Hannacek Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I truly believe there is an audience for this console. The volume of sales for the SGM, the level of interest we've seen on the Facebook pages and on this forum show that people are still interested in ColecoVision. I just think it might be a little too niche for the required amount of people to be able to fund it in a Kickstarter amount of time. There is a difference between the 263 current backers from several weeks of a Kickstarter campaign, and the many years the SGM has been on sale to reach its numbers. The Phoenix could sell as many units as the SGM did, but it can't be expected to do that in 30 or 60 or even 90 days. Another issue is how many people who bought a SGM are still active in ColecoVision? How many of them came into the hobby at some point over the years, bought a SGM, and are no longer active? There may not be 1,000 people interested in ColecoVision to buy a new FPGA console. You may need to take the current active user base and wait for new people to get into ColecoVision, to reach 1,000 unit sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixelboy Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 There is a difference between the 263 current backers from several weeks of a Kickstarter campaign, and the many years the SGM has been on sale to reach its numbers. The Phoenix could sell as many units as the SGM did, but it can't be expected to do that in 30 or 60 or even 90 days. Let's not forget that many CV fans bought a couple of SGMs, one for use and one for backup, so even if 1000 SGMs were sold worldwide, it doesn't translate to 1000 users. Another issue is how many people who bought a SGM are still active in ColecoVision? How many of them came into the hobby at some point over the years, bought a SGM, and are no longer active? There may not be 1,000 people interested in ColecoVision to buy a new FPGA console. You may need to take the current active user base and wait for new people to get into ColecoVision, to reach 1,000 unit sales. Right. In additional to that, many have perfectly functional ColecoVisions with their SGMs, and may not be immediately interested in the Phoenix. But when their ColecoVisions start acting up (and you know it's going to happen) then the Phoenix may become more interesting to them. But to score those sales, CollectorVision has to stick around and keep the unit available for purchase. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmack36 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 On a different note: I was able to meet Jannell Jaquays Director of Game Design at Coleco 1980-1985 at PRGE. She provided us this quote: I had a chance to see the Collectorvision in operation at the Portland Retro Game Expo and be able to “look under the hood” at the PC board and circuitry. This is the real deal. A modern console that plays Colecovision cartridges and more. I’m excited about the prospect of playing my original Colecovision cartridges on my big screen televisions. – Jennell Jaquays, Director of Game Design at Coleco, 1980-1985 for the original Colecovision and ADAM computer. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannacek Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) On a different note: I was able to meet Jannell Jaquays Director of Game Design at Coleco 1980-1985 at PRGE. She provided us this quote: I had a chance to see the Collectorvision in operation at the Portland Retro Game Expo and be able to “look under the hood” at the PC board and circuitry. This is the real deal. A modern console that plays Colecovision cartridges and more. I’m excited about the prospect of playing my original Colecovision cartridges on my big screen televisions. – Jennell Jaquays, Director of Game Design at Coleco, 1980-1985 for the original Colecovision and ADAM computer. I feel like a professional looking kickstarter video with interviews and quotes like that would have helped. I am the first to criticize kickstarters for wasting money on a flashy video that promises more than it could deliver. But, CollectorVision has a good reputation for homebrew games. It reflects negatively on them that they didn't spend any money on a campaign video. Having a flashy video with a few corny jokes is what people expect for a kickstarter campaign, and having a video that cost nothing to produce makes it seem like CollectorVision is not ready for prime time. Edited October 24, 2018 by Hannacek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoJoe Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I feel like a professional looking kickstarter video with interviews and quotes like that would have helped. I am the first to criticize kickstarters for wasting money on a flashy video that promises more than it could deliver. But, CollectorVision has a good reputation for homebrew games. It reflects negatively on them that they didn't spend any money on a campaign video. Having a flashy video with a few corny jokes is what people expect for a kickstarter campaign, and having a video that cost nothing to produce makes it seem like CollectorVision is not ready for prime time. I had no problems with the quality of the video in-fact I appreciate its simplicity because it gave the project a realness I felt it needed to get away from the past stigma this project is shadowed over. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swami Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 As you can see from Brian's very detailed evolution of the Phoenix over the past couple years on the Kickstarter page, there has been time to test all the CV games (legacy and homebrew), but to what extent I can not answer. The important thing to consider is at the heart of it, the Phoenix is a new CV compatible system made by hardcore CV fans for CV fans. Knowing the people behind the scenes as I do , I have complete faith in their dedication to making the CV core 100% compatible or as close as possible to that magic number. I also have complete faith that if any compatibility issues do arise, the right people are in place to address them and provide fixes/updates. As far as other cores like the 2600 and MSX, I can not attest to especially with considering the large libraries of warez for those systems, but again I believe 100% in the developers and their dedication to the Phoenix. Whatever transpires with the Kickstarter, I will be purchasing one or more Phoenixes. I hope it's the Kickstarter version, but will be perfectly content with the "Early Access" version. Considering everything you get with the system, we are talking about a $600 value if you place a $50 value on the Sydney Hunter CoD game and roughly $10 each for the included rom images of 10 outstanding CV Homebrews. 2600 comptibility is just the icing on an already delicious cake. Additional cores and expansion modules made available in the future would be the cherries on top. I honestly have not looked at or compared other FPGA systems and honestly do not care to because the Phoenix in it's announced configuration is the "cat's meow" to me! I bought an early bird system, as well, and am considering a second, so I'm sold on it at $300, as well. I was just genuinely curious how long it took for them to say some 350 games are compatible. I'm guessing the "games people care about" number for the 2600 is somewhere around 800-900, although I may be including some of the duplicate versions and I don't know if anyone would include hacks, but maybe some blah, blah, blah and not every compatibility issue takes the same amount of time and blah, blah, blah. