Why do people actively hate "pre-NES" consoles?

[mbd30]

The complaint is that when you're at that level of precision, every millisecond counts and can mean the difference between a speed run record or eternal shame. Since I have the reflexes and cognitive powers of a drunken sloth, it's never been an issue for me, but I'm sure it's real to the caffeinated spider monkeys who complain about this all. the. time.

 

It's a really efficient way to signal ones trchnical acumen, video gaming skill, and lack of social desirability, with just a single statement.

 

Some games are more affected by lag than others. You can probably adjust to the lag in a game like Super Mario Bros. Games that require split second reaction times such as Punch-Out and Battletoads are the worst with lag.

[AtariLeaf]

The complaint is that when you're at that level of precision, every millisecond counts and can mean the difference between a speed run record or eternal shame. Since I have the reflexes and cognitive powers of a drunken sloth, it's never been an issue for me, but I'm sure it's real to the caffeinated spider monkeys who complain about this all. the. time.

 

It's a really efficient way to signal ones trchnical acumen, video gaming skill, and lack of social desirability, with just a single statement.

 

Unfortunately, I'm just one of those luddites who likes to play old video games for fun.

[TheCoolDave]

 

Some games are more affected by lag than others. You can probably adjust to the lag in a game like Super Mario Bros. Games that require split second reaction times such as Punch-Out and Battletoads are the worst with lag.

 

Makes 100% sense. I hope tomorrow night, I'll get time to compare, playing original NES via composite and a Retron 5 via HDMI. I did have some long sessions of Kid Icarus and I noticed no lag and made it fairly far.

 

I just love those Real Time Save slots... I just cant get that off a old NES...

[SegaSnatcher]

Luckily no one plays games in slow motion. From that video, if there's lag it's almost imperceptible and personally doesn't affect me. I suck at SMB and can play it just fine on a Retron 5.

Thats not how that works. It 100% makes a difference when there are a couple frames of lag. Its super critical for games like Mike Tyson's Punch Out and Mega Man games to have low input lag.

[SegaSnatcher]

The complaint is that when you're at that level of precision, every millisecond counts and can mean the difference between a speed run record or eternal shame. Since I have the reflexes and cognitive powers of a drunken sloth, it's never been an issue for me, but I'm sure it's real to the caffeinated spider monkeys who complain about this all. the. time.

 

It's a really efficient way to signal ones technical acumen, video gaming skill, and lack of social desirability, with just a single statement.

Some games are more forgiving when it comes to lag, but a lot of those old school NES games requires high precision response. If I can't beat Tyson then the lag is too much. That is why I sold my NES Classic Mini for an AVS. The lag was just too much for my tastes. With the AVS I can comfortably beat Tyson on my HDTV.

[AtariLeaf]

Thats not how that works. It 100% makes a difference when there are a couple frames of lag. Its super critical for games like Mike Tyson's Punch Out and Mega Man games to have low input lag.

 

Maybe. I play neither of those series. The great thing is you can still use real hardware anytime you want. Emulation is a compliment, not a replacement for the real thing.

[Flojomojo]

Emulation. For those who feel that "pretty good" can still be plenty of fun.

[mbd30]

I love emulation.Some systems such as SNES have become so expensive to collect for that I just emulate instead. For most games the lag isn't a deal breaker

[Austin]

Some games are more forgiving when it comes to lag, but a lot of those old school NES games requires high precision response. If I can't beat Tyson then the lag is too much. That is why I sold my NES Classic Mini for an AVS. The lag was just too much for my tastes. With the AVS I can comfortably beat Tyson on my HDTV.

 

There is "just playing", and then there is, "beating Tyson."

 

Flojo falls into the earlier category.

[derFunkenstein]

You need to use a slow mo camera. Anyways, by using youtubes speed feature I can see a good bit deal of lag.

 

You don't know how much lag you've adjusted to until you play with real hardware with a CRT or other low-lag setup and Mario seemingly jumps (almost) BEFORE you press the button.

 

Not a judgment one way or another. For crying out loud, people, just play games the way you want to play them.

