Why do people actively hate "pre-NES" consoles?

[SegaSnatcher]

Atari 2600 games weren't designed for short bursts of play. They're usually skill based arcade games designed for playing for high score. If you can get into the mindset of playing for high score then they're still fun.

 

Try playing them competitively such as in the AtariAge contests.

See at that point I'd rather just play Mame or some other console that offers a better Arcade experience.

[+thegoldenband]

Get yourself a Hi-Def NES kit or AVS and you can enjoy playing NES games on your HDTV. The only lag you have to worry about with those devices is the inherent lag in your TV as neither the Hi-Def NES or AVS have any source lag.

 

Sadly my TV, despite being cited as a low-lag model on several sites (which is a big part of why I purchased it!), seems to have 100ms minimum lag.

 

I can't imagine what it would be over analog inputs, but over HDMI it's very noticeable, and turning on "game mode" bizarrely seems to make it worse. It's a Vizio D series, for what it's worth (D50-D1). They recently pushed a firmware update, so maybe I should try again.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

Sadly my TV, despite being cited as a low-lag model on several sites (which is a big part of why I purchased it!), seems to have 100ms minimum lag.

 

I can't imagine what it would be over analog inputs, but over HDMI it's very noticeable, and turning on "game mode" bizarrely seems to make it worse. It's a Vizio D series, for what it's worth (D50-D1). They recently pushed a firmware update, so maybe I should try again.

If this is your TV then it has relatively low input lag. Definitely nowhere close to 100ms. What is your signal chain? If you are using something between the game device and TV that could be the reason for additional lag.

 

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/d-series-1080p-2016

Edited December 2, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[+wongojack]

My point is its much easier to lose interest while playing 2600 than say NES which has games that offer far more depth. I enjoy the occasional Frogs and Flies and Joust on the 2600 with my Bro or friends, but when I want to do proper retro gaming I'm gonna choose something that offers a more immerssive experience. I can get lost in NES games, but with 2600 I always feel something is missing or a mechanic just isn't working quite right and it takes me out of the game.

 

While I do like NES games, if I have to generalize, I have the opposite opinion about 2600 vs NES in 2018. The NES is constantly reminding me that it hates me, and I usually want to stop playing it sooner than the 2600. I don't really think of NES games as immersive at all. They are beating me over the head with their retro-ness. OTOH, I can play a game like Kaboom for 2 hours (like I did during this week) and still want more. 2600 games are MORE accessible because they are more often just about pure gameplay. IMO that makes it a better console for 2018. After all, I can play "immersive" games on my PS4 or other current gen system.

[mbd30]

 

While I do like NES games, if I have to generalize, I have the opposite opinion about 2600 vs NES in 2018. The NES is constantly reminding me that it hates me, and I usually want to stop playing it sooner than the 2600. I don't really think of NES games as immersive at all. They are beating me over the head with their retro-ness. OTOH, I can play a game like Kaboom for 2 hours (like I did during this week) and still want more. 2600 games are MORE accessible because they are more often just about pure gameplay. IMO that makes it a better console for 2018. After all, I can play "immersive" games on my PS4 or other current gen system.

 

Kaboom is one of the most addictive games ever.

 

But the NES has a huge library and has its fair share of simple arcade type games that can be played for high score if that's what you're into. I've spent countless hours trying to improve my scores in Marble Madness and Tetris.

[+wongojack]

 

Kaboom is one of the most addictive games ever.

 

But the NES has a huge library and has its fair share of simple arcade type games that can be played for high score if that's what you're into. I've spent countless hours trying to improve my scores in Marble Madness and Tetris.

 

You are right, and that is what I tend to play most on the NES these days. High playtimes for me in recent years on the NES are for games like Spy Hunter and Elevator Action.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

While I do like NES games, if I have to generalize, I have the opposite opinion about 2600 vs NES in 2018. The NES is constantly reminding me that it hates me, and I usually want to stop playing it sooner than the 2600. I don't really think of NES games as immersive at all. They are beating me over the head with their retro-ness. OTOH, I can play a game like Kaboom for 2 hours (like I did during this week) and still want more. 2600 games are MORE accessible because they are more often just about pure gameplay. IMO that makes it a better console for 2018. After all, I can play "immersive" games on my PS4 or other current gen system.

