Looking for any post 1988 Atari 7800 and sourced SMS sales figures (any date) for new book.

[empsolo]

The other question is wether or not these sales are sales to retailers or sold through to consumers.

[+Mitch]

21 minutes ago, empsolo said:

The other question is wether or not these sales are sales to retailers or sold through to consumers.

Yes, or even pre-sales.

 

We sold one million consoles, from a certain point of view.

 

Mitch

[mr_me]

5 hours ago, Mitch said:

...

 

Looking at my notes, it seems that Atari had manufactured ~110,00 consoles by the end of 1986. Not counting the 5000 sold in 1984. However the last ~21,000 were not manufactured until December of 1986 so I am skeptical that they could have sold that many.

 

I don't have anything to say about the 1988 press release except I suspect the number was perhaps a bit inflated. I haven't completed my research on that area to give a better answer.

 

Doesn't really help with your book though, sorry.

 

Mitch

Why wouldn't they be able to ship the ones manufactured in december 1986?

 

What's the evidence that Atari Inc. shipped any Atari 7800 in 1984?

 

4 hours ago, empsolo said:

The other question is wether or not these sales are sales to retailers or sold through to consumers.

It's units shipped to retailers and distributers.  If you look at the internal sales reports you can see that returns are accounted for as well.

[Leeroy ST]

23 hours ago, Torr said:

 

So... you really think kids would rather play a "more" accurate arcade port of 1983 Mario Bros. in 1989 rather than anything released on the NES by that point???

 

 

were YOU this Derek Jacobs I wonder??

Are you going to pretend that:

 

A) People weren't buying 7800's in 1989 and may have opinions?

 

B) That there was must overlap between the 7800 and NES audiences?

 

On 8/27/2020 at 11:05 AM, Bill Loguidice said:

We know that in South America the SMS had a stronghold so I wouldn't necessarily give the 7800 much extra there, although there does seem to be a lot of Atari 2600/7800 inventory from Venezuela still.

The bottom line is I'm still highly skeptical of the Atari 7800 that, with 59 whole games worldwide (not counting the 2600 stuff) and what was considered legacy controllers by the late 80s, would be appealing to very many people compared to the SMS that had over 300 and the NES/Famicom that had more than double even that, not to mention the latter two having all kinds of peripherals and other add-ons. Outside of the 2600 stuff, all the 7800 had was light gun support that wasn't even for a light gun specifically made for it. So again, all of that added to the fact that 7800 stuff was advertised less, covered in magazines less, had less inventory in stores, etc., and I'm very, very skeptical of overly large sales numbers.

I don't understand your skepticism for NA at the least.

 

In NA it had the brand name an insentive for the 2600 buffs to upgrade, and for the audience alienated by the NES the closest Home console before the Genesis you had from the previous age was the 7800. It also doesn't help that in the first two years the SMS had extremely limited distribution and seemed to only show up in major metropolitan markets. Add in Ataris' imo bad idea to buy their own retail stores and price cuts and it makes sense why the media kept placing Atari a very far distant Second.

 

Because while later on the SMS had more games, many of those later games people mention on boards came out when the Genesi was out until discontinuation in 1992, which showed the SMS was crashing in sales at the time just like 7800 was. You also have more article and news paper commentary about the 7800 as well even though it may not have had as many third-party acessories or games in general.

 

Atari's brand name also likely helped with that. I remember some shopping categlogs that didn't even mention Sega. Heck, it wasn't until the 2000's when the SMS was inflated into the spot light, in the 90's if you had any article talking about who was fighting Nintendo during the NES, if they mentioned anyone, it was Atari most of the time. I think as crazy as it may seem it's more likely the 7800 appealed to more Americans in the US than the SMS did, for the time they were relevant.

 

With that said they both combined couldn't even sell 4-5 million against the NES so it's all peanuts. I think both would have sold more with a real marketing budget. From what I understand Sega kind of had a decent sized budget but they were cautious and it was only Atari that just didn't have the money(and of what they had they used for the ST and to clear out 8-bit inventory. No room much for thr 7800)

 

10 hours ago, Mitch said:

I found the 1986 reference and the 1988 one.

http://www.ataricompendium.com/archives/newsletters/video_game_update/computer_entertainer_dec86.pdf

Page 8

 

and

 

 

Looking at my notes, it seems that Atari had manufactured ~110,00 consoles by the end of 1986. Not counting the 5000 sold in 1984. However the last ~21,000 were not manufactured until December of 1986 so I am skeptical that they could have sold that many.

