being pushed back a few times in the following issues before appearing for the last time in vol. 3 no. 5 (Aug 1984) with the projected date of 3rd quarter of 1984.

When did the computer version finally get released?

[Kr0tki]

Computer Entertainer last mentioned Millipede in Aug 1984, as mentioned above, and they never mentioned the game again. According to the Atari 8-bit FAQ, it was featured at the Winter CES of 1985 and released somewhere in Winter/Spring 1985 (as it appeared in the Summer 1985 issue of Atari Explorer).

[Jet-X]

On 5/10/2024 at 6:56 PM, Tempest said:

Good question.  But there were a lot of finished 5200 games from early 84 that were canned for no particular reason.  I guess Atari was cooling on the 5200 by 84.

They were canned for a great reason: 5200 was dead. It was a flop in the marketplace, and software sales had withered and if I am not mistaken they had stopped sales of the 5200 already. And I say that as a 5200 owner back then. Why it was ultimately released for the 8-bits, bigger installed base and they were still buying software.

Edited June 5 by Jet-X

[Indrid Cold]

On 7/3/2016 at 8:35 PM, DamonicFury said:

Seems to me to be the same version that was released for the Atari computers. Plays just fine on the 5200 as far as I can tell.

Howdy!!!  I've seen numerous videos of 5200 Millipede on YouTube and various other sites, but they all look the same.  This game has a really nasty framerate that is SWALLOWED UP by the Atari 5200 version of Centipede that just kicks major ass all over the street with Millipede. Centipede on the 5200 is PHENOMNIAL, with a buttery smooth frame rate that is LOCKED no matter WHAT is going on, on-screen, and graphics that are IDENTICAL to the arcade version with 2 exceptions: The MUSHROOMS in the 5200 have a kind of "triangular" look to them, as opposed to the Arcade version's mushrooms which look more "rounded" look to them.  2nd exception is that the 5200 version is presented in WIDESCREEN (landscape) format opposed to the Arcade version which is "portrait" oriented.  If they ever got Millipede on the 5200 to run like Centipede I'd nab it in a microsecond, but as is I'll pass. And yes, I have the 5200 Trak-Ball and its purchase to play Centipede (and Missile Command, and other games like Galaxian, Defender, Super Break out) is easily justified.

 

Just my 2 cents. 

Edited June 9 by Indrid Cold

[zzip]

On 3/12/2024 at 4:44 PM, christo930 said:

It's a shame that Tramiel was just as blind as the rest of the industry and mistook a shakeout for a total collapse of an industry, as if video games were the hoola-hoop of the 1980s.  He could have kept the consoles alive during the period he took over until he released the 7800. 

Well he did help create the narrative that you should buy your kids a computer instead of a game console while he was at Commodore.   He may have believed it himself.   He bought Atari with the intent to launch his next computer.   Selling Atari's videogame inventory was a quick way to bring in cash to help fund his projects...   at first.   Eventually they saw there was a future in it and started to actually invest in consoles, but it was always too little too late.

 

On 3/12/2024 at 4:44 PM, christo930 said:

All the "industry insiders" and "experts" really thought the game console was dead and that gaming, if it had a future at all, would rely on the home computer.  They just ignored how crowded the home computer market was and could not see that it was already consolidating down a few computers worldwide and that further consolidation was coming.

It was about becoming the dominant player in the computer market.    It wasn't quite obvious that PC's would end up dominating because in the early 80s they were far too expensive and not particularly powerful yet.

 

On 3/12/2024 at 4:44 PM, christo930 said:

There is a pretty famous book from the era about "excellence in business" called "In Search of Excellence"  This was required reading in businesses and schools across the land.  This book was about these very special companies who embodied the very essence of "excellence' in management, customer service and most of all, profitability!!  These were the standard bearers the rest of the business community across the land could learn from and do their best to imitate.  Everyone took this book really seriously.  A best seller for 4 years in a row and selling over 3 million copies. The book is loaded with examples who went on to crash and burn fantastically barely after the ink was dry.  Atari, IBM, Wang and many others were listed in this book. 

 

Most of the time, these people are friggin clueless. Whether its academics writing books on excellence in business or executives in respect to their own fields. CLUELESS!

Groupthink is very powerful.   It's often not good for your career to go against what the 'experts' are saying so you just go along with whatever the current thinking is.  And there's always some business consultant/author pointing out what the successful companies are doing that you should be doing.   They'll sell a lot of books/seminars but ultimately most companies will fail trying to implement until the next guru comes along.  Reminds me of a few years ago, "innovention" and "innovate" were big buzzwords that companies were using everywhere.  Even the food service company that ran the friggin' cafeteria had "innovate" in their slogan.    Obviously innovation is important, but it's relatively rare and requires outside-the-box thinking.  You certainly aren't going to make your employees suddenly innovative by subjecting them to the word "innovate" 20x per day!