Edited December 1, 2018 by derFunkenstein

[SegaSnatcher]

 

You don't know how much lag you've adjusted to until you play with real hardware with a CRT or other low-lag setup and Mario seemingly jumps (almost) BEFORE you press the button.

 

Not a judgment one way or another. For crying out loud, people, just play games the way you want to play them.

I do have real hardware and CRT setup, so yes I know exactly how much I have to adjust when using my AVS and HDTV. Its actually pretty funny how easy it is to beat Tyson when switching back to my CRT setup, but I've been slowly moving away from playing on a CRT as its just no longer practical for me to keep that big arse CRT around, plus I can't stand all the geometry issues and 32" just seems small to me now after playing so long on my 60" HDTV.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[SegaSnatcher]

 

There is "just playing", and then there is, "beating Tyson."

 

Flojo falls into the earlier category.

Yep, but think of it like this, if you use Tyson as a reference for low lag then that just means every other game will play that much better.

[derFunkenstein]

 

I do have real hardware and CRT setup, so yes I know exactly how much I have to adjust when using my AVS and HDTV. Its actually pretty funny how easy it is to beat Tyson when switching back to my CRT setup, but I've been slowly moving away from playing on a CRT as its just no longer practical for me to keep that big arse CRT around, plus I can't stand all the geometry issues and 32" just seems small to me now after playing so long on my 60" HDTV.

I meant to quote the guy who said there was no lag on the RetroN. I figured youd know, since you saw it, but he doesnt.

 

Earlier this year I sold all my hardware and said emulation is fine. Ive been slowly walking that back for the last month or so and have reacquired a lot of it. With an HDMI scaler my 55P605 is low lag and I can feel a huge difference between the Genesis I bought and MD.emu on an Nvidia shield. No contest and worth the investment. If I ever list another OSSC for sale in the future I hope someone links back to this post to talk me out of it. lol

[Tanooki]

I had a CRT up until 4-5 years ago and sold it so I do have a base line against my TV. That's why I can be pretty certain what does lag or not for me. Obviously the NES/SNES classic edition units are newer than that, but when it came to just using good old RCA cables or RF on a couple modern TVs I have and then back to the CRT when I could play the games the same I knew they were right and fine.

 

If the SNES/NES CE do lag, I haven't noticed, but it could be a TV related issue too you know. I'm ok with somewhere between better be damned right or good enough, kind of just depends what we're getting at. If the perceived lag if it's within human tolerances to cause an issue it'll bug me, because I learned the hard way selling a game off I thought broken to get it back a couple years later on another TV and realized otherwise. After that incident on the Wii, I make sure whatever model TV I get is under a certain threshold or it's just not happening. That really is the best way to figure out things, figure your limit, then rate it against displaylag.com or another good site and find the TV you need for what you want.

[derFunkenstein]

If the SNES/NES CE do lag, I haven't noticed, but it could be a TV related issue too you know. I'm ok with somewhere between better be damned right or good enough, kind of just depends what we're getting at. If the perceived lag if it's within human tolerances to cause an issue it'll bug me, because I learned the hard way selling a game off I thought broken to get it back a couple years later on another TV and realized otherwise. After that incident on the Wii, I make sure whatever model TV I get is under a certain threshold or it's just not happening. That really is the best way to figure out things, figure your limit, then rate it against displaylag.com or another good site and find the TV you need for what you want.

 

As far as emulation and responsiveness, I think the minis do a great job of mitigating input lag. The NES does not do a great job of mitigating audio lag, though. I hated playing on it, after waiting so long to get my hands on one. I was extremely disappointed.

 

Thinking I was either dreaming or suffering from some sort of setup issue, I started to research the issue. I landed on this MLiG video:

Jump to the 16:00 mark or so in order to hear examples. The SNES does not have this problem, at least not nearly to this extent.

 

I've gone to great lengths to reduce audio lag in my setup. And it's my receiver's or my TV's fault, because it shows up everywhere. For analog consoles, I use RCA inputs on my HDMI receiver directly. I have this great Phillips component/composite/S-Video 4-way switch that splits and outputs the audio in two pairs. One goes into the OSSC and the other goes into the receiver. I always switch my receiver to the analog input, but if my family wants to play, they don't care and they just use the OSSC audio.

