empsolo Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Nonsense. It's a perfectly legitimate response to the situation. I don't so much care about someone's random ability to play a given game via ROM as I am with something much more important: preservation. A lot of these games wouldn't even exist anymore (particularly super rare carts, obscure arcade titles etc) if it were not for the efforts of people programming emulators, dumping and preserving ROMs, and all of that. It looks like Nintendo even downloaded their own games from a couple of ROM sites before dropping the hammer. Because, you know, they didn't bother to preserve them. Is it within the rights of the copyright holder to do what Nintendo did? Yes. Is it right? No. It's tone deaf, selfish, and ultimately harmful to the long term preservation of digital history. It's not about us wanting to play games. It's about people being able to see them 75 years from now. It's just like the movies. Whole swaths of known films from the 20s, 30s and 40s don't exist because no one preserved them. Gonna be the same deal here. Why do people pretend that the film industry never preserved older movies? They did. It's just that they kept them all in one central location that ended up catching fire due to the fact that older film reels were made up of a highly flammable substance. That's why most silent movies are gone. Also,there is Zero fucking evidence outside of that Super Mario Bros ROM that Nintendo doesn't archive their own games? How the fuck do you think Sky Skipper, of all games, is on the E-shop? Magic? As explained earlier, it's highly likely that an employee simply looked to the internet for a ROM instead of taking the time to rip a ROM from a cartridge since the early Wii VC was contracted out to a third party initially. Especially since there has been zero evidence of any rom since showing that it was downloaded from the internet. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icemanxp300 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Also,there is Zero fucking evidence outside of that Super Mario Bros ROM that Nintendo doesn't archive their own games? As explained earlier, it's highly likely that an employee simply looked to the internet for a ROM instead of taking the time to rip a ROM from a cartridge Not helping your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 It's about people being able to see them 75 years from now. I'm not entirely sure why this is a humorous concept. Can you enlighten me? I personally watch film and television that's 75 years old. Most of the creators of these works have long since passed on, yet here I am decades later, still able to enjoy and appreciate it. I don't see how gaming should (or will) be any different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empsolo Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Not helping your argument. It does since no other rom in the catalog on the wii, wii u, or 3ds virtual console shows a ripped header. Are we really going to believe that Nintendo doesn't have a copy of Super Mario Bros over Sky Skipper and VS Urban Champion? Really? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icemanxp300 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 If they have to dump a cart 30 years later then they didn't archive anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empsolo Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 If they have to dump a cart 30 years later then they didn't archive anything! So I guess you believe that VS Urban Champion and Sky Skipper appeared out of the aether then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icemanxp300 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 So I guess you believe that VS Urban Champion and Sky Skipper appeared out of the aether then? That doesn't matter, you contradicted yourself. You literally just said this! As explained earlier, it's highly likely that an employee simply looked to the internet for a ROM instead of taking the time to rip a ROM from a cartridge Don't argue they archived their work and then in the SAME paragraph say they should have dumped a cart. NO they should have had the data already archived and not needed to download the rom OR dump a cart. Is it clicking yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empsolo Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 That doesn't matter, you contradicted yourself. You literally just said this! Don't argue they archived their work and then in the SAME paragraph say they should have dumped a cart. NO they should have had the data already archived and not needed to download the rom OR dump a cart. Is it clicking yet? This is typical of the pirate position, when an argument has been soundly defeated, simply move the goalposts and change the conditions of victory. We already know by the fact that other 500 some odd ROMS on the Wii, Wii-u, and 3DS virtual console library as well as the SNES and NES classic come from a ripped cartridge. This means that Nintendo at the very least has a large catalog of physical games in their back vaults. We also know that Nintendo has collections of some rather rare games that they have recently put on the eshop. Therefore it stands to reason that Nintendo has a large collection of games they have well preserved in their physical forms. Therefore to accuse Nintendo of not preserving Super Mario Bros simply because of the fact that they had not digitally archived it in 2006 when the service went live, is an argument that is quite frankly absurd and insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icemanxp300 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 This is typical of the pirate position, when an argument has been soundly defeated WOW I am not saying Nintendo doesn't have archives, because you know what I don't have a clue what they have. All I am saying is don't say they should dump a cart if you are arguing they have archives of everything. Damn dude, reading comprehension is your friend. Therefore it stands to reason that Nintendo has a large collection of games they have well preserved in their physical forms. It appears your idea of archives is an actual cartridge and why we are having this stupid discussion. To me and I would say most everyone else archiving these games means a bit more than having a 30 year old cart that the data is slowly fading away in. We have already stated these games are failing so just having a cart from 30 years ago is not what we consider preserving the game. When I say archive I mean they have the original data archived before it went to cartridge form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empsolo Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) WOW