CRT Sets

[Jim Pez]

Any of you ever hook up an unmoded retro console on a modern flat tv using an up upscaler and also hook it up to a crt without the upscaler? Did it look pretty much the same on the modern tv ?

Edited December 30, 2016 by jim1174

[juansolo]

 

Any of you ever hook up an unmoded retro console on a modern flat tv using an up upscaler and also hook it up to a crt without the upscaler? Did it look pretty much the same on the modern tv ?

 

 

 

I've done it. It's all on my site if you want to read (stuck the link in my sig). Sadly it's just not that straight forward.

 

Modern panels (generally) have poor low-definition analogue signal handling. My Panasonic Plasma isn't even that new, but it's got no VGA, no S-Video. It has a single SCART on there, but it only really supports sync on composite video with RGB. Which in itself causes problems. Component and HDMI through it are absolutely no problems at all.

 

FWIW it went something like this:

SNES - Standard RGB SCART with sync on composite video works ok, but gets some dot crawl and other artifacts on the picture. RGB SCART with sync on luma has a great picture, but it's half off the screen. Plugging it into a cheap Chinese scaler with the latter lead sorted that and gave a great picture.

PC-Engine - This was pre-modded to run RGB over SCART and was one of the few consoles that just plugged in and worked well

Megadrive - This is an Asian model. So 240v but NTSC. It's been modded with a switch to go between 50hz Pal / 60hz NTSC Jap and US. Really easy to do (same as the Saturn). That again works really well out of the box. But on the panel it does have jailbars. They're not massively noticeable. But they're there.

N64 - This was an utter nightmare. As I mentioned my panel doesn't have S-Video. I originally had a PAL N64, which would work fine plugged into my amplifier which does take S-Vid, and outputs it as Component. But only with PAL material. Run NTSC through it and it goes to hell. I put this down to the N64 actually outputting PAL-60 at this point and the amp just not handling it. The pic on PAL stuff was ok, but the N64 has some horrid anti-aliasing that just looks amazingly bad on a panel. Long story short, I got a Jap N64, modded it for RGB and stuck a 240V PSU on it. After all that, it worked fine on all material regardless of region.

Saturn - This was another nightmare. I had two Saturns, a PAL and an NTSC Asian one (the Asian one again being a 240V model that ran Japanese software). On my panel neither were good. With the PAL console (all plugged in via RGB SCART) the screen juddered and got what looked like cross-talk interference. With the NTSC the interference was gone, but the panel intermittently lost sync and then sorted itself out. Which was annoying.

 

A lot of it comes down to the panel and how it handles these old signals. I have a friend with a few panels and we got totally different results out of those. For example my PAL Saturn worked perfectly on his Toshiba (hence I sold it to him). But it liked my NTSC one even less than mine. He also has a very old Sony panel, that was from the analogue era and you can plug ANY of my consoles into it and the picture is perfect. It, on the other hand, has lousy digital signal handling.

 

Coming onto scalers, I had a couple. I had the cheapy Chinese one that was about £20, and I had an SLG in a box, which is actually a very cool piece of kit. Just about all of the above consoles work fine in the Chinese scaler and get around a lot of the problems with my panel. The SLG is a little fiddlier to use, but when set up the results can be staggering.

 

The SLG is a sync splitter, scaler and scan line generator all in one box. Input is RGB Scart, output is VGA (so I had to run it into a VGA-HDMI box to get the signal to my TV). They take some setting up, and there is no one setting that will suit every console as they're all analogue and have an element of overscan. So you come up with a compromise setting and go with it. Occasionally having to adjust the scaler or re-sync it. Not a big issue. Also all this processing will introduce an element of lag. It's inevitable. Also scanlines will darken the picture, but you can address that in the picture settings on the scaler section to get the brightness back. The final problem was that it couldn't handle some of the high res modes the Saturn threw at it. It only effected a couple of games, but still worth bearing in mind.

 

The output is VERY good across the board, and the best picture you will get out of an old console on a new panel. The scanlines help mask some of the horrid textures that the N64 does, and makes most 240p material look a load better. It's really not the most straight forward thing in the world to do, but if you want everything on one display, it's the best way to do it.

 

However, if you've got the room, I highly recommend splitting your systems and putting all the old 240p consoles through a CRT. There's no lag, the scanlines are inherent in the technology, as is the brightness of the picture. It hides a multitude of sins when it comes to the output of the old consoles being made with that resolution in mind. In all, it looks natural and right.

