AVGCART

[a8isa1]

@tmp and @flashjazzcat

 

It has been mentioned that SIDE 2 emulation requires a .CAR with a special cartridge type.   Does the ROM image, s2sdx3.car, conform to a cartridge type or ROM image with a banking scheme that SDXImageUser can recognize. If so, which type of cartridge is it?

 

I wish to add/change files on the image and I would also like to edit CONFIG.SYS.  

 

Regards,

 

-SteveS

 

I wish to add/change files contained on the cartridge and I would also like to edit CONFIG.SYS.

[_The Doctor__]

32 minutes ago, a8isa1 said:

@tmp and @flashjazzcat

 

It has been mentioned that SIDE 2 emulation requires a .CAR with a special cartridge type.   Does the ROM image, s2sdx3.car, conform to a cartridge type or ROM image with a banking scheme that SDXImageUser can recognize. If so, which type of cartridge is it?

 

I wish to add/change files on the image and I would also like to edit CONFIG.SYS.  

 

Regards,

 

-SteveS

 

I wish to add/change files contained on the cartridge and I would also like to edit CONFIG.SYS.

I thought it was the same cartridge type as usual and just named side2spartadosx3.car to indicate that it has pre-configured for our purposes. You can take the SDX user imager and put what you want there. You can use other sdx images as well, but you have to make sure what you wish to use is in it, IDE stuff etc. Just choose the sdx that is the best fit and then add what you need in the user area. I picked stuff from the SIDE offering and SuperSpartaCart from the SDX projects download choices, and snagged some stuff from FJC's goodies as well. It all worked out well enough when I last did so.

Edited August 12, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[a8isa1]

I tried the ROMs from SDX distribution that were similar sized 262k (ish).   SDXImageUser accepted those ROMs but they don't work if use the aforementioned header.   I haven't any tools to add a .CAR header to a raw SIDE 2 ROM image.  I also don't know if such an image needs modification to work in AVGCart.

 

-SteveS

[_The Doctor__]

I used a drag and drop .car solution... I think it's from JAC

http://www.wudsn.com/index.php/productions-atari800/tools/thecartstudio

it might have been rom to car... I don't rightly remember but....

https://github.com/robinhedwards/UltimateCart/blob/master/RomToCar.html

sticks in my head and some others

 

anyway there's a few of these online, local html, or part of cartridge studio suites etc to get the job done.

http://www.wudsn.com/index.php/productions-atari800/tools

 

https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/avg/

check out the side/side2 and apt toolkit sections while your there as well.

Edited August 12, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[Mclaneinc]

1 hour ago, Mclaneinc said:

Hi tmp, having issues with ABUSE both ATR and ATX, tried various with U1MB set to OSB, I only have Altirra Basic or Basic C but surely one would be ok... It feels like its not getting BASIC??

 

Same image works on Altirra..

 

Sample file used

 

Abuse v2.9 (1981)(Don't Ask Software)(US)[!][BASIC][OS-B]

 

Edit: Also tested Color Print which I picked because it needed Basic and sure enough, it was going to dos saying only type one letter which is what happens if Basic isn't enabled..its an ATX, I thought just pressing fire or return would be right, no need to hold Option to disable basic..

 

I had presumed that if I set the U1MB to OSB and rev c basic that it would pick it up but it seems to just give you an OSB system and like Altirra you have to bolt on a Basic cart as there's no internal basic, so I set it back to an XL and went the translator route and got them in the same dir and did the disk swap and it worked.. (for Abuse that is)

 

Is that normal that a U1mb set to an OSB rom will not pick up a basic cart?

 

Oh well, translator it is then..PS, can you specify where you can copy a file to with the AVG copy command, having to have both files in the same dir is a bit of a pain...Not moaning though...Just having certain situations where both files spread across a collection must be together or you can't tab them as a multi selection is a bit awkward..

[tmp]

4 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

 

I had presumed that if I set the U1MB to OSB and rev c basic that it would pick it up but it seems to just give you an OSB system and like Altirra you have to bolt on a Basic cart as there's no internal basic, so I set it back to an XL and went the translator route and got them in the same dir and did the disk swap and it worked.. (for Abuse that is)

 

Is that normal that a U1mb set to an OSB rom will not pick up a basic cart?