I am not saying Nintendo doesn't have archives, because you know what I don't have a clue what they have. All I am saying is don't say they should dump a cart if you are arguing they have archives of everything. Damn dude, reading comprehension is your friend.The argument here is over preservation and meaning of preservation. There is more to preservation that simply just dumping a cartridge onto a digital server. This ignores the ability to physically preserve media. It appears your idea of archives is an actual cartridge and why we are having this stupid discussion. To me and I would say most everyone else archiving these games means a bit more than having a 30 year old cart that the data is slowly fading away in. We have already stated these games are failing so just having a cart from 30 years ago is not what we consider preserving the game. When I say archive I mean they have the original data archived before it went to cartridge form. This definition is absurd because it ignores that one can fix, repair, replace, or whatever to preserve these cartridges in their original and intended format. We know Nintendo does work hard to keep their older games in tip top condition that they have, judging by the fact NOA employees have kept the world's only remaining Sky Skipper Cabinet in tip top condition. Therefore, again, the statement that Nintendo does not preserve their games is quite farcical and irrational. Edited August 16, 2018 by empsolo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
English Invader Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) these aren't classical works of art. They are mass produced consumer items - toys, no less. Preserving the original source code, or the original case artwork would be equivalent. Making unauthorized exact copies and distributing them without permission is not preservation. If preservation is the goal, they should be on display at the Smithsonian, not backed up on your usb drive. Dickens and Shakespeare weren't considered "classical works of art" when they were current, they were a means of entertainment. People went to the Globe Theatre to see the latest Shakespeare play just like they anxiously awaited the latest instalment of Martin Chuzzlewit or bought Minnie the Moocher or Over the Rainbow. People made money from these things in the early 1600s just as they do today. And these things aren't confined to a museum. They are freely available to stream or download from a number of sources. You can help yourself to a USB drive of 78 recordings and classical audiobooks any time you want: http://great78.archive.org/ https://librivox.org/ Edited August 16, 2018 by English Invader 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Ragan Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 And just think, Albert banned religion and political talk here because he thought they would start nasty arguments! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltigro Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but it appears isozone has taken theirs down, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I'm not entirely sure why this is a humorous concept. Can you enlighten me? I personally watch film and television that's 75 years old. Most of the creators of these works have long since passed on, yet here I am decades later, still able to enjoy and appreciate it. I don't see how gaming should (or will) be any different. its simple really. Original rights holders, or ACTUAL historians preserving entertainment history is NOT the same thing as a few thousand pirates on the internet illegally sharing copies of stolen material. I'm laughing because a bunch of people have convinced themselves they are "treasure protectors" because they have a few thousand illegal roms in their computer. Because it's Hi-larious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 And just think, Albert banned religion and political talk here because he thought they would start nasty arguments!this isn't nasty. It's just a case of factual information butting up against wishful thinking and fictional storytelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMenard Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 this isn't nasty. It's just a case of factual information butting up against wishful thinking and fictional storytelling. You're borderline trolling now... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 You're borderline trolling now... Having an opinion and stating it is not trolling. I'm not insulting anyone. I'm stating facts. I'm not playing internet lawyer, or making claims about copyright laws I can't substantiate with settled law. Just because someone may not agree with your understanding of a given subject doesn't make them a troll. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 its simple really. Original rights holders, or ACTUAL historians preserving entertainment history is NOT the same thing as a few thousand pirates on the internet illegally sharing copies of stolen material. I'm laughing because a bunch of people have convinced themselves they are "treasure protectors" because they have a few thousand illegal roms in their computer. Because it's Hi-larious. Somebody dumped the rom, somebody created the emulator, they helped preserve this stuff. They weren't historians and they weren't the copyright owners. Copyright owners benefitted from this work. The illegal pirate sites help people play these games that in many cases can't be legitimately sourced reasonably if at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) I don't mind if copyrights last forever. Really, I don't. If Disney & Nintendo want to keep Steamboat Willie & Super Mario Bros locked away till doomsday, I'm ok with that. Their property; their right. I do believe we need some way to legally deal with abandoned intellectual property. There are already laws dealing with abandoned real & personal property in most regions. In that regard the US's older copyright laws were better; if no one renewed the copyright after 28 years the work passed into the public domain. Well they used to have a way to deal with that.. require copyright renewals! If you fail to renew it goes public domain. These big companies have the resources to deal with the paperwork for that every 14 years. They already need to deal with reregistering their Trademarks, and their internet domains and lots of other things more frequently than that. I have no problem with Disney or Nintendo extending their copyright indefinitely either. What I do have a problem with is their individual needs dictating the copyright periods for everything. Edited