Budget Atari and Capcom arcade cabinets to see release this fall!

[John Stamos Mullet]

Noted goalpost-shifter continues to shift goalposts. From "DIY is better" to "Arcade1Up is overpriced crap and people should demand better" to "Muh 4K TV" back to "DIY is better"

 

We're past DIY. I think everyone in this thread acknowledged DIY, and some have said they weren't interested in building their own.

 

People are flocking to this in droves because they have no interest, desire, or knowledge to DIY it. I'm very interested in someone coming up with a comparable, but Mullet-approved, retail cabinet. And it must be less than $300, since that's retail. I don't know what markup these days are, but at one time it was about 30-33%. I'm sure people would accept rough estimates and be forgiving when it comes to foreign manufacturing costs.

 

I'm tired of the shifting goalposts. Please tell us how you would design a retail cabinet. If you can't, give us a break from your harping that it should be a $50 cab (or whatever price) instead of $300. It also must be 100% legal, right down to artwork and emulators.

 

Oh, and don't forget to include designing a retail box and high-quality product protection (ie, foam).

but that's just it. The only goalpost shifting happening here is your own. I've never once harps on the packaging, retail box, etc, because none of that matters to me. Boxes are to be throw out or recycled.

 

I'm not going to play your game, because I don't feel any pity for poor arcade1up and their burden of trying to bring a product to market and all the woes of retail delivery that come with it. They put themselves under that microscope.

 

And since you can't argue that the 13 years out of date TN LCD panel in these isn't utter shitballs, and the cheap decals, etc aren't of expected quality, you're shifting the goalposts to say "I'd like to see you do better!"

 

I don't want to do better than they have. I just don't think it's worth doing AT ALL if you have to cut so many corners that it becomes a joke.

 

And I'd like to not watch a bunch of otherwise intelligent, well spoken people who presumably know better encourage cheap products into the market to the point where they tell wholesale lies to support them.

[OrionB]

I can't be bothered to sit through an hour long video -- is there a source for the claim that these panels are from 2005? The datasheet says this model is from 2013.

 

The Panelook entry also says this panel was introduced in 2013, and that it is still in production.

 

Also, just to add -- it is 100% unreasonable to expect anything but a TN panel for a product at this price point. TN should be acceptable for this application because almost everyone plays these games straight on.

[John Stamos Mullet]

. TN should be acceptable for this application because almost everyone plays these games straight on.

everyone who is buying these is 4 feet tall?

[PlaysWithWolves]

Mullet, all I'm asking is for you to back up your claims of it being overpriced for mass market retail sales. It's as simple as that.

[JBerel]

It's not too hard to make broad price estimates.

Typical retail costs by components (being very conservative)

$50 LCD monitor with power supply

$125 Particle/fiber board shelf/cabinet/vanity box

$ 90 Joysticks, buttons, switches, speaker, amp, wiring harness

$ 30 Multigame plug and play system

------------

$295

 

So even if they're getting all their parts in bulk at huge discounts, after shipping, packaging etc. their margins are pretty tight.

[OrionB]

everyone who is buying these is 4 feet tall?

The minimum viewing angle from the datasheet is 70 degrees vertical and 75 degrees horizontal. That is far from ideal but good enough for this application.

 

(Edit to add: that is viewing angle in each direction, so if you prefer it's 140 degrees vertical and 150 degrees horizontal.)

Edited October 3, 2018 by OrionB

[John Stamos Mullet]

Mullet, all I'm asking is for you to back up your claims of it being overpriced for retail sales. It's as simple as that.

and we've discussed the reasons plenty:

 

Cheap TN panel.

Cheap knockoff controllers.

Decals the rub off their art within hours of assembly.

Front panels that crack and chip when moving the assembled cab.

Too short.

No volume slider.

No access to arcade controls for speed/lives/options

Small number of games per cab.

Delayed release

Inaccurate controls

Gameplay latency

[JBerel]

A quick aside....I once had some idiot tell my wife that 180 degree viewing angle for a TV was horrible. LOL

[negative1]

the freeplay arcade guys were cherry picking their arguments.

 

also, they didn't even have or try an actual unit, they only

talked about other peoples reviews.