 

Oh well, translator it is then..PS, can you specify where you can copy a file to with the AVG copy command, having to have both files in the same dir is a bit of a pain...Not moaning though...Just having certain situations where both files spread across a collection must be together or you can't tab them as a multi selection is a bit awkward..

i'm unable to test this (no u1mb) but if u1mb doesn't provide basic when osb is selected, you can try to load basic car from within avgcart (set atr to d1 and launch basic car), no idea whether that helps

[Mclaneinc]

It all helps tmp...Give's me an alternative route to try,...Thank you

[flashjazzcat]

Quote

I tried the ROMs from SDX distribution that were similar sized 262k (ish).   SDXImageUser accepted those ROMs but they don't work if use the aforementioned header.   I haven't any tools to add a .CAR header to a raw SIDE 2 ROM image.  I also don't know if such an image needs modification to work in AVGCart.

Take SDX out of the image hosted here using a hex editor (e.g. HxD), modify it using the SDX Imaging tool, and put it back into the ROM using the hex editor. The SDX image is 256K in size and appears 16 bytes into the CAR file. The two SIDE2 ROMs for AVG are completely identical aside from the CAR type in the header (both images contain SDX in the first 256K and the SIDE Loader in the second 256K). AFAIK, type $A3 (s2sdx3.car) emulates SIDE2 in 'SDX' mode, while type $A2 (s2loader3.car) emulates SIDE2 in 'Loader' mode.

11 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

Is that normal that a U1mb set to an OSB rom will not pick up a basic cart?

There was no internal BASIC in any 400/800, so yes: it's perfectly normal for no Internal BASIC to exist with OS-B, since the OS cannot implement internal BASIC (PORTB was a controller input on the 400/800, so there is no way to manage an internal BASIC ROM for a start). The only reason Incognito provides an 'internal BASIC' in Colleen mode is that it implements same as an external 8K cartridge (a side-effect of this is that the Incognito SIDE loader has no way of disabling this Colleen mode BASIC).

Edited August 12, 2021 by flashjazzcat

[tmp]

48 minutes ago, a8isa1 said:

I tried the ROMs from SDX distribution that were similar sized 262k (ish).   SDXImageUser accepted those ROMs but they don't work if use the aforementioned header.   I haven't any tools to add a .CAR header to a raw SIDE 2 ROM image.  I also don't know if such an image needs modification to work in AVGCart.

 

-SteveS

i believe side2 builds should work, you can transplant the header from the CAR files you have

 

head -c16 s2sdx3.car > header.bin
cat header.bin editedside2.rom > editedside2.car

 

EDIT: nevermind, i totally forgot that side2 car has both sdx and side loader rom, i haven't touched that stuff for ages, so you'd need to split/combine that as well

Edited August 12, 2021 by tmp

[Mclaneinc]

6 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

There was no internal BASIC in any 400/800, so yes: it's perfectly normal for no Internal BASIC to exist with OS-B, since the OS cannot implement internal BASIC (PORTB was a controller input on the 400/800, so there is no way to manage an internal BASIC ROM for a start). The only reason Incognito provides an 'internal BASIC' in Colleen mode is that it implements same as an external 8K cartridge (a side-effect of this is that the Incognito SIDE loader has no way of disabling this Colleen mode BASIC).

I kind of expected this answer because of the Altirra situation and the way it loads a basic up as a special cart for the 400 / 800 series. I just hoped that the super coder you are had a way around it

 

Ney mind good sir, sometimes we ask one thing too much from you guys

Edited August 12, 2021 by Mclaneinc

[tmp]

2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

is that to say all of the 0021 links are now updated with pdm player oops corrected version?

i tried

[flashjazzcat]

3 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

I kind of expected this answer because of the Altirra situation and the way it loads a basic up as a special cart for the 400 / 800 series. I just hoped that the super coder you are had a way around it

 

Ney mind good sir, sometimes we ask one thing too much from you guys

It's not really a question of good programming or otherwise: OS-A/B simply have no awareness of internal BASIC because it didn't exist when they were written. These operating systems do not even support PBI devices, either, so there is no possibilty to 'intercept' anything (perhaps by reconfiguring PORTB as an output and banking BASIC in). The only way around this would be to make a patched version of the OS which manages internal BASIC, but if you're using a multicart which can implement BASIC as an external 8K cart anyway, there isn't really much point.