August 16, 2018 by zzip 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Dickens and Shakespeare weren't considered "classical works of art" when they were current, they were a means of entertainment. People went to the Globe Theatre to see the latest Shakespeare play just like they anxiously awaited the latest instalment of Martin Chuzzlewit or bought Minnie the Moocher or Over the Rainbow. People made money from these things in the early 1600s just as they do today. And these things aren't confined to a museum. They are freely available to stream or download from a number of sources. You can help yourself to a USB drive of 78 recordings and classical audiobooks any time you want: http://great78.archive.org/ https://librivox.org/ No one here is arguing that public domain properties exist. But with regard to video games, the vast majority of them are not public domain. When (IF) they become public domain, the same thing will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) I'm not entirely sure why this is a humorous concept. Can you enlighten me? I personally watch film and television that's 75 years old. Most of the creators of these works have long since passed on, yet here I am decades later, still able to enjoy and appreciate it. I don't see how gaming should (or will) be any different. Snow White and the Wizard of Oz immediately come to mind... Edited August 16, 2018 by zzip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Here's the deal.. . I have bought quite a few emulation packages over the years - Namco Museum for PS1 (all 5,) Williams Arcade Classics (PC and PS1,) Arcade's Greatest hits (both PS1 volumes,) Arcade Party Pack (PS1,) Atari's package for android (Good emulation, terrible controls, I spent $10 for the whole set,) One of the Sonic sets for the Gamecube, and so on (there are more I can't remember) But there are many MANY other games that the big companies don't want to release for one reason or another. Why did none of the compilations have games like Food Fight, Quantum, Kangaroo, Star Rider, Turkey Shoot, Reactor, etc. etc. etc. Everyone has a list of games that they are willing and able to pay for. Until these games are made available, what do we do? What if they're NEVER made available? It's not like those of use who want these games want to freeload. Rifftrax has a thing where if you downloaded one of their products for free from other sources, they won't prosecute you, but will let you know that they worked hard on the product, and allow you to make it right by paying for it. Why don't companies like Nintendo, Namco, and so on do this? I think it'd engender good will in the emulation community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) Somebody dumped the rom, somebody created the emulator, they helped preserve this stuff. They weren't historians and they weren't the copyright owners. Copyright owners benefitted from this work. The illegal pirate sites help people play these games that in many cases can't be legitimately sourced reasonably if at all. The highlighted part here ^ Completely True, Fact. Somebody dumped the rom, somebody created the emulator, they helped preserve this stuff. They weren't historians and they weren't the copyright owners. Copyright owners benefitted from this work. The illegal pirate sites help people play these games that in many cases can't be legitimately sourced reasonably if at all. The highlighted part here ^ is not entirely accurate. A very small number of copyright owners have benefited from romsites in the case of video games in isolated cases - this is not the norm. The greater majority have not benefited, and in fact rom dumping and sharing has made it difficult to continue protecting their IP. Somebody dumped the rom, somebody created the emulator, they helped preserve this stuff. They weren't historians and they weren't the copyright owners. Copyright owners benefitted from this work. The illegal pirate sites help people play these games that in many cases can't be legitimately sourced reasonably if at all. The highlighted part here is false excuse making. Unless you're talking about people playing super rare games like Stadium Events, the overwhelming majority of these games can easily be sourced through the secondary market on ebay/Amazon/local retro shops, etc. They just might come with a price tag most people aren't willing to pay - so then people pirate them. Not because of availability, but because of price. And I don't disagree with them. I'm not paying ridiculous eBay prices for certain games either. But that doesn't make it legal, or "ok". It's still illegal. Edited August 16, 2018 by John Stamos Mullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 You're borderline trolling now... Not even borderline. He admitted he has no desire to find a middle ground solution to this. He's just beating up on strawmen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) The highlighted part here ^ Completely True, Fact. The highlighted part here ^ is not entirely accurate. A very small number of copyright owners have benefited from romsites in the case of video games in isolated cases - this is not the norm. The greater majority have not benefited, and in fact rom dumping and sharing has made it difficult to continue protecting their IP. The highlighted part here is false excuse making. Unless you're talking about people playing super rare games like Stadium Events, the overwhelming majority of these games can easily be sourced through the secondary market on ebay/Amazon/local retro shops, etc. They just might come with a price tag most people aren't willing to pay - so then people pirate them. Not because of availability, but because of price. And I don't disagree with them. I'm not paying ridiculous eBay prices for certain games either. But that doesn't make it legal, or "ok". It's still illegal. You don't think nintendo and others looked at the freely and shared source code of others before making their own emulator. You make a fair point, that the illegal sharing may have made it more difficult for rights owners to license their games to others. That doesn't apply to nintendo and it doesn't seem to bother atari. That high price tag is part of what can be considered fair use or fair dealings in copyright law. These are limitations and exemptions that can make having copyrighted works without permission legal. Even having to deal with antiquated equipment can support fair use or fair dealing. Personal use and effect on the market are more reasons that support the case. Edited August 16, 2018 by mr_me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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