 

I've tried this a bunch of different ways: ARC passing audio back to the receiver, a separate optical connection, different audio codecs, even the receiver's HDMI passthrough. I can't use both the TV speakers and the receiver at the same time, because the audio very obviously echoes due to lag.

 

So I recognize I'm just super picky, and others may not even notice, let alone care.

Edited December 2, 2018 by derFunkenstein

[AtariLeaf]

 

So I recognize I'm just super picky, and others may not even notice, let alone care.

 

This is what it comes down to. Again, these things are designed for people who just want to play the old games. They aren't comparing it to real hardware because chances are they don't have real hardware. But for those of us who do and these things bother them so much, you have the real hardware (unless you sold it thinking emulation was a suitable replacement) which again brings me back to my original point from above - emulation is a compliment NOT a replacement for original hardware. I love my NES classic to have a nice way to play games in my living room in a convenient set up or for when I have friends over that want to have a Blades of Steel marathon.

 

I still use the original hardware in my game room all the time too, even more so actually. That's why I'm glad FPGA's are really starting to gain steam because this is the real future for our collections when original hardware starts to die off completely, which I still think won't be in our lifetime anyway.

[MrMaddog]

I'm sorry, but what does lag on a POST-crash system like the NES have to do with the topic of PRE-crash systems like the Atari?

[mbd30]

I'm sorry, but what does lag on a POST-crash system like the NES have to do with the topic of PRE-crash systems like the Atari?

 

Thread drift happens, man.

[AtariLeaf]

 

Thread drift happens, man.

 

Happens a lot around here. One minute a thread is about Atari, the next it's about tacos. Shit happens.

[SegaSnatcher]

I'm sorry, but what does lag on a POST-crash system like the NES have to do with the topic of PRE-crash systems like the Atari?

Fine, lets get back on topic. Nobody actively hates on pre-NES consoles its just most pre-Nes consoles don't hold up all that well. I know this is blasphemy on this site, but the Atari 2600 is just not a very good system in 2018. Even the "good" games can really only be enjoyed in short bursts. I can't imagine someone honestly spending multiple hours playing 2600 games these days.

 

Now, the 8 bit line of Atari computers definitely are better in this regard as it was a pretty big leap over the 2600 in capability, so the games look, sound and even play better.

[+thegoldenband]

Luckily no one plays games in slow motion. From that video, if there's lag it's almost imperceptible and personally doesn't affect me. I suck at SMB and can play it just fine on a Retron 5.

 

Strange, I can see it right away at normal speed. It's subtle but it's there.

 

Going from emulation to real hardware with SMB is actually the thing that convinced me once and for all. I hadn't played real NES hardware in a long time since I was too frustrated by the flaky cart slot, but then I got a BLW and was just astonished by the difference. I ran through a warpless run of SMB right away, for either the first or second time ever.

 

Real hardware + CRT feels sort of like playing a really good musical instrument, where everything just feels responsive and intuitive and you're always able to carry out your intentions. That doesn't mean I never play on emulation, of course -- I do so regularly. But after playing a game in emulation for a while, playing it on real hardware often feels like I've taken off a 10-pound weight I didn't know I was wearing.

 

It's really frustrating, since I'd love to be able to play action games on my bright, clear HDTV, but they're just not as fun (though the lag on that setup is a combination of factors, not just emulation).

 

Getting back to the topic, I don't think people hate pre-crash games as much as hold them in contempt, or view them with indifference, or at best a kind of benign condescension. Too bad, since some of those games offer the kind of immediate, quick-release fun that's rare on anything newer, and the Atari paddle is a great interface for certain types of gaming.

[AtariLeaf]

but the Atari 2600 is just not a very good system in 2018. Even the "good" games can really only be enjoyed in short bursts. I can't imagine someone honestly spending multiple hours playing 2600 games these days.