[Mclaneinc]

29 minutes ago, tmp said:

i'm unable to test this (no u1mb) but if u1mb doesn't provide basic when osb is selected, you can try to load basic car from within avgcart (set atr to d1 and launch basic car), no idea whether that helps

This works with ATR's, with ATX it starts a chain of boot errors, but as there's very few items that are not on ATR's then I set the Basic as a shortcut and tabbed the atr. worked fine..Thank you..

Edited August 12, 2021 by Mclaneinc

[tmp]

18 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

This works with ATR's, with ATX it starts a chain of boot errors

weird, i'll have to look into that

[_The Doctor__]

nothing is set in a fashion to interfere with the timing sensitive nature of the ATX in the bios correct?

did you try the ATX on a bog standard machine?

[a8isa1]

7 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

Hi tmp, having issues with ABUSE both ATR and ATX, tried various with U1MB set to OSB, I only have Altirra Basic or Basic C but surely one would be ok... It feels like its not getting BASIC??

 

Same image works on Altirra..

 

Sample file used

 

Abuse v2.9 (1981)(Don't Ask Software)(US)[!][BASIC][OS-B]

 

Edit: Also tested Color Print which I picked because it needed Basic and sure enough, it was going to dos saying only type one letter which is what happens if Basic isn't enabled..its an ATX, I thought just pressing fire or return would be right, no need to hold Option to disable basic..

I got the above ATR to work on my NTSC 800XL.   My OS options are limited to four.  Omniview 256 XE is the closest thing I have to OS-B on this machine and it was close enough.

 

Abuse program runs with Atari BASICs Rev A or C and also Altirra BASIC on AVGCart.   Also with built-in Atari BASIC (is this Rev B or Rev C?).  Omniview has reversed OPTION key function.   The ATR is on AVGCart's SD card.  Access was done via the SIO cable to AVGCart.

 

I didn't try a Translator disk.

 

I didn't try the ATX either.

 

-SteveS

[a8isa1]

I was able to load the ATX version of "Abuse" to load using Translator B.

 

Use this procedure:

 

- place game and Translator in the same folder on AVGCart's SD card

- Atari BASIC can be put in any folder but you must set a shortcut for it. Shortcuts are permanently retained, that is until you clear them or change them.  Navigate to Atari BASIC.  Press CONTROL + # (where # is numeral 1 through 9)

- Navigate to the Translator ATR.  Press TAB.  You will see the numeral '1' appear meaning the first disk has been added in your disk set.

- Navigate to your game (which must be in the same folder).  Press TAB to add this disk to your set.  The numberal '2' will appear.

- Press the numeral which you earlier assigned as your shortcut key for Atari BASIC.   The first disk in your set, the Translator, will load.

- Translator will instruct you to press SELECT when you are ready to boot your disk.    At this point I believe the Atari would normally load the game but we instead are brought back to the AVGCart menu.  If you had added the game lastly to your set then that ATX/ATR will be selected again.   Just press RETURN and the game will now load.   If the game is not selected then navigate to it again and then press RETURN.

 

That's it.

 

Regards,

 

SteveS

Edited August 13, 2021 by a8isa1

[Mclaneinc]

Hi folks, yes tried the various shortcut methods, all work very well, my initial silly mistake was forgetting that BASIC does not exist internally on a 400 / 800, so I was expecting the U1MB and the AVG to do miracles, oops, my bad as they say.

 

The only mild anomaly I've found and tested a few times is that a shortcut of a BASIC cart and an ATX set with a tab just causes boot errors, yet the same ATX without the car shortcut works fine. Now this is ok if its an XL compatible game, but if its under an OSB rom its a no go here.. I don't have a working 800 to hardware test it on, the way I was doing it was under the U1mb and selecting an OSB os (which is handy for Non basic programs as it saves hunting out the Translator)

 

Its up to tmp if he wants to research why the cart shortcut bombs on ATX but is fine on ATR..

 

Tried a few ATXs, all did the same.. It feels like the way it deals with ATX files make the car shortcut act like an unknown disk, hence the boot errors

[tmp]

yes, there is probably a bug, there might be a workaround but it's silly so i'll just fix it in some future release, sorry for that

[Mclaneinc]

No probs tmp, It's a tiny thing and with almost everything on Atr as well it does not affect so much, I can only see 800 owners who want to boot a basic with the AVG in who also want to run a ATX for some reason, I don't have a running 800 to test that so someone with one could do a test if they want. Same if its one of those rare (very very) rare titles that wants Basic A (are there even titles that need it???)..