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) Very true. Perfect FPGA cores don't just happen, and even Kevtris himself had to issue core revisions (in the NT Mini and Super NT) to deal with some minor problems that were being reported by users. The question is, at this point, is what level of commitment can be expected from the CollectorVision team regarding core updates. I wouldn't simply assume from the get-go that they will be perfectionists (like Kevtris is regarding his own cores). They may go out of their way to make sure all ColecoVision ROMs function properly (the savegame feature in The Black Onyx could be an issue, for example) but are they prepared to support all the quirks of Atari 2600 ROMs in the long term, especially on the homebrew side? Collectively, we should recognize that these guys are only human and we shouldn't hold the bar up too high. The Phoenix is a modern ColecoVision, first and foremost. The rest is gravy. The Black Onyx save game feature might need special consideration as a rom file but should be automatically supported with a real cartridge. With software emulation you always have to emulate all the cartridge hardware, but cartridge based fpga emulation interacts directly with the cartridge; that compatibility is automatic. To support rom files, fpga emulation still has to emulate the cartridge hardware. The same applies to a cartridge based fpga Atari 2600; all cartridge features including homebrews should be supported because it's being used directly on the cartridge. Rom file support is a different matter and could be an issue. With fpga emulation you're essentially analyzing the original hardware logic and duplicating what you see, With software emulation it's far more tricky to recreate that logic and in many cases shortcuts are made, sometimes as a performance tradeoff. Still fpga emulation is still dependent on the accuracy of the source material and things like hidden features or design changes could be missed. Best to work directly off hardware rather than design plans. Kevtris was able to create over a dozen fpga systems, the problems were relatively minor often quickly addressed. Kevtris fpga is closed source but there's lots of people out there sharing their fpga work. I didn't think the phoenix fpga was done from scratch as it's open source as well. The colecovision was built on off-the-shelf ICs commonly used in other systems, the phoenix has an excellent chance to be 100%. The Atari 2600 does have a custom IC. There may be issues but I wouldn't be surprised if the fpga atari 2600 will have excellent cartridge compatibility. Edited October 24, 2018 by mr_me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuggerVideoGames Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 To CollectorVision: If in the end the Kickstarter fails to meet its goal, do not let that deter you from having future plans with the Phoenix. There is an audience/market for it. Kickstarter doesn't give you a lot of time for meeting a certain dollar amount for a system that clearly didn't have the following of the NES and others. How could it have such a following when the video game crash happened shortly after Colecovision's peak? How many people still have Colecovision carts? Although you can load ROMs on the SD card slot, there are a number of people who don't have Colecovision carts and that will play a factor into how many people would back this in the early going. I'm sure you're aware that your system is for a niche market, but that market can grow with more time and more exposure. Once the Phoenix gets more coverage and more people - not just those in this community - actually getting their hands on them and playing them, it will grow by word-of-mouth as people begin to realize what you really have here. The time window of a Kickstarter is not the end-all and be-all of existing and potential market. Hopefully, you hit your goals. I wish you the best of luck. If you don't hit it, it's not the end; you just have to make your presence known and let the world see what you have. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannacek Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 The time window of a Kickstarter is not the end-all and be-all of existing and potential market. Hopefully, you hit your goals. I wish you the best of luck. If you don't hit it, it's not the end; you just have to make your presence known and let the world see what you have. There are other funding platforms like indigogo and flexible funding where the project gets funded no matter that it did not reach the goal. There are other options like finding investors or getting a small business loan from a bank. Or they could just sell it in small batches as was the case with the Super Game Module. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIAD Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 See as Opcode has recently hinted at reconsidering his interest in pursuing development of a ColecoVision compatible system (Prometheus Lite) to possibly be released in 2020 or later and focusing all his efforts on the Omni (an all new stand alone system which is not compatible with any existing gane sysyem but sounds cool nonetheless), it might be high time for a lot of fence sitters to more seriously consider backing the Phoenix. I don't see a better option out there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Phruby Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 So does the Phoenix have SGM support? If it does, why do I want to buy Opcode's version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuggerVideoGames Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 So does the Phoenix have SGM support? If it does, why do I want to buy Opcode's version? SGM games do work on the Phoenix. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPR Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I have cleaned up this thread a bit so we can put it back on track. Opinions and legitimate discussion is welcome. Trolling and purposely derailing a discussion is not. Thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_convoy Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 So does the Phoenix have SGM support? If it does, why do I want to buy Opcode's version? It does and there is no Opcode version as of yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoJoe Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I think our passions are getting the best of us. Let's get back to topic and leave all the petty bickering for private messages or a new lets bitch it out thread outside of this thread. This is not helping ColectorVision or the project anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chart45 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Let's not forget that many CV fans bought a couple of SGMs, one for use and one for backup, so even if 1000 SGMs were sold worldwide, it doesn't translate to 1000 users. that's true i have 4... 