Sure, but I think some outdated gameplay mechanics really hold back the 2600 in 2018. Also, NES offers plenty of accessible and pure gameplay titles like Kung Fu, Excite Bike, Galaga, Donkey Kong, OG Mario Bros etc...

[derFunkenstein]

Atari 2600 games weren't designed for short bursts of play. They're usually skill based arcade games designed for playing for high score. If you can get into the mindset of playing for high score then they're still fun.

 

Try playing them competitively such as in the AtariAge contests.

Yep, I used to play Jr. Pac-Man nonstop as a kid. Definitely took pride in having the most skill in my house. Same with Omega Race on the VIC20. These days I still play for extended periods but its for progress through a story or PS4 trophies or to revisit old favorites. Im not sure thats how they were MEANT to be played back then but its how I did it. Edited December 3, 2018 by derFunkenstein

[Tanooki]

 

As far as emulation and responsiveness, I think the minis do a great job of mitigating input lag. The NES does not do a great job of mitigating audio lag, though. I hated playing on it, after waiting so long to get my hands on one. I was extremely disappointed.

 

*snip*

 

So I recognize I'm just super picky, and others may not even notice, let alone care.

 

I don't know what to tell you. I've tried it on a few TVs, now listened to that video and watched that piece. I have to stick to the bald guy -- am I crazy? I'd have to say perhaps yes. I'm not hearing/seeing this audio lag. All 3 going one in order to the next I didn't see/hear some lag to the audio. I am open to feeling such things, said it enough times about my crappy 44"~ Samsung that convinced me Mario Allstars Wii release was crap emulation, to get it again a second time on another TV and it ran fine. Display lag is real for me over a certain delay speed and audio lag happened there too, so I didn't have this issue here with the classic.

 

But being realistic it's emulation, not even a FPGA going on there, it's just software running software one a foreign chipset so it is what it is.

 

 

Back on topic though, it's obvious why people would hate on the stuff. The audio and visual quality of pretty much all those systems is fairly garbage up against what the NES did, or the Colecovision before that. You went from blocks and beeps to something that actually did resemble something more tangible that didn't require some thick imagination to get behind it. Those 1983 systems (coleco/famicom) broke the barrier into starting to make things recognizable and interesting like the arcade did.

[+wongojack]

Sure, but I think some outdated gameplay mechanics really hold back the 2600 in 2018. Also, NES offers plenty of accessible and pure gameplay titles like Kung Fu, Excite Bike, Galaga, Donkey Kong, OG Mario Bros etc...

 

I don't know what to tell ya. As a kid, I had more NES games and definitely played the NES more back then. I'm aware of it's large library, but while I still enjoy the NES, I generally I prefer the 2600. Maybe it is because most of the accessible games on the NES are ones that I've already played elsewhere - I know about those. The discoveries I make on the NES are just not that type of game. On the 2600, I can discover games that fit into that easy to access, classic formula.

 

Some examples might be when I tried to play Legacy of the Wizard, Blaster Master, and Journey to Silius. I can tell that these are all high quality games, but I don't have any nostalgia for them, and I don't think I ever want to go back and try to play them more. I played LotW the longest and I just can't see myself devoting enough time to it to get through it.

 

It has been a while since I "discovered" a new 2600 game, but some can still hide from me. I racked up some big playtime on The Music Machine when I discovered it because it was instantly familiar (Kaboom clone) and offered some quick enjoyment. I could imagine myself mixing in some games of it in future paddle sessions easily. There were tons of 2600 games that I didn't know about from childhood that caused the same reaction when I found them. Games like Astroblast, Sky Diver, Frostbite and Spider Fighter would fit.

 

So anyway, sample size is 1, but my experience has been that I enjoy the 2600 more than the NES in 2018 (but I still like them both).

[+GoldLeader]

They don't Actively Hate Pre-NES, they RETRO Actively Hate Pre-NES ! Ha!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know, I know,...A lot of comedians out of work and here I am trying to be funny...