 

If you ever need a tester then you know who to call (Ghostbusters?)

 

PS, it's me who is sorry for bugging you with silly little stuff... AVG & U1mb, my favourite combo on the Atari.. Thank you!

Edited August 13, 2021 by Mclaneinc

[a8isa1]

4 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

Hi folks, yes tried the various shortcut methods, all work very well, my initial silly mistake was forgetting that BASIC does not exist internally on a 400 / 800, so I was expecting the U1MB and the AVG to do miracles, oops, my bad as they say.

 

The only mild anomaly I've found and tested a few times is that a shortcut of a BASIC cart and an ATX set with a tab just causes boot errors, yet the same ATX without the car shortcut works fine. Now this is ok if its an XL compatible game, but if its under an OSB rom its a no go here.. I don't have a working 800 to hardware test it on, the way I was doing it was under the U1mb and selecting an OSB os (which is handy for Non basic programs as it saves hunting out the Translator)

 

Its up to tmp if he wants to research why the cart shortcut bombs on ATX but is fine on ATR..

 

Tried a few ATXs, all did the same.. It feels like the way it deals with ATX files make the car shortcut act like an unknown disk, hence the boot errors

I have the same issue will a real 800.  ATX will not boot, quick *raspberries* or very slow sounds, I/O retries I assume..

 

ATRs do load but with some retries along the way.

 

I did a quick comparison with an Atari BASIC (rev A) cartridge and SIO2PC (fujinet-pc software).  Similar results.  ATX has never loaded (on the 800)

 

@Mclaneinc

 

Try Omniview 256 XE OS.  I was able load both "Abuse* ATXes (Don't Ask Software version being the second one) on my 800XL with this OS.  Either ATX load most of the time but with I/O retries along the way.   I do not recall them ever loading cleaning the way the cracked ATRs do.

 

I can't try it myself (because I don't have a flash ROM for my OSes) but I'm curious about Oldrunner OS

 

 

Good luck!

 

Regards,

 

-SteveS

 

[Mclaneinc]

Thanks for the confirmation, Steve.

 

Tried a few Atrs but did not see and retries, but I have to be honest, it was only a few titles, could be luck there..

 

I've tried Oldrunner and Omniview (I think) with Altirra but I worried about titles doing OS checks looking for things like Omnimon or specialist OS's so went back to known exact dumps of real OS just to be 100%. I also don't want to test stuff as OK for say a gamebase to find that it does not work on real OS's. If it does not work on an out of the box machine then there's something wrong, I check also with a U1MB in case there's a title like Bruce Lee was that did not work with it.

 

Cheers Paul..

[Faicuai]

3 hours ago, a8isa1 said:

I have the same issue will a real 800.  ATX will not boot, quick *raspberries* or very slow sounds, I/O retries I assume..

Yes, with AVG cart set to shortcut-ROM (e.g. Basic revC) and attempting to boot .ATX from the cart or via RespeQt, there will only be SIO polling and cart will start without OS booting any external package.

 

However, plug an ACTUAL Basic revC cart on left port (or Incognito's own flash-slot Basic via BIOS), and the story is quite different: .ATX will start booting (tried with APX educational titles). OS tested were OEM OS/b, OS/b + Newell FP, OS/n and Altirra 3.31)

 

All of the above tested on the 800 / Incognito (where we can "virtualize" Colleen and XL/XE environments independently, with any choice of OS and carts).

 

In short, this booting sequence / combo involving .ATX images seems inoperable with AVG and Colleen environment.

[Faicuai]

@tmp

 

Another issue I noticed with AVG selector:

 

1. Shortcut any bootable (DOS) .ATR of choice.

2. Mount any other .ATR and assign SIO-slot #2 (so both .ATR could be accessed later)

3. Press shortcut for #1 above: BOOT FAILURE (system lands on Memopad or Self-Test rom).

 

Tested on reference 800 CTIA, and 800 / Incognito in both XL/XE and Colleen modes.

[tmp]

now when you brought respeqt into the picture, i'm officially lost

 

if you try to boot atx via respeqt (not via avg), it doesn't work even when avgcart only emulates basic cart (and works with a real basic cart)?