 

I don't have anything to say about the 1988 press release except I suspect the number was perhaps a bit inflated. I haven't completed my research on that area to give a better answer.

 

Doesn't really help with your book though, sorry.

 

Mitch

I saw an article in the past that corroborated on Ataris' statement they sold 100k and would have sold more if they could make it so anything over 100k is a bit iffy. I don't think that the 1988 numbers are inflated as Atari kicked up production and had a large budget by the end of 86, 86 was really the only year where their personal situation affected production, as third-party software was NIntendos fault and impacted Atari and Sega at the time. Also western developers didn't see the performance or environment they wanted and stayed on computers and PC.

 

Really makes you think what would have happened if they kept the arcade division.

[Leeroy ST]

5 hours ago, mr_me said:

It's units shipped to retailers and distributers.  If you look at the internal sales reports you can see that returns are accounted for as well.

That's usually how it worked, the shipped vs. sold thing seems to be a relatively common modern argument from the 2000's. 

[Bill Loguidice]

15 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Are you going to pretend that:

 

A) People weren't buying 7800's in 1989 and may have opinions?

 

B) That there was must overlap between the 7800 and NES audiences?

 

I don't understand your skepticism for NA at the least.

 

In NA it had the brand name an insentive for the 2600 buffs to upgrade, and for the audience alienated by the NES the closest Home console before the Genesis you had from the previous age was the 7800. It also doesn't help that in the first two years the SMS had extremely limited distribution and seemed to only show up in major metropolitan markets. Add in Ataris' imo bad idea to buy their own retail stores and price cuts and it makes sense why the media kept placing Atari a very far distant Second.

 

Because while later on the SMS had more games, many of those later games people mention on boards came out when the Genesi was out until discontinuation in 1992, which showed the SMS was crashing in sales at the time just like 7800 was. You also have more article and news paper commentary about the 7800 as well even though it may not have had as many third-party acessories or games in general.

 

Atari's brand name also likely helped with that. I remember some shopping categlogs that didn't even mention Sega. Heck, it wasn't until the 2000's when the SMS was inflated into the spot light, in the 90's if you had any article talking about who was fighting Nintendo during the NES, if they mentioned anyone, it was Atari most of the time. I think as crazy as it may seem it's more likely the 7800 appealed to more Americans in the US than the SMS did, for the time they were relevant.

 

With that said they both combined couldn't even sell 4-5 million against the NES so it's all peanuts. I think both would have sold more with a real marketing budget. From what I understand Sega kind of had a decent sized budget but they were cautious and it was only Atari that just didn't have the money(and of what they had they used for the ST and to clear out 8-bit inventory. No room much for thr 7800)

 

I saw an article in the past that corroborated on Ataris' statement they sold 100k and would have sold more if they could make it so anything over 100k is a bit iffy. I don't think that the 1988 numbers are inflated as Atari kicked up production and had a large budget by the end of 86, 86 was really the only year where their personal situation affected production, as third-party software was NIntendos fault and impacted Atari and Sega at the time. Also western developers didn't see the performance or environment they wanted and stayed on computers and PC.

 

Really makes you think what would have happened if they kept the arcade division.

I ask this in all seriousness... Were you around at the time these three systems were competing in the market here in the US? There was minimal buzz for the Atari 7800 in the US. There was little shelf space dedicated to it outside of Toys R Us from what I recall, which of course also carried the INTV System III. I don't even recall 7800 demo stations, when there were plenty for the NES and quite a few for the SMS. There was minimal magazine coverage for the 7800. It was mostly NES, with the SMS easily getting a distant second in coverage. TV commercials were heavily NES and SMS. Etc.

 

The Atari name wasn't exactly a hot commodity post Crash. It was still relevant, it was still there, but the introduction of the NES and these higher-level games changed everything, particularly expectations. 

