What could have saved the Jag?

[Bill Loguidice]

5 minutes ago, madman said:

Even today I still like the look of flat and Gouraud shaded 3D games. The 32x had games like Virtua Fighter, Virtua Racing Deluxe, Star Wars Arcade and Shadow Squadron which are great examples and those couldn't help the 32x...

True. And the 32X massively outsold the Jaguar, with about 665,000 units sold before steep discounts/liquidation before ending up at around 800,000 units, versus the Jaguar with about 125,000 pre-liquidation against 225,000 manufactured. With any "solution" to the Jaguar problem, we always have to put into perspective the many multiples the Jaguar was behind practically every other major system post-Crash in terms of sales (although it can be argued the 32X was an add-on since the stand-alone was never released, but whatever). So many things woulda/coulda/shoulda happened that even going back in time and being as smart/careful as possible, there are remarkably few viable pathways to any type of success.

[+madman]

18 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

True. And the 32X massively outsold the Jaguar, with about 665,000 units sold before steep discounts/liquidation before ending up at around 800,000 units, versus the Jaguar with about 125,000 pre-liquidation against 225,000 manufactured. With any "solution" to the Jaguar problem, we always have to put into perspective the many multiples the Jaguar was behind practically every other major system post-Crash in terms of sales (although it can be argued the 32X was an add-on since the stand-alone was never released, but whatever). So many things woulda/coulda/shoulda happened that even going back in time and being as smart/careful as possible, there are remarkably few viable pathways to any type of success.

The Jaguar was dead before it was even released, just like there's nothing that could've (not could of) saved the Dreamcast. 

[+GoldLeader]

On 9/22/2024 at 1:05 AM, roots.genoa said:

Thanks, I had forgotten it was mine to be honest. 😅

HMmmmm...

 

In that case,  I'll steal it and throw it in a Status Update!   MuhuwawaHAaaaa!

[+GoldLeader]

41 minutes ago, madman said:

That Jaguar was dead before it was even released, just like there's nothing that could've (not could of) saved the Dreamcast. 

 

You get a Gold Star ⭐, a Brownie Button, and an Activision Patch for not saying "Could OF" 

[saboteur]

Just out of technical interest, could Fight or Life have been smoother / faster if it had no texture mapping ?

 

I know the whole theme of the game would change but i always remember a massive shiny metallic looking walking robot demo on my old 800xl, so maybe something along those lines.

 

But then i don't know if there are speed advantages between flat sufaces, gouraud shading or texture mapping.

[42bs]

49 minutes ago, saboteur said:

Just out of technical interest, could Fight or Life have been smoother / faster if it had no texture mapping ?

 

I know the whole theme of the game would change but i always remember a massive shiny metallic looking walking robot demo on my old 800xl, so maybe something along those lines.

 

But then i don't know if there are speed advantages between flat sufaces, gouraud shading or texture mapping.

Sure there are differences:

- quickest: flat shaded: Single color, no need to read data before writing as the color is stored inside Blitter. Phrase mode possible.
- next Gouraud shaded: More complicated calculations (each corner of a triangle) for the gradients. IIRC only pixel mode.

- last texture mapped: Data must be read from RAM and then written back to screen memory.

 

Adding Z buffering makes it even worse.

[+swlovinist]

I am a fan of the Atari Jaguar now but the reality of when it was released was very challenging.   You had too many competing consoles/handhelds on the market that were offering a flood of games.   I have memories of seeing at Kay Bee Toys clearance for $50 after the PlayStation was released.   For a console that did not do well on the market at all, it has a loyal following and many aftermarket games.   

[agradeneu]

3 hours ago, saboteur said:

Just out of technical interest, could Fight or Life have been smoother / faster if it had no texture mapping ?

 

 

Shorter rounds and more impactful specials had done wonders to the game.

[+GoldLeader]

On 9/23/2024 at 3:22 PM, madman said:

The Jaguar was dead before it was even released, just like there's nothing that could've (not could of) saved the Dreamcast. 

 

Not to be too off topic,  and again Super Like for not sayin' Could OF, (That's more annoying than when someone put's an apostrophe in the wrong place...)  But SEGA Pulling their head out of their Ass could have saved the Dreamcast.

 

Now,  OTOH,  ATARI would have had to be Super Rich,  Super Smart,  and pull their head out for Jag saving...