 

---------------------

- they actually didn't go through the gamelists for each cabinet

 

- they bedgrudgingly admitted the centipede cabinet had a decent selection of games

 

- they also admitted the final fight cabinet might be decent also

 

- they never addressed what was actually wrong with the sf2 one, except that it didn't have turbo,

and they don't know the difference between super sf2, and super sf2 turbo

 

so i wonder if they really actually know about the sf2 games at all

 

- they didn't address what was wrong with galaga / galaxian

 

- the didn't mention pac-man, or space invaders either

 

 

so they actually didn't really say that much, besides 'emulation is bad'..

 

i looked into the teamplay machines, and they are well built,

 

but i don't know how much they cost.

 

also, missile command looks terrible stretched out, and the cabinets look weird.

 

so i don't know why they think those are so great either.

 

 

 

 

later

-1

Edited October 3, 2018 by negative1

[PlaysWithWolves]

I didn't ask for a list of grievances. I wanted to hear how you would improve them while still maintaining the $300 target market . You know: Continuing the conversation we were having.

 

Almost all of your list are opinions on how you feel these are not a value. Other people understand there may be reasonable compromises and be just fine with them. For example, the YouTuber who put all new hardware into his cabinet was perfectly fine with keeping the TN panel. Decals rubbing off is, indeed, disappointing but at least they are trying to make it right.

 

and we've discussed the reasons plenty:

Cheap TN panel.
Cheap knockoff controllers.
Decals the rub off their art within hours of assembly.
Front panels that crack and chip when moving the assembled cab.
Too short.
No volume slider.
No access to arcade controls for speed/lives/options
Small number of games per cab.
Delayed release
Inaccurate controls
Gameplay latency

[Flojomojo]

and we've discussed the reasons plenty:

 

Cheap TN panel.

Cheap knockoff controllers.

Decals the rub off their art within hours of assembly.

Front panels that crack and chip when moving the assembled cab.

Too short.

No volume slider.

No access to arcade controls for speed/lives/options

Small number of games per cab.

Delayed release

Inaccurate controls

Gameplay latency

Have you even been to a toy store in the last fifty years?

[John Stamos Mullet]

I didn't ask for a list of grievances. I wanted to hear how you would improve them while still maintaining the $300 target market . You know: Continuing the conversation we were having.

 

Almost all of your list are opinions on how you feel these are not a value. Other people understand there may be reasonable compromises and be just fine with them. For example, the YouTuber who put all new hardware into his cabinet was perfectly fine with keeping the TN panel. Decals rubbing off is, indeed, disappointing but at least they are trying to make it right.

 

we (you and I) weren't having a conversation that needs to continue. You were making demands, and I was ignoring them.

 

My point was never that you could put better quality parts into this at this same price point. My point was that if you have to cut this many corners to get to this price point, it's not worth doing at all, since this price point isn't very good to begin with.

[+thanatos]

we (you and I) weren't having a conversation that needs to continue. You were making demands, and I was ignoring them.

 

My point was never that you could put better quality parts into this at this same price point. My point was that if you have to cut this many corners to get to this price point, it's not worth doing at all, since this price point isn't very good to begin with.

 

We know you hate it. Other people will buy it and you can continue to think they are stupid. The existence of this can continue to offend you forever. And when you find one at Goodwill falling apart for $10, feel free to post your Office Space video of smashing it with a bat.

[John Stamos Mullet]

 

We know you hate it. Other people will buy it and you can continue to think they are stupid. The existence of this can continue to offend you forever. And when you find one at Goodwill falling apart for $10, feel free to post your Office Space video of smashing it with a bat.

and equally, I know that others love it before ever having seen it in person, and will drop $1200 on these and make poorly narrated, extremely awkward videos of themselves praising these things as the best video game product they've ever owned - right up until another company announces Arcade2up! And they run out and buy 4 more of them because "gotta catchem all!" Fever controls their wallet.

[mr_me]

....

 

Inaccurate controls

Gameplay latency

These last two points would be concerning if true. Do you have more information about it. I understand controls are not authentic but why wouldn't they be accurate. Has anybody that has played one complained about latency. Edited October 4, 2018 by mr_me

[Azathoth]

[...] and just finding the "best" way to play these games. Since the VERY best would be an authentic cabinet [...]

That point there is my biggest bone of contention with these things. As a gamer, not a collector, hoarder, packrat, or shelf queen, but as a genuine fan of certain games the concept of these is fantastic. I look at SFII like NE146 does Space Invaders. The best way to experience it is the same way you originally did, the same way the original creators designed it to be played: a proper 6 button setup with commercial grade controls and a vivid monitor in your face along with stereo speakers blasting in your ears. This purports to finally be able to not only bring the true arcade experience home, but even improve it by making it more affordable with a smaller footprint.