1 from the first run 2 from the second run and 1 clear case from the last run... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPR Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I think our passions are getting the best of us. Let's get back to topic and leave all the petty bickering for private messages or a new lets bitch it out thread outside of this thread. This is not helping ColectorVision or the project anymore. Agreed. I am trying really hard to clean up this thread and put it back on track, but clearly that's not what other people want. Can we all PLEASE get back to discussing the console and get away from this drama? Thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-TI Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Consider a grass-roots marketing strategy. The demographic base you are targeting does not always consist of people who hang around gamer sites. Consider the age group, plus and minus 8 years from the units original peak sales. These people can have many varied interests, but still have fond memories of a particular game unit when they were younger. Since the entire audience can be larger than practical to cover, consider groups with more discretionary income. Enter conversations (WHERE APPROPRIATE) and mention the product. If you are lucky, it might catch a few more investors, possibly even enough to put you over the top. Good luck. P.S. Where do you start? Sometimes looking for other products from that era, using a GRAPHICS search can help you find pages to target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannacek Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 that's true i have 4... 1 from the first run 2 from the second run and 1 clear case from the last run... Why do you need more than 1? Do you want to collect one of each variation? I have one, and am happy with it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuggerVideoGames Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) One idea I have in mind - although I have no clue how much of an impact it would have - is to have a small handful of the Phoenix systems available to owners of video game stores around the country. If you feel you can trust them to show off the system and let their customers play it in the store, that means more people are getting their hands on it and experiencing it; ergo, word of mouth spreads to other gamers who may have not been familiar with the Colecovision or the CollectorVision Phoenix. New untapped market becomes tapped and more potential customers grow. It's great when somebody like TPR gets their hands on it and does videos and it's great when YouTubers meet you at an expo and do videos about it, but the strongest selling point will be everyday people actually experiencing it for themselves and deciding, "That was cool. I want this now." Edit: I also think this is something that would interest such shop owners, as increased interest in a system like this means increased interest in old video game carts that they might otherwise have had difficulty selling. Edited October 24, 2018 by DuggerVideoGames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chart45 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Why do you need more than 1? Do you want to collect one of each variation? I have one, and am happy with it. i bought the first one on ebay when opcode was mia and already preoder2 from the second run.. the last one i bought its for the new lable and the new box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmack36 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 Just to be clear on a couple of things: -It is perfectly fine to have an issue with the system or bring up potential problems or questions about the system. What I would appreciate though is that if it gets to the point of being a distraction or bickering that it is taken to a different area like DM so that it doesn' t take away from the purpose of this thread. -It would also be good if we could refrain from any personal attacks from anyone. If you have a problem with someone lets keep those discussions in private messages. -I think everyone (myself included) is a little down about where the kickstarter is at the moment, but it is not over yet and there is always a plan B. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannacek Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 i bought the first one on ebay when opcode was mia and already preoder2 from the second run.. the last one i bought its for the new lable and the new box You are a collector, and you wanted to have the different box and manual variations. And the later ones don't use the Coleco logo, because they stopped paying for the licensing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Hierophant Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 You are a collector, and you wanted to have the different box and manual variations. And the later ones don't use the Coleco logo, because they stopped paying for the licensing. I thought the reason that homebrew stopped using the Coleco logo was because Coleco Holdings, LLC was starting to demand people pay for the licensing or were being obnoxious about what kinds of games and products they would allow their logo on and which ones they would not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPR Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Thank you for this post, Brian! Just to be clear on a couple of things: -It is perfectly fine to have an issue with the system or bring up potential problems or questions about the system. What I would appreciate though is that if it gets to the point of being a distraction or bickering that it is taken to a different area like DM so that it doesn' t take away from the purpose of this thread. -It would also be good if we could refrain from any personal attacks from anyone. If you have a problem with someone lets keep those discussions in private messages. -I think everyone (myself included) is a little down about where the kickstarter is at the moment, but it is not over yet and there is always a plan B. While I know at the moment things are not looking great for the Kickstarter, it is still VERY IMPORTANT that everyone pledge if you are interested in this system! And here is why... If the Kickstarter does not fund, as Brian says, there will be a "Plan B" to bring this console to reality. What those plans are may be based on the level of interest shown in the Kickstarter. If at the end of the campaign, CollectorVision knows they have 500 people interested in this console, while that may not be enough to fund the Kickstarter, it may be enough to fund another crowd funding option. By NOT pledging, CollectorVision will not have a good idea of just how many people want this console. So please, if you are interested in the console, pledge in the Kickstater to show your support and level of interest: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1408938247/collectorvision-phoenix-an-fpga-colecovision-conso And let's keep things moving forward with another game demo! This time using a Sega Genesis controller... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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