[christo930]

On 6/10/2024 at 10:32 AM, zzip said:

Well he did help create the narrative that you should buy your kids a computer instead of a game console while he was at Commodore.   He may have believed it himself.   He bought Atari with the intent to launch his next computer.   Selling Atari's videogame inventory was a quick way to bring in cash to help fund his projects...   at first.   Eventually they saw there was a future in it and started to actually invest in consoles, but it was always too little too late.

 

It was about becoming the dominant player in the computer market.    It wasn't quite obvious that PC's would end up dominating because in the early 80s they were far too expensive and not particularly powerful yet.

 

Groupthink is very powerful.   It's often not good for your career to go against what the 'experts' are saying so you just go along with whatever the current thinking is.  And there's always some business consultant/author pointing out what the successful companies are doing that you should be doing.   They'll sell a lot of books/seminars but ultimately most companies will fail trying to implement until the next guru comes along.  Reminds me of a few years ago, "innovention" and "innovate" were big buzzwords that companies were using everywhere.  Even the food service company that ran the friggin' cafeteria had "innovate" in their slogan.    Obviously innovation is important, but it's relatively rare and requires outside-the-box thinking.  You certainly aren't going to make your employees suddenly innovative by subjecting them to the word "innovate" 20x per day!

From what I understand, he did everything in his power to undermine the 7800 with shoestring budgets.  But I really don't understand this. There were 3rd parties, but from what I can tell, even they were being forced somehow to use the smaller ROM size.  Not putting the POKEY or even some other sound chip in the cartridges was also a bad idea. 

 

There was consolidation of the computer market even in the mid 80s.  PCs were taking over both the home and business markets.  The Apple II still had a good small business base, but the writing was on the wall that Apple wanted them to upgrade to a Mac.  The ST never stood a chance.  I would think it was 8 bit sales keeping Atari from bankruptcy.

 

The Abilene paradox.  It's where everyone in a group doesn't want to do something, but then everyone thinks everyone else wants to do it and so they go along with it.  It really is amazing.  Everyone in the group doesn't want to do X. But each individual wants to please the other people and so they feign excitement about doing the thing they don't want to do.  It's named after a town in Texas where an entire family takes a trip to a restaurant in Abilene, despite the fact that each person in the family, including the one who suggested it, didn't want to do it.  From the Wikipedia entry:

 

On a hot afternoon visiting in Coleman, Texas, the family is comfortably playing dominoes on a porch, until the father-in-law suggests that they take a [50-mile (80-km)] trip to Abilene for dinner. The wife says, "Sounds like a great idea." The husband, despite having reservations because the drive is long and hot, thinks that his preferences must be out-of-step with the group and says, "Sounds good to me. I just hope your mother wants to go." The mother-in-law then says, "Of course I want to go. I haven't been to Abilene in a long time."

The drive is hot, dusty, and long. When they arrive at the cafeteria, the food is as bad as the drive. They arrive back home four hours later, exhausted.

 

One of them dishonestly says, "It was a great trip, wasn't it?" The mother-in-law says that, actually, she would rather have stayed home, but went along since the other three were so enthusiastic. The husband says, "I wasn't delighted to be doing what we were doing. I only went to satisfy the rest of you." The wife says, "I just went along to keep you happy. I would have had to be crazy to want to go out in the heat like that." The father-in-law then says that he only suggested it because he thought the others might be bored.

The group sits back, perplexed that they together decided to take a trip that none of them wanted. They each would have preferred to sit comfortably but did not admit to it when they still had time to enjoy the afternoon.

 

I just imagine a group of marketers and engineers in Atari all expressing how great an analog joystick and phone pad would make a great controller for the new upcoming "super-system."  Nobody wants to rock the boat and say "Uh, why? It's a terrible idea!  Have you been in an arcade lately?  All the big hits have digital joysticks or trackballs"

 

.

[zzip]

12 hours ago, christo930 said:

From what I understand, he did everything in his power to undermine the 7800 with shoestring budgets.  But I really don't understand this. There were 3rd parties, but from what I can tell, even they were being forced somehow to use the smaller ROM size.  Not putting the POKEY or even some other sound chip in the cartridges was also a bad idea.

Jack thought all you had to do to win was sell things cheaper than the competition.   According to one off the GCC guys, Jack wanted to sell the 7800 so cheaply there would be no money for them, and that's why they held up the release.   And I think Atari was publishing most of the third-party developed 7800 games themselves?   

 

13 hours ago, christo930 said:

 

There was consolidation of the computer market even in the mid 80s.  PCs were taking over both the home and business markets.  The Apple II still had a good small business base, but the writing was on the wall that Apple wanted them to upgrade to a Mac.  The ST never stood a chance.  I would think it was 8 bit sales keeping Atari from bankruptcy.