[Lostdragon]

On 9/4/2024 at 4:36 PM, alucardX said:

I'd be interested to hear them if you have sources whether that is video or article based I don't really mind either. I will find the video I watched and share it to you if you'd like because I find all that interesting.

Found a second source where Jez again states it was a Battlezone style game that got them the SFX work.. 

 

😂 And he wasn't impressed by Kasumi Ninja it seems. 

 

https://archive.org/details/nintendo-magazine-system-au-23-february-1995

 

[agradeneu]

When you play Vortex, you suddenly realize the performance difference between the Sfx and the Jaguar.

[82-T/A]

On 9/23/2024 at 5:22 PM, madman said:

The Jaguar was dead before it was even released, just like there's nothing that could've (not could of) saved the Dreamcast. 

I think truly... the Jaguar could have had some moderate success if they'd had a lot of good games early on, and the price was a bit more affordable. All things that likely were impossible, so to your point... dead before it was even released. I'm glad they tried though, but I know that most companies tend to take a loss on the systems on roll-out with the intent to earn a huge return on system-game licensing. Seems like Atari just didn't have it in the cards... either poor planning or whatever.

 

The one that DOES surprise me, is both the Sega Dreamcast and the Sega Saturn. Both seemed like fantastic systems. I used to collect all things video game, and then unloaded like almost everything. I don't have a PS anything, or an XBOX, etc. But the systems I did keep were the Saturn and Dreamcast. I love those systems. I never really figured out why they failed, other than to assume that maybe Nintendo and Sony already had better market share... and it was just too much to overcome. 

[+GoldLeader]

8 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Found a second source where Jez again states it was a Battlezone style game that got them the SFX work.. 

 

😂 And he wasn't impressed by Kasumi Ninja it seems. 

 

https://archive.org/details/nintendo-magazine-system-au-23-february-1995

 

 

Backing up a little bit...I never owned a Jag in the '90s,  I got mine IDK,  this year,...Not too long ago.

 

But I remember thinking when Jaguar was out that it needed some big time games...Although I don't care too much these days,  Fighters were all the rage back then (The Primal Rage LOL) and  I thought maybe they'd get a deal to have the Best version of Mortal Kombat or something...Did it have Primal Rage at least?  I'm thinking so.  It's funny what ya remember in hindsight.  What all the magazines said,  or maybe I should phrase it what Atari said in the mags was that it didn't matter at all that they didn't have Mortal Kombat because they would have their own bespoke fighting game very soon, and basically that it would be better than anything on Neo Geo,  and that it would blow the Hell outta Mortal Kombat and it would simply become the newest and Best fighting game in the entire universe.  And that it was going to be called Kasumi Ninja!

 

Now,  I don't own Kasumi Ninja.  I've never played Kasumi Ninja.  But from what I remember,  it was gonna be the cat's meow!  Now,  are you telling me...Telling me that this game was not the Greatest thing since sliced cheese?  Atari themselves said it would rule the land!  Please don't tell me they were lying or padding the truth a little bit.  I mean after all these years I figured,  Well, Now I have an Atari Jaguar console!   I'll Finally,  eventually,  after so many moons,  get to play this fighter that has no doubt ruled the fighter landscape for many decades by now.

 

 

 

 

[82-T/A]

6 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

 

Backing up a little bit...I never owned a Jag in the '90s,  I got mine IDK,  this year,...Not too long ago.

 

But I remember thinking when Jaguar was out that it needed some big time games...Although I don't care too much these days,  Fighters were all the rage back then (The Primal Rage LOL) and  I thought maybe they'd get a deal to have the Best version of Mortal Kombat or something...Did it have Primal Rage at least?  I'm thinking so.  It's funny what ya remember in hindsight.  What all the magazines said,  or maybe I should phrase it what Atari said in the mags was that it didn't matter at all that they didn't have Mortal Kombat because they would have their own bespoke fighting game very soon, and basically that it would be better than anything on Neo Geo,  and that it would blow the Hell outta Mortal Kombat and it would simply become the newest and Best fighting game in the entire universe.  And that it was going to be called Kasumi Ninja!