 

Instead it's almost like you're getting all the negatives of a dedicated cabinet (or emulation) with very few of the positives. You've got weird, offset control layout using cheap components with poor audio and a small, cheap LCD screen. You've got all the (potential) hiccups of emulation like sound glitches, lag, and dropped frames, but none of advantages like savestates, rendering options, or region selections. Hell, you don't even have access to the bare minimum dipswitches you would on a real board.

 

I've seen a lot of people shitting their pants over a potential Mortal Kombat cabinet. Have you ever really sat down and played arcade MK solo for more than the first 3 rounds? It's absolutely infuriating even on the default difficulty. A casual person buying it just for nostalgia would be ready to pull their hair out within 15 minutes, and that goes for US version of Super SFII Turbo as well. It would have added pennies to the overhead to add a small button to access the dips settings on these machines and there is no logical reason not to. The excuse that they don't want to confuse or inundate customers obviously doesn't hold water. If you expect your buyers to assemble a friggin' arcade cabinet then they can handle the concept of an options menu button.

 

For me the trackball, spinner, and to an extent SFII cabs at least had the authentic controls thing going on with them, the one thing you couldn't get on console. But if the trackball or spinner is wonky, and the stick and buttons are in a weird position plus need to be replaced, then you're right back where you started with a sub-par experience only at a premium price.

[negative1]

For me the trackball, spinner, and to an extent SFII cabs at least had the authentic controls thing going on with them, the one thing you couldn't get on console. But if the trackball or spinner is wonky, and the stick and buttons are in a weird position plus need to be replaced, then you're right back where you started with a sub-par experience only at a premium price.

i've been using trackballs, spinners, and arcade joysticks on almost every console i've ever had

since the saturn, playstation 1, xbox 360 and now the xbox one.

 

there's plenty of alternatives to use controllers on them, and on retro consoles.

 

the ones on the arcade 1up seem worse that just the basic ones you can get on your own.

 

later

-1

[youxia]

Seems the TN Panel Drama has pushed this thread into the B&W discussion template: something is either totally fine or the worst thing since sliced bread. I guess such defensive extremes obfuscate the real valid points which can be found on both sides.

 

Personally I don't have any interest in buying one of these but also do not have a problem with their existence, even at that price point and with lower-quality components. On the other hand, real issues such as shoddy controls or glitching displays (mentioned on previous pages) do need highlighting.

 

@mr_me: latency is a tricky yardstick in such cases since you'd need to conduct some advanced testing to pinpoint it and also people tend to either gloss over it (the owners) or exaggerate it (the naysayers).

[mr_me]

Someone who is intimately familiar with the original game should pickup on a latency problem. There will always be some latency with these things, it's not possible to eliminate 100%.

 

...

 

I've seen a lot of people shitting their pants over a potential Mortal Kombat cabinet. Have you ever really sat down and played arcade MK solo for more than the first 3 rounds? It's absolutely infuriating even on the default difficulty. A casual person buying it just for nostalgia would be ready to pull their hair out within 15 minutes, and that goes for US version of Super SFII Turbo as well. It would have added pennies to the overhead to add a small button to access the dips settings on these machines and there is no logical reason not to. The excuse that they don't want to confuse or inundate customers obviously doesn't hold water. If you expect your buyers to assemble a friggin' arcade cabinet then they can handle the concept of an options menu button.

 

...

So it would be like an arcade experience; you couldn't flip dip switches or use save states in the arcade. Arcade games were meant to be hard. Using mame I leave dip switches as they were in the arcade and I never use save states. I'd be okay with virtual dipswitches but no save states. The main concern is that trackball and spinner sensitivity is set correctly. Edited October 4, 2018 by mr_me

[youxia]

There will always be some latency with these things, it's not possible to eliminate 100%.

 

 

Obviously. My point being that one person might declare it unplayable garbage because of 1-2 dropped frames and another one completely fine despite if it is 7-10. It's all about relative bias in this case.