I think it was around 86 or 87 that you started to see sub-$1000 PCs appear, before that they were extremely expensive, and clones were often not 100% compatible.   IBM's own PCjr aimed at the home market failed.   So around the time the ST was conceived, the 16-bit market still seemed up for grabs,  and the ST did have a few good years in the beginning before the PC onslaught really started taking a toll.   In retrospect PC seems inevitable, but that wasn't the case at the time.

 

13 hours ago, christo930 said:

One of them dishonestly says, "It was a great trip, wasn't it?" The mother-in-law says that, actually, she would rather have stayed home, but went along since the other three were so enthusiastic. The husband says, "I wasn't delighted to be doing what we were doing. I only went to satisfy the rest of you." The wife says, "I just went along to keep you happy. I would have had to be crazy to want to go out in the heat like that." The father-in-law then says that he only suggested it because he thought the others might be bored.

The group sits back, perplexed that they together decided to take a trip that none of them wanted. They each would have preferred to sit comfortably but did not admit to it when they still had time to enjoy the afternoon.

I've had that experience!   We went furniture shopping and decided on a new kitchen set.   One the way home the wife got angry at me that we bought the kitchen table that I wanted and she didn't get a say.  I was like what are you talking about, I thought you wanted it?   Turns out neither of us really liked the table all that much but thought the other did!   

 

13 hours ago, christo930 said:

 

I just imagine a group of marketers and engineers in Atari all expressing how great an analog joystick and phone pad would make a great controller for the new upcoming "super-system."  Nobody wants to rock the boat and say "Uh, why? It's a terrible idea!  Have you been in an arcade lately?  All the big hits have digital joysticks or trackballs"

Yeah in a corporate environment, it you go against the grain you may be seen as a troublemaker and maybe don't get invited to planning meetings, it's very easy for groupthink to develop.   for the 5200-era it seemed like the console makers weren't doing any actual customer research and instead copying what the competition was doing.   "Intellivision has a keypad, so we need a keypad", and they all started announcing crazy amounts of peripherals like trackballs, keyboards, steering wheels, and never checking if customers were really going to purchase these things especially when typically they were only supported by a handful of games.

 

[ledzep]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

Yeah in a corporate environment, it you go against the grain you may be seen as a troublemaker and maybe don't get invited to planning meetings, it's very easy for groupthink to develop.   for the 5200-era it seemed like the console makers weren't doing any actual customer research and instead copying what the competition was doing.   "Intellivision has a keypad, so we need a keypad", and they all started announcing crazy amounts of peripherals like trackballs, keyboards, steering wheels, and never checking if customers were really going to purchase these things especially when typically they were only supported by a handful of games.

 

I don't see how you get around a keypad if you're going to release games that, on a computer, would have used some of the keyboard keys.  Unless you have a bunch of buttons on the console itself and then it has to be right in front of you (Odyssey²).  Intellivision didn't just "have a keypad", it actually used that thing for a lot of games, sports, sims, and those games were fun though the controller disc itself was painful.  So I can see other console makers thinking that they could take advantage of a keypad for strategy games, adventure games, etc., cut into Intellivision's monopoly on those types of games.  If only the 5200 had actually done that beyond just Star Raiders and a couple sports games.

 

Having specialized controllers makes the home gaming experience closer to the arcade experience, there's no way around that (and there is no discussing that with someone who thinks it's better to just convert every game to a digital joystick, what's the difference?).  But I agree, there weren't loads of arcade games that used trak-balls or steering wheels (an official spinner controller would have been nice).  So what, having them would open up options for new console games that weren't simply arcade ports.  But apparently Atari wasn't in the mood for that with the 5200, anyway, they were killing it off soon after releasing it for no good reason.  At least we did get the amazing Trak-ball Controller out of it.

 

All you have to do is look at those lists of released aftermarket 2600 controllers to see that, ya, gamers were more than ok with buying extra/different controllers so long as there was a use for them.  I have that goofy 2600 Omega Race game CIB so that I can have that booster grip controller add-on and I regret never buying the blue Tron joystick controller.  There's nothing wrong with offering alternate peripherals so long as you've actually got a use for them.