[Video]

What the? 100 ms is a SHITLOAD of delay. That's like 6 frames. I cope well with lag, but if it's higher than 2fps, then I'm out (slightly more than 30ms delay)

 

Many modern displays are axing analog inputs altogether, which sucks. Is there really no market for a gaming display? This day, it your going for HDMI, then computer monitors are your best bet. Tvs are fine for, well, tv, but many suck for games.

[NE146]

I've always considered myself relatively good at games but man a lot you guys must be at that much higher speed-runner level to be able to tell a couple of frames.. Just saying.

 

For me unless it's REALLY bad, I can't tell lag a lot of times.

 

[John Stamos Mullet]

My point is its much easier to lose interest while playing 2600 than say NES which has games that offer far more depth. I enjoy the occasional Frogs and Flies and Joust on the 2600 with my Bro or friends, but when I want to do proper retro gaming I'm gonna choose something that offers a more immerssive experience. I can get lost in NES games, but with 2600 I always feel something is missing or a mechanic just isn't working quite right and it takes me out of the game.

yeah, about that.

 

You speak for no one but yourself. I can't stand the NES.

[derFunkenstein]

 

I don't know what to tell you. I've tried it on a few TVs, now listened to that video and watched that piece. I have to stick to the bald guy -- am I crazy? I'd have to say perhaps yes. I'm not hearing/seeing this audio lag. All 3 going one in order to the next I didn't see/hear some lag to the audio. I am open to feeling such things, said it enough times about my crappy 44"~ Samsung that convinced me Mario Allstars Wii release was crap emulation, to get it again a second time on another TV and it ran fine. Display lag is real for me over a certain delay speed and audio lag happened there too, so I didn't have this issue here with the classic.

 

The video showed a direct capture, so no TV in play. If you don't see/hear the delay on the NES classic, then more power to you. Nobody should let my criticisms detract from their enjoyment.

[Tanooki]

I'm one who needs it under 30ms like Video above does to be satisfied and not run into issues of wondering what's wrong going on in the game as it's being played.

[Duke75]

 

While I do like NES games, if I have to generalize, I have the opposite opinion about 2600 vs NES in 2018. The NES is constantly reminding me that it hates me, and I usually want to stop playing it sooner than the 2600. I don't really think of NES games as immersive at all. They are beating me over the head with their retro-ness. OTOH, I can play a game like Kaboom for 2 hours (like I did during this week) and still want more. 2600 games are MORE accessible because they are more often just about pure gameplay. IMO that makes it a better console for 2018. After all, I can play "immersive" games on my PS4 or other current gen system.

 

For me it's about time and what my mood is. I go for NES-and-later systems when I'm in the mood to play something that's going to stretch over a few days or even weeks, but when I just want a game I can get into immediately and blast away, I'm more likely to gravitate toward the 2600. Super Mario Bros. 3 and Legend of Zelda are not games I'm going to decide to throw in and have quick fun for a single afternoon - they demand a slightly different sort of commitment than something like Turmoil or Yars' Revenge.

[Nebulon]

I've always considered myself relatively good at games but man a lot you guys must be at that much higher speed-runner level to be able to tell a couple of frames.. Just saying.

 

For me unless it's REALLY bad, I can't tell lag a lot of times.

 

 

Actually, for twitch games, 100ms is really bad. This same issue comes up for digital audio workstations. Even a 20 ms delay on those will drive musicians batty. Again, latency mainly impacts the older style of games like Pac-Man, Demon Attack, etc... (as well as top-down shooters, and the like). And of course, those happen to be my favorite kinds of games.

[derFunkenstein]

 

Actually, for twitch games, 100ms is really bad. This same issue comes up for digital audio workstations. Even a 20 ms delay on those will drive musicians batty. Again, latency mainly impacts the older style of games like Pac-Man, Demon Attack, etc... (as well as top-down shooters, and the like). And of course, those happen to be my favorite kinds of games.

 

Being a musician does require some precise timing. And maybe 30+ years of instrumental music is why these tiny little toys and their associated lag affect me. Even the "emulation powerhouse" (MVG's words) Shield Android TV has too much lag for me to really enjoy it. But since I *can* get it to a less-than-perceptible level for me means I just need to play that way.

 

BTW people active hate on post-NES consoles, too. It really bums me out.