[John Stamos Mullet]

 

Obviously. My point being that one person might declare it unplayable garbage because of 1-2 dropped frames and another one completely fine despite if it is 7-10. It's all about relative bias in this case.

and with a cheap $15 to $50 plug and play emulation in a joystick device, you expect some latency, because you're paying a dirt cheap price. Whereas, my point with this was that for $300, noticeable latency is unacceptable. Personal biases aside, there needs to be at least some basic level of quality control with something that costs $300. But some people here seem to think that's crazy, and they don't care how bad these things might perform because they love the way they look, so they will completely forgive the poor delivery.

[youxia]

To achieve 0 or super low latency you'd need a FPGA board or a strong PC combined with a decent panel. That would hike the price very considerably.

 

I think 300$ for a low level arcade unit for somebody who mostly likes the looks and can tolerate reasonable low-keyiness is perhaps acceptable (aka not-too-outrageous). But details like the kerrazy Defender controls, the need to rebuild trackballs or the display glitchin out are not.

[John Stamos Mullet]

To achieve 0 or super low latency you'd need a FPGA board or a strong PC combined with a decent panel. That would hike the price very considerably.

 

I think 300$ for a low level arcade unit for somebody who mostly likes the looks and can tolerate reasonable low-keyiness is perhaps acceptable (aka not-too-outrageous). But details like the kerrazy Defender controls, the need to rebuild trackballs or the display glitchin out are not.

and that's just it. one or two of these fumbles in production(cheap decals, cheap sticks, etc) are understandable on a new product line, and you're right a minimal level of latency (1-2 frames) is probably to be expected, and 99% of owners would probably never even notice it. But the accumulation of all of these issues being reported has hit a saturation point that rises to a level of unacceptability.

 

As I said earlier - I don't "hate" these things. I think the idea is novel. I'm particularly interested in the Centipede cab as the combination of real trackball and the specific games they chose are attractive to me personally. But the more reviews and comments come out on these from actual owners, it's quite clear these things are shoddy as hell and not worth the money. If they had just gotten a few of these issues right, and the list of quirks was smaller and more expected - you could easily make an argument for the price point/value.

Edited October 4, 2018 by John Stamos Mullet

[NE146]

Look, I'm not a cheerleader of these things, but also am not dissuaded from "checking them out" myself.

 

I've stated multiple times in this thread that the ones I'm attracted to.. specifically the trackball & spinner cabs, I have some reservations about because my attraction to them is all about the control, and "IF" they tweaked the controls properly or not. I mean.. just looking at videos of the spinner itself and it seems to not spin freely nor have the same ratio to movement like it does on a real Tempest. And people have stated that while the trackball plays fine for Centipede, the physical hardware itself may need some manual adjustment and may not be as tweaked for all the games across the board (Missile Command, Crystal Castles, Quantum) etc.. or whatever.

 

But that's just it.. the majority of us haven't had a chance to even see for ourselves yet. As always, I'm reserving final judgement until I get my hands on one. I may end up thinking the spinner games play fine enough. Or I may not! Ditto for the Centipede.

 

But yeah, I'm definitely getting the SI one because it adds to the collection.

Edited October 4, 2018 by NE146

[John Stamos Mullet]

Look, I'm not a cheerleader of these things, but also am not dissuaded from "checking them out" myself.

 

I've stated multiple times in this thread that the ones I'm attracted to.. specifically the trackball & spinner cabs, I have some reservations about because my attraction to them is all about the control, and "IF" they tweaked the controls properly or not. I mean.. just looking at videos of the spinner itself and it seems to not spin freely nor have the same ratio to movement like it does on a real Tempest. And people have stated that while the trackball plays fine for Centipede, the physical hardware itself may need some manual adjustment and may not be as tweaked for all the games across the board (Missile Command, Crystal Castles, Quantum) etc.. or whatever.

 

But that's just it.. the majority of us haven't had a chance to even see for ourselves yet. As always, I'm reserving final judgement until I get my hands on one. I may end up thinking the spinner games play fine enough. Or I may not! Ditto for the Centipede.

 

But yeah, I'm definitely getting the SI one because it adds to the collection.

This is pretty much exactly where I'm at. (except substitute Pac-Man for Space Invaders)

 

but the thing I'm really concerned with is the size. These things are tiny. Like, ridiculously so. I have to see and feel how one plays in real life, on a riser. The original height of these is useless to me. If I'm going to sit down while gaming, I'm just going to use MAME on my big ass TV from my couch with a PS3 arcade stick controller, not crouched on a crappy stool with my knees getting in the way.