 

It's also cheap... I bought 5 CRT displays for £10 and two journeys worth of fuel. Not crap either: a 20" domestic Sony Trinitron. The bloke also threw in a 13" Trinitron portable. I also bagged a 20" BVM, 20" PVM and 13" PVM for the cost of fuel in going to get them. The picture from even the lowliest of them is IMO better than the scaled image on the panel, because it's right for the consoles. Sure they need a bit of attention to get the best out of them. I was in the back of the domestic set with a service manual and trimmers and I got a decent picture from that. The pro monitors are a little easier in the respect of you don't have to take them apart, but are more complex in that you could do with knowing what you're doing in order to get the best out of them. But it's only the same as getting the best out of your scaler (though without all the geometry and alignment fun).

 

I'm waffling. But for what it's worth, as soon as I went CRT, there was no going back and I sold up all the scaling and processing gear. That said, for convenience, if I hadn't gone as daft and only had a few old consoles to deal with, I'd certainly have kept it all and ran it through my panel. I have a serious lack of space and getting the 2nd set up takes up a tonne of it. Even a small 20" CRT is a big old box.

 

There is no wrong or right answer to this. Scalers have their place, as do CRTs. Whether one is better than the other depends entirely on what you're trying to achieve.

Edited December 30, 2016 by juansolo

[Asaki]

We are discussing CRTs. A Retropie on a CRT television via composite. Are there any issues?

Have you looked into a homebrew modded Wii? A lot of emulators support 240p mode (scanlines on a CRT), and being able to use the Wiimote for light gun games is pretty nice.

[mr_me]

Good point. So more importantly the Wii can output 240p via composite. If the Raspberry PI is limited to 480i on a CRT using composite how would these old games be affected? Would games be displaying at 30hz rather than 60hz? Can the Raspberry PI do 240p on a CRT?

[keepdreamin]

Any of you ever hook up an unmoded retro console on a modern flat tv using an up upscaler and also hook it up to a crt without the upscaler? Did it look pretty much the same on the modern tv ?

You need to be more specific. What upscaler? HD crt, standard definition CRT, PVM?

 

RGB to component? Composite?

 

But as a vague answer, no it won't look the same. Different display technology

Edited December 30, 2016 by keepdreamin

[Keatah]

Ohh how things have gotten so complex.. Remember grandma's Zenith Chromacolor II, the RF switchbox, and the console. That's all we ever needed! And we were happy!

[Jim Pez]

You need to be more specific. What upscaler? HD crt, standard definition CRT, PVM?

RGB to components he ? Composite?

But as a vague answer, no it won't look the same. Different display technology

 

I was asking about connecting a non moded retro console to a standard analog crt Useing composite cables and then hooking the same console to a modern tv useing composite and a good upscaler like the framemeister

[keepdreamin]

I was asking about connecting a non moded retro console to a standard analog crt Useing composite cables and then hooking the same console to a modern tv useing composite and a good upscaler like the framemeister

 

Composite will look better on a CRT. But then again, you shouldn't be feeding the framemeister composite unless you absolutely have to. A lot of un modded consoles can do Svideo or better.

[NinjaWarrior]

It won't look the same

[+Black_Tiger]

Until something breaks. Or goes intermittent.

We're already at the point today where we can get anything repaired and the sky's the limit as far as mods. It's only getting better.

[Keatah]

I will have to disagree. While spare parts and substitute parts and alternate circuits exist for CRT's, the problem is in the skillset. There aren't a whole hella lotta folks than have the practical knowledge of repairing and aligning a CRT to like new condition. And then the next issue is getting the CRT *to* those skilled people. Shipping cost is high and when a CRT set goes bad it's likely tossed and the tosser goes on a dumpster dive to get another one.

 

And with more and more mainstream media going HD and 4K, people are beginning (knowingly or not) to expect perfect video output from a 40 year old console - and hoping mods are the way to go about it. Oftentimes they reveal other defects in the console that manifests itself as a new type of noise - noise that got buried in a crap composite/NTSC signal.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Keatah

[juansolo]

True but the more modern sets get, the more they drop legacy support. Analogue RF in is all but gone here in the UK now, my 5 year old plasma no longer has S-Video or VGA on it. It does have composite though, but who knows for how long they'll keep fitting that to sets? It's SCART connectivity is woefully lacking/broken also. Which means you're left with putting something in between. Now I've done that with an SLG In A Box (like a Framemeister essentially) and a VGA-HDMI converter. But that comes with it's own set of compromises in the form of processing lag. A picture that is often too good, large and revealing for the source. They can be a bit fiddly at times and you often have to mod the consoles/cables to get them working at their best. Finally they can cost a lot. But it does get you connected and running.

That's not to say CRT is perfect by any means, it's all compromise as it was back in the day when you plugged your console into the family TV.

I am lucky in that to a degree I can fix and set up these things myself. I understand that becomes more of a problem when you need to find someone to do it for you.

[+Black_Tiger]

It's never been easier to pick up skills and we have all the info we'd ever need available at our finger tips for free. Lots of hobbiest groups host intros to electronics repair.