 

My daughter loves Zelda games from Ocarina of Time on forward, but just refuses to play LttP or the NES games. "They're too hard" she says. I'm a failure as a parent.

Edited December 4, 2018 by derFunkenstein

[NE146]

My daughter loves Zelda games from Ocarina of Time on forward, but just refuses to play LttP or the NES games. "They're too hard" she says. I'm a failure as a parent.

 

My kid LOVED Link Between Worlds, but when I tried to introduce him to LttP (obvious connection right?) he totally rebelled and refused to touch it. I chalked it up to an 8 year old mind and kids being kids. He'll figure shit out eventually

[Tanooki]

Hah I decided to mess with mine a few days ago, always poking around in taking it easy on Kirby and Mario RPG and Mario World on the SNES CE. I sat her down in front of Zelda Link to the Past. She was getting frustrated enough, but not enough to bail. The amount of times dying in that castle to start was crazy trying to get her to listen to me how to attack the guards. She got it, then took it to the sanctuary and played it a little bit since. She also oddly decided to jump into Mario Kart which she over steers on badly, and strangely Street Fighter. She snuck a controller one morning, a NES one, and all that she could do was kick using lousy Dhalsim and still killed the first battle which was crazy.

 

I decided to stuff her on that Zelda game because I have Link's Awakening hiding in the closet along with SMB3(GBA) and some other stuff I've tucked away for Christmas. I wanted to make sure she had a chance of surviving it. She tends to not hate on the older stuff as long as it's fun.

[Video]

Gotta love kids, they have an honest prejudice/bias when it comes to things, as long as it falls somewhere close to what they like, they usually will like it.

[AtariLeaf]

See at that point I'd rather just play Mame or some other console that offers a better Arcade experience.

 

I get that but there are times when the 2600 is superior. Space Invaders is the obvious one. I find the arcade original a little dull by comparison. Another is Bump and Jump, as crude as the graphics are on the 2600 I find that port a lot more fun to play than the arcade version. I have the NES port as well but I still gravitate to the 2600 when I want to play that game.

 

Personally the reason I have so many copies of the same game, such as Donkey Kong, across several systems is I enjoy the different ways different systems approach the same game, sometimes for better sometimes for worse. The Mame ports are still great in some instances though for obvious reasons but lets be honest, arcade games were meant to be difficult to keep people pumping quarters into them, something the home ports didn't have to worry about. Sometimes it's also the control scheme. I prefer a joystick for games like Asteroids or especially Defender instead of the button scheme of the arcade original. It feels more natural to turn a joystick left or right in Defender than it is to hit a "reverse" button, for example.

[NE146]

I prefer a joystick for games like Asteroids or especially Defender instead of the button scheme of the arcade original. It feels more natural to turn a joystick left or right in Defender than it is to hit a "reverse" button, for example.

 

This comes up often and you're definitely not in the minority with that opinion. BUT! It's when arcade Defender gets fast and frantic in the upper levels and you have a dozen swarming mutants zooming to you spitting shots, that the control offered by the reverse & thrust button combo really starts to outshine pure joystick control. Not that many would ever have to (or want to) deal with that.. but just putting it out there!

[Flojomojo]

Using a joystick for Defender removes the option for playing with the ship's momentum. You can't drift properly with just a joystick. I wonder if Eugene Jarvis said something about this, since it's obviously purpose-built, they could easily have just used a joystick.

 

(google search because of course this has been written down! from here)

He continues. "The weird thing was, the whole reverse, two-way joystick thing. I wanted to put a four-way or eight-way joystick. I guess it was an eight-way joystick. And we just couldn’t find one that was reliable and available at the time. I think you could find four-way joysticks. But somehow we couldn’t source one. So that was why we ended up with a two-way joystick and the reverse button. But really, it turned out, that control was actually more powerful than a joystick. That’s why a lot of the console renditions of Defender really don’t work. Having that up and down… You can do this coasting, and then kind of reverse and coast. It gave you this much richer control scheme. It turned out to be a better control, which unfortunately has never been duplicated, really, on a console controller."

 

Asteroids would be fun with a spinner and a thrust button, but putting it all on the joystick, a la Crystal Castles, makes it a different game.