 

Now,  I don't own Kasumi Ninja.  I've never played Kasumi Ninja.  But from what I remember,  it was gonna be the cat's meow!  Now,  are you telling me...Telling me that this game was not the Greatest thing since sliced cheese?  Atari themselves said it would rule the land!  Please don't tell me they were lying or padding the truth a little bit.  I mean after all these years I figured,  Well, Now I have an Atari Jaguar console!   I'll Finally,  eventually,  after so many moons,  get to play this fighter that has no doubt ruled the fighter landscape for many decades by now.

 

A lot of good points. Primal Rage was awesome... BUT, you could only get it on the CD Drive, which NO ONE bought. Ultra Vortek was great... hands down the best fighter on the Jag... but no one knew about it. It had no arcade "presence" and so no one had ever heard of it.

 

I bought my Jaguar in the 90s, in 1996 (1997?) when they went on clearance. I remember playing one at a friend's house, and he had Wolf 3D... which was objectively the best version of Wolfenstein I'd ever seen or played anywhere (better than the PC). But I remember really disliking the fact that DOOM was on the system. As a person who played mostly computer games, I kind of laughed at the Jaguar and thought it was pathetic that they had DOOM on it. Even making fun of a kid in school who had a Jaguar and told me it was awesome. I had no loyalty to the Jaguar at the time, even though I'd grown up with Atari. I kind of feel bad now, haha... but I've certainly supported the new Atari as much as I possibly can.

[phoenixdownita]

25 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

….  And that it was going to be called Kasumi Ninja!

 

Now,  I don't own Kasumi Ninja.  I've never played Kasumi Ninja.  But from what I remember,  it was gonna be the cat's meow!  Now,  are you telling me...Telling me that this game was not the Greatest thing since sliced cheese?  Atari themselves said it would rule the land!  Please don't tell me they were lying or padding the truth a little bit.  I mean after all these years I figured,  Well, Now I have an Atari Jaguar console!   I'll Finally,  eventually,  after so many moons,  get to play this fighter that has no doubt ruled the fighter landscape for many decades by now.

It all depends on how impressive you think a redhead “Scottish” fighter throwing fireballs from under the kilt is?

 

During the MK timeframe I recollect me and my friends (all very immature me included) waiting for MK or alike to add to fatality, animality, etc… some more sexualized versions … you know …bro-tality, anality etc… etc… (we did not think it through as Raiden vs Kitana may work one way, Kano vs Kabal … I shudder … anyways) so guess Kasumi Ninja was onto something … not!

Edited Wednesday at 05:41 PM by phoenixdownita

[+GoldLeader]

18 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

It all depends on how impressive you think a redhead “Scottish” fighter throwing fireballs from under the kilt is?

 

 

 

You sure those are fireballs?    (LOL)

[phoenixdownita]

10 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

 

You sure those are fireballs?    (LOL)

you be the judge

[roots.genoa]

Funnily, today I wrote the notice (not sure it's the right word) for that game since we will have it playable during our next big video game exhibition starting next month. And of course I mentioned the kilt!

[Editorb]

5 hours ago, 82-T/A said:

The one that DOES surprise me, is both the Sega Dreamcast and the Sega Saturn. Both seemed like fantastic systems. I used to collect all things video game, and then unloaded like almost everything. I don't have a PS anything, or an XBOX, etc. But the systems I did keep were the Saturn and Dreamcast. I love those systems. I never really figured out why they failed, other than to assume that maybe Nintendo and Sony already had better market share... and it was just too much to overcome. 

I disliked Nintendo but endured an NES, then mostly played 7800 and Genesis in college. Thought Sega CD was interesting but half baked, then scoffed at 32X. By Saturn launch, seemed clear to me Sega was throwing crap against wall to see if anything stuck. I knew one guy who bought a Dreamcast, and told him good luck cuz it appeared Sega was circling the turlet bowl. 

[82-T/A]

4 minutes ago, Editorb said:

I disliked Nintendo but endured an NES, then mostly played 7800 and Genesis in college. Thought Sega CD was interesting but half baked, then scoffed at 32X. By Saturn launch, seemed clear to me Sega was throwing crap against wall to see if anything stuck. I knew one guy who bought a Dreamcast, and told him good luck cuz it appeared Sega was circling the turlet bowl. 