 

Everybody doesn't have to learn how to do everything themselves, there will always be people who continue this kind of work as a hobby at the very least.

 

30 years ago similar naysayers would say that no one in the future would be wasting their time on these old rotten video games once they became obsolete. They'd all be too busy play VR games with motion controls and driving around in flying cars. Yet here we all are.

[NinjaWarrior]

Funny, I still watch TV on my CRT

 

I would only go 20" and below..I can carry it

[AtariLeaf]

Hope this is ok to ask in this thread but does anyone know what may be causing this weird behavior on my CRT. It's an RCA TruFlat, I can't remember the model number at the moment. But sometimes when I play, and only with certain games, I'll get a get a red blob of color on one side of the screen and a green one on the other side that will slowly form as I'm playing. I tried to take a picture but it doesn't show up well. You can see it clearly when I turn whatever system I'm playing off and you have just the blue screen of the CRT. The colors will fade quickly once the system is off which is why it's hard to get a picture but hopefully you get some idea from this pic. Also it happens whether I'm using an RF connection or composite. I have no magnetic items nearby that may be causing it.

Edited March 19, 2017 by AtariLeaf

[BigO]

It does look like part of the mask is getting magnetized. That may be because the internal degaussing coil isn't quite doing the job? Maybe a thorough degaussing with an external coil will kill off the residual for a while.

 

Is that a common problem with that set or that CRT? Maybe you can find somebody on the internet who has addressed the issue?

Edited March 19, 2017 by BigO

[CatPix]

I had the same behavior with a Daewoo TV set (a late 4/3 model made in the early 2000's.

The problem was more important, as the dots would keep for several minutes, and would display on Digital TV too (internal DTV decoder, not external).

It's a degaussing issue, and is a common issue on "flat" CRT TVs, especially late made models like theDaewoo, Samsun SlimFit series, etc.

[AtariLeaf]

Ok thanks, there are side mounted speakers on this particular set I was wondering if they were causing the problem. I'll try to find a cheap degausing coil as there's no built in function on this set like my old CRT monitor used to have.

[AtariLeaf]

It does look like part of the mask is getting magnetized. That may be because the internal degaussing coil isn't quite doing the job? Maybe a thorough degaussing with an external coil will kill off the residual for a while.

 

Is that a common problem with that set or that CRT? Maybe you can find somebody on the internet who has addressed the issue?

 

I only found one mention with this particular model but they never followed up if degaussing solved the problem or not.

[toptenmaterial]

Lol

[toptenmaterial]

I haven't gone through the whole thread in detail so forgive me if I've missed this, but are there favorable results in new sets by using Game mode, turning off auto contrast etc? My HD set is a bit older and has no game mode, so yes it suffers from perceptible lag with the 8/16 bit stuff.

[madhatter667]

I seem to do a bit of all three. I emulate on my computer, which puts out to an LCD/LED monitor. Been using this monitor for years, and it's been pretty dependable. Doesn't look bad with emulated scanlines for classic stuff. Works well for PC games of course. I use CRTs for PS2 and back when dealing with real hardware. It's what they were meant to run on. Didn't purchase a single one of my current gaming TVs, they were either curbside, or craigslist grabs. If you don't mind grunt, and free, why not run on the displays best suited? I also run PS3 on a newer LG flatscreen TV, but that belongs to my brother in law. It's a pretty nice TV, looks good, and had low input lag as far as gaming goes. I put the softmodded Wii into that, and run emulation on it from time to time... and that looks surprisingly good. I'm a bit of a dinosaur, and prefer the CRT for the old stuff (and have been getting into Scart to component RGB), but Wii emulation through component (and using built in doublers, and scanline emulation) looks pretty convincing. Preferences for the most part I think. I'm not going to put extra effort into hooking up my classic stuff to a new display when I have a couple really nice era appropriate screens to route it through. At least if I am ever forced to change, I know there are decent options for doing so.

[keepdreamin]

If you don't mind grunt, and free, why not run on the displays best suited?.

Well, not everyone wants their living arrangements to look like the inside of a video editing studio circa 1993.

[madhatter667]

Meh. My philosophy doesn't have to work for everyone else. I know for a fact that I am not alone in my manner of dealing with it though.

[Austin]

Meh. My philosophy doesn't have to work for everyone else. I know for a fact that I am not alone in my manner of dealing with it though.

 

Part of one's philosophy should also include the understanding as to why people do not do things the way you do.

 

I haven't gone through the whole thread in detail so forgive me if I've missed this, but are there favorable results in new sets by using Game mode, turning off auto contrast etc? My HD set is a bit older and has no game mode, so yes it suffers from perceptible lag with the 8/16 bit stuff.

They are probably more favorable than on older sets where the option may not be available, but still not ideal. Ultimately old consoles look awful on a modern display without an upscaler, and are likely to have input lag with or without the options turned off.