[zzip]

28 minutes ago, ledzep said:

I don't see how you get around a keypad if you're going to release games that, on a computer, would have used some of the keyboard keys.  Unless you have a bunch of buttons on the console itself and then it has to be right in front of you (Odyssey²).  Intellivision didn't just "have a keypad", it actually used that thing for a lot of games, sports, sims, and those games were fun though the controller disc itself was painful.  So I can see other console makers thinking that they could take advantage of a keypad for strategy games, adventure games, etc., cut into Intellivision's monopoly on those types of games.  If only the 5200 had actually done that beyond just Star Raiders and a couple sports games.

considering the NES came along with simple controllers and took over the market,  it showed the keypad concept was not strictly necessary for a games console.  I think what would have worked better was adding a few extra action buttons arranged ergonomically so that your "muscle memory" knows which button to push.   One problem with the keypads is they often required overlays so you know which button to push, and if you lost the overlays or try playing on an emulator, it's like playing guessing game to find the right button.   You could also use screen menus to select functions instead of mapping each to a distinct button, although that might not be best for sports games where you don't want your opponent to see what play you entered.

[Giles N]

Any 5200-problems due to controller-types, wouldn’t depend on number of action-buttons or keypad or no keypad, but solely on whether it would be comfortable to use.

 

I use a Wico Command stick, Y-cabled to an original controller.

 

Plays very good. Even feels ‘Arcadey’.

Only ‘sub-par element is its need for calibration from game to game, but no biggie.

 

Had Atari (bitd) produced such a high-end controller coming with the system, no-one would’ve gotten hung up on that part (and they would probably have bought the 5200 over the Intellivision or perhaps the Colecovision).

 

Get the basics straight and you have a chance to get somewhere.

Edited June 27 by Giles N

[zzip]

12 minutes ago, Giles N said:

Any 5200-problems due to controller-types, wouldn’t depend on number of action-buttons or keypad or no keypad, but solely on whether it would be comfortable to use.

 

I use a Wico Command stick, Y-cabled to an original controller.

 

Plays very good. Even feels ‘Arcadey’.

Only ‘sub-par element is its need for calibration from game to game, but no biggie.

 

Had Atari (bitd) produced such a high-end controller coming with the system, no-one would’ve gotten hung up on that part (and they would probably have bought the 5200 over the Intellivision or perhaps the Colecovision).

 

Gets the basics straight, then you have a chance.

Yeah for as much as Atari and Coleco made a big deal about how arcade-like their consoles were,  you'd think they'd ship with arcade-like controls to drive that arcade experience home.  

Edited June 27 by zzip

[ledzep]

29 minutes ago, zzip said:

considering the NES came along with simple controllers and took over the market,  it showed the keypad concept was not strictly necessary for a games console.  I think what would have worked better was adding a few extra action buttons arranged ergonomically so that your "muscle memory" knows which button to push.

 

That's not going to work with a game that has a load of options.  I'm not saying that there were hundreds of those games or that those were the best games, but once you have strategy and sim games with a bunch of options, it's easier to lay them out on a keypad if you don't have an actual computer keyboard to work with.  I don't see how a few buttons and that miserable '+' direction thing on the NES controller would be anywhere near adequate for a game like Star Raiders or Intellivision style sports games.  It would have been cool for some of those more intricate Intellivision games to have been ported to the 5200, I'm thinking like Utopia (but with cooler graphics) which was fun, I remember playing that a lot -

 

https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Mattel_Intellivision//Manual/formated/Utopia_-_1981_-_Mattel_Electronics.pdf

 

But either Mattel was too scared to let Atari have some of their cooler games (though they were happy to accept Atari ports) or there was no time before the crash to devote resources to do that.

 

32 minutes ago, zzip said:

One problem with the keypads is they often required overlays so you know which button to push, and if you lost the overlays or try playing on an emulator, it's like playing guessing game to find the right button.

 

I don't know where you get that idea, my friends and I quickly memorized which buttons did what so we typically played without overlays after a few runs (also to preserve the overlays themselves).  When in doubt, we'd just look at the overlay itself to remember which button did the thing we wanted.  The Intellivision had many games that took advantage of the overlays, we never had a problem with that control scheme.

 

I mean, how is that different from memorizing what the various joypad buttons do on a Playstation controller?  There's like 8 buttons that aren't normally direction buttons, yes?  And not even an overlay, so how did that succeed?  Any gamer worth his salt can quickly remember what button does what after a few plays.

 

36 minutes ago, zzip said:

You could also use screen menus to select functions instead of mapping each to a distinct button, although that might not be best for sports games where you don't want your opponent to see what play you entered.

 

Exactly, which is why computer keyboard buttons weren't that great, either, since the other player can see which ones you pressed.  Better to have the keypad.  But only for games that actually needed that, basic arcade games wouldn't rate such a controller.  Strategy games, sims, puzzle games, all those could benefit.  Imagine the 2600 Adventure game with a keypad (and more memory, of course), how that would change what you could carry or use as a weapon, potions or spells or who knows what.  But one joystick with one goddamn fire button really limits what can be done.  I'm surprised that the 2600 keypad controller wasn't utilized more often for that but I bet it was because it wasn't physically connected to the joystick, too hard to hold both separately.