 

Man, I guess that's kind of wild to me. I don't think I was really paying attention during the Saturn or Dreamcast time (I got them both much later)... but the games for the Dreamcast are pretty amazing. I have several where the graphics were downright fantastic. Granted, I did have a an original Playstation (barely used it and literally gave it away, hahaha), but I remember there being some pretty great games on there... my favorite being high octane. I can't remember which one it was, but Twisted Taxi or something with an Ice Cream man with an evil clown that drove destruction derby style... that game was awesome (I thought that was on the Saturn or the Dreamcast, shit... I'm confusing myself).

[UHATEIT]

4 hours ago, 82-T/A said:

 

Man, I guess that's kind of wild to me. I don't think I was really paying attention during the Saturn or Dreamcast time (I got them both much later)... but the games for the Dreamcast are pretty amazing. I have several where the graphics were downright fantastic. Granted, I did have a an original Playstation (barely used it and literally gave it away, hahaha), but I remember there being some pretty great games on there... my favorite being high octane. I can't remember which one it was, but Twisted Taxi or something with an Ice Cream man with an evil clown that drove destruction derby style... that game was awesome (I thought that was on the Saturn or the Dreamcast, shit... I'm confusing myself).

High Octane was great! Lower in your post the one you're thinking of was Twisted Metal. A very fine game, lots of fun, good enough they even had a TV series for it sometime last year.

[Lostdragon]

13 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

 

Backing up a little bit...I never owned a Jag in the '90s,  I got mine IDK,  this year,...Not too long ago.

 

But I remember thinking when Jaguar was out that it needed some big time games...Although I don't care too much these days,  Fighters were all the rage back then (The Primal Rage LOL) and  I thought maybe they'd get a deal to have the Best version of Mortal Kombat or something...Did it have Primal Rage at least?  I'm thinking so.  It's funny what ya remember in hindsight.  What all the magazines said,  or maybe I should phrase it what Atari said in the mags was that it didn't matter at all that they didn't have Mortal Kombat because they would have their own bespoke fighting game very soon, and basically that it would be better than anything on Neo Geo,  and that it would blow the Hell outta Mortal Kombat and it would simply become the newest and Best fighting game in the entire universe.  And that it was going to be called Kasumi Ninja!

 

Now,  I don't own Kasumi Ninja.  I've never played Kasumi Ninja.  But from what I remember,  it was gonna be the cat's meow!  Now,  are you telling me...Telling me that this game was not the Greatest thing since sliced cheese?  Atari themselves said it would rule the land!  Please don't tell me they were lying or padding the truth a little bit.  I mean after all these years I figured,  Well, Now I have an Atari Jaguar console!   I'll Finally,  eventually,  after so many moons,  get to play this fighter that has no doubt ruled the fighter landscape for many decades by now.

 

 

 

 

To this day, my gut instinct tells me Jag CD Primal Rage was a contractual obligation piece of coding by Probe Software for Atari, who desperately needed CD titles at that time. 

[82-T/A]

8 hours ago, UHATEIT said:

High Octane was great! Lower in your post the one you're thinking of was Twisted Metal. A very fine game, lots of fun, good enough they even had a TV series for it sometime last year.

 

YES! Thank you... I am pretty sure I had Twisted Metal for the Sega Dreamcast (I mean, I still do, just haven't played games in a while unfortunately)

[Bill Loguidice]

Primal Rage is a good example of the plight of the Jaguar. What should have been a near-flawless port (outside of what would have been unavoidable frame drops due to RAM limitations) turned into what is probably the fourth best of the seven original console versions. Of course, none of the ports were perfect, but still, for a system that was not expected to have good 3D fighting games, it should have had some really special 2D fighting games. Even if they couldn't have gotten the big name titles like something from the Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter series, they should have been able to nail something like Primal Rage. Of course, it always comes down to skill and resources, and certainly they lacked a hell of a lot of the latter.

I look forward to seeing how the upcoming Jaguar Mortal Kombat homebrew evolves. It looks quite promising and might finally give the platform a definitive one-on-one fighting game.

[Bill Loguidice]

14 minutes ago, 82-T/A said:

 

YES! Thank you... I am pretty sure I had Twisted Metal for the Sega Dreamcast (I mean, I still do, just haven't played games in a while unfortunately)

Sony never made Twisted Metal for the Dreamcast. Twisted Metal only appeared on PlayStation platforms. Maybe you're conflating it with something like Speed Devils on the Dreamcast or another of its few dozen racing-style games?