 

 

I'm guessing you haven't watched any live streams like Zeropage Homebrews or Moonbeam Arcade on youtube. They'll play atari games for a few hours and on a regular basis. Not the same game for hours mind you but they'll play the system for hours. Hell even I'm a short burst player and I can play Draconian for a half hour or more at a time, it's that good.

 

Also, I don't see the correlation between the amount of time played and how good the game is. Does playing the latest modern brown fps for hours make it a better game than River Raid or HERO? I guess that it depends on what games you like. The only part of your post I agree with is where you begin a sentence with "I can't imagine". For instance I can't imagine spending hours playing most modern games. That doesn't make me right, and it doesn't make me wrong. It makes me, me. Its safe to assume most of the people who frequent the site also have vastly different opinions on what systems and games they spend the most time with, but I think it's correct to say the a lot of people spend a lot of time playing Atari and for durations that last more than half an hour.

 

It's an incorrect statement to say the 2600 is not a good system in 2018 because the games are designed for short burst play. Fun is relative. Because it's not fun for you doesn't mean it's not "good"

Edited December 2, 2018 by AtariLeaf

[SegaSnatcher]

 

I'm guessing you haven't watched any live streams like Zeropage Homebrews or Moonbeam Arcade on youtube. They'll play atari games for a few hours and on a regular basis. Not the same game for hours mind you but they'll play the system for hours. Hell even I'm a short burst player and I can play Draconian for a half hour or more at a time, it's that good.

 

Also, I don't see the correlation between the amount of time played and how good the game is. Does playing the latest modern brown fps for hours make it a better game than River Raid or HERO? I guess that it depends on what games you like. The only part of your post I agree with is where you begin a sentence with "I can't imagine". For instance I can't imagine spending hours playing most modern games. That doesn't make me right, and it doesn't make me wrong. It makes me, me. Its safe to assume most of the people who frequent the site also have vastly different opinions on what systems and games they spend the most time with, but I think it's correct to say the a lot of people spend a lot of time playing Atari and for durations that last more than half an hour.

 

It's an incorrect statement to say the 2600 is not a good system in 2018 because the games are designed for short burst play. Fun is relative. Because it's not fun for you doesn't mean it's not "good"

My point is its much easier to lose interest while playing 2600 than say NES which has games that offer far more depth. I enjoy the occasional Frogs and Flies and Joust on the 2600 with my Bro or friends, but when I want to do proper retro gaming I'm gonna choose something that offers a more immerssive experience. I can get lost in NES games, but with 2600 I always feel something is missing or a mechanic just isn't working quite right and it takes me out of the game.

Edited December 2, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[mbd30]

Atari 2600 games weren't designed for short bursts of play. They're usually skill based arcade games designed for playing for high score. If you can get into the mindset of playing for high score then they're still fun.

 

Try playing them competitively such as in the AtariAge contests.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

Strange, I can see it right away at normal speed. It's subtle but it's there.

 

Going from emulation to real hardware with SMB is actually the thing that convinced me once and for all. I hadn't played real NES hardware in a long time since I was too frustrated by the flaky cart slot, but then I got a BLW and was just astonished by the difference. I ran through a warpless run of SMB right away, for either the first or second time ever.

 

Real hardware + CRT feels sort of like playing a really good musical instrument, where everything just feels responsive and intuitive and you're always able to carry out your intentions. That doesn't mean I never play on emulation, of course -- I do so regularly. But after playing a game in emulation for a while, playing it on real hardware often feels like I've taken off a 10-pound weight I didn't know I was wearing.

 

It's really frustrating, since I'd love to be able to play action games on my bright, clear HDTV, but they're just not as fun (though the lag on that setup is a combination of factors, not just emulation).

 

Getting back to the topic, I don't think people hate pre-crash games as much as hold them in contempt, or view them with indifference, or at best a kind of benign condescension. Too bad, since some of those games offer the kind of immediate, quick-release fun that's rare on anything newer, and the Atari paddle is a great interface for certain types of gaming.

Get yourself a Hi-Def NES kit or AVS and you can enjoy playing NES games on your HDTV. The only lag you have to worry about with those devices is the inherent lag in your TV as neither the Hi-Def NES or AVS have any source lag.