Look, we all know the NES dominated here in the US and everyone else was fighting for scraps until the Genesis picked up steam. While we still need to see better evidence that the SMS sold around 2 million units in the US, I also don't know how far past 1 million we can really credit to the 7800. That's a pretty big gap even if you shave off units for the SMS and give some back to the 7800. In short, I just don't think the sales ranking really changes in any way with NES (1), SMS (distant 2), 7800 (3), and then everyone else (basically Atari 2600 and INTV System III) post-Crash.

Could the SMS have done better? Possibly. We know that Tonka didn't do great with the distribution plan and should have reacted faster like Nintendo did by pulling back rights from Worlds of Wonder (not to mention Nintendo's strong-arming against competing products). However, it wasn't like Atari was particularly welcome at retail either. They had burned quite a few bridges by that time.

[Zoyous]

39 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

You also have more article and news paper commentary about the 7800 as well even though it may not have had as many third-party acessories or games in general.

 

Atari's brand name also likely helped with that. I remember some shopping categlogs that didn't even mention Sega. Heck, it wasn't until the 2000's when the SMS was inflated into the spot light, in the 90's if you had any article talking about who was fighting Nintendo during the NES, if they mentioned anyone, it was Atari most of the time.

 

Citations? Which catalogs? Not Sears or JC Penny. Which magazines? I've still got a big collection of Electronic Game Player (the four-issue run predecessor to EGM), EGM, Game Players, and VG & CE from that time period. I'm sure you can find scans as well... the Master System simply has more coverage than the 7800. For example, in issue 4 of EGP (September/October 1988, p. 18), the theme of an editorial on the 7800 is "does it have what it takes to compete against Nintendo and Sega?" The Top Ten games rankings are for Nintendo, Sega, and Arcade. The International Scoreboards are for Coin-Op Video Games, Pinballs, Nintendo, and Sega. A mail order retailer ad lists Nintendo and Sega.

[Leeroy ST]

27 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I ask this in all seriousness... Were you around at the time these three systems were competing in the market here in the US? There was minimal buzz for the Atari 7800 in the US. There was little shelf space dedicated to it outside of Toys R Us from what I recall, which of course also carried the INTV System III. I don't even recall 7800 demo stations, when there were plenty for the NES and quite a few for the SMS. There was minimal magazine coverage for the 7800. It was mostly NES, with the SMS easily getting a distant second in coverage. TV commercials were heavily NES and SMS. Etc.

 

The Atari name wasn't exactly a hot commodity post Crash. It was still relevant, it was still there, but the introduction of the NES and these higher-level games changed everything, particularly expectations. 

Look, we all know the NES dominated here in the US and everyone else was fighting for scraps until the Genesis picked up steam. While we still need to see better evidence that the SMS sold around 2 million units in the US, I also don't know how far past 1 million we can really credit to the 7800. That's a pretty big gap even if you shave off units for the SMS and give some back to the 7800. In short, I just don't think the sales ranking really changes in any way with NES (1), SMS (distant 2), 7800 (3), and then everyone else (basically Atari 2600 and INTV System III) post-Crash.

Could the SMS have done better? Possibly. We know that Tonka didn't do great with the distribution plan and should have reacted faster like Nintendo did by pulling back rights from Worlds of Wonder (not to mention Nintendo's strong-arming against competing products). However, it wasn't like Atari was particularly welcome at retail either. They had burned quite a few bridges by that time.

 

This seems to be based on the area you lived in at the time because almost every newspaper or magazine article if it wasn't NES exclusive talked about the Atari 7800 as an alternative, usually SMS was seen in larger cities/metropolitan areas and not so much in mediumish cities, towns, and rural areas. Even then both weren't covered very well even in major metropolitan areas, only some major outlets would mention the SMS or the power it advertised. Also Higher-level games? I uisually don't hear that statement from people who were around at the time.

 

If we don't have evidence what are you shaving sales numbers off of? This seems to be more about feelings than anything else, like I said a person alienated by an NES, the few who would buy a home console would likely logically buy a 7800 than a SMS, because it would have progression of those older favorite titles, plus a few Computer style games (which is where most of the alienated audience was if they were still playing games), and articles from earlier in their loves reflect this as Atari was the "familiar console" as they say. When the Genesis came out Sega had brought (and created) western studios back as well as bringing in game styles that would appeal to a lot of the audience the NES was never able to attract and that NEC let slip through their fingers due to incompetence.

 

I understand that Atari had shaky relations with retail, to the point where they pissed them off more buy purchasing their own retail, but I;m confused why you think the SMS had "that" much more presense especially in the first few years of both their lives which are arguably the most important when bringing up the sales argument. 

 

I can't see a SMS that catches up to the 7800 as it would have to do so my 1990 in the US and it's sales were in free fall at the time. The SMS starte out very slow, I remember seeing something like 50,000 sales in 86 not sure how true that source is as I can't find another to Corroborate it, but it was clear through othert sources that Segas distribution was lacking at the time, and then with Atari gaining more money from "sold out" 780''s plus the computer division picking up the pace, and the success of the XEGS launch (sold out the whole shipment of 100k for a console based on an outdated computer platform) clearly showed that name still had more steam then probably what a lot of the Media though back then.

 

Of course, when trying to get the full concrete history it's tough regardless. I've been through free and paid sources for years and there's a reason why I am doing the early stuff last for the book. 

 

Even with what I consider to be a logical progression without evidence I can't even put that in the book as I am aiming for accuracy, but it's an interesting and fun discussion.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[Leeroy ST]

2 minutes ago, Zoyous said:

 

Citations? Which catalogs? Not Sears or JC Penny. Which magazines? I've still got a big collection of Electronic Game Player (the four-issue run predecessor to EGM), EGM, Game Players, and VG & CE from that time period. I'm sure you can find scans as well... the Master System simply has more coverage than the 7800. For example, in issue 4 of EGP (September/October 1988, p. 18), the theme of an editorial on the 7800 is "does it have what it takes to compete against Nintendo and Sega?" The Top Ten games rankings are for Nintendo, Sega, and Arcade. The International Scoreboards are for Coin-Op Video Games, Pinballs, Nintendo, and Sega. A mail order retailer ad lists Nintendo and Sega.

That's a very small percentage of what was avaaialble that your stretching to make the generalization that the SMS had more coverage when that's hard to prove. But I also said it may depend on the area you were in as medium and smallr citieis and rural areas I have rarely seen SMS related content unless it was in larger cities and metropolitan areas. Of course, coverage doesn't equal sales either, and the biggest coverage for the SMS I've seen is 89-discontinuation which would again place the issue about sales between the two on the SMS performance from 86-89, and that's the missing info that is needed to settle the argument.

 

Or any 7800 sales post 1988 article as I have some stuff that may corroborate it's performance if those exist, but I'm starting to think that unless someone here has new information I may have to change the format of this part of the book. Mention both arguments and the evidence of each but then mention that there's too much missing infoormation to make a concrete conclusion.

 

Sadly I have a feeling I'm going to be doing something like that a lot for the 70's-late 80's time frame of video game history. But no one said it would be easy.

[ubersaurus]

There are a few early game history books out there that do note the data gaps where they exist. No one is surprised by them. I suggest you look into them, there’s no shortage of game history books. https://thehistoryofhowweplay.wordpress.com/2020/08/27/the-video-game-history-booklist/
 

Incidentally I have also never come across any evidence that any 7800s made it to stores in 1984. Far as I can tell the rollout was suspended when GCC, Atari Corp and Warner got into their tiff over who pays GCC.

[Bill Loguidice]

32 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

 

If we don't have evidence what are you shaving sales numbers off of? This seems to be more about feelings than anything else, like I said a person alienated by an NES, the few who would buy a home console would likely logically buy a 7800 than a SMS, because it would have progression of those older favorite titles, plus a few Computer style games (which is where most of the alienated audience was if they were still playing games), and articles from earlier in their loves reflect this as Atari was the "familiar console" as they say. When the Genesis came out Sega had brought (and created) western studios back as well as bringing in game styles that would appeal to a lot of the audience the NES was never able to attract and that NEC let slip through their fingers due to incompetence.

 

 

Again, no one was clamoring for a 7800 at that time, so I don't consider your "logical" assumption a sound one. If you were around and active at that time in the US, you knew what other young people wanted. It was basically NES with a little bit of SMS thrown in when they showcased something impressive (like Phantasy Star, which had some pretty compelling commercials). There was no big push behind the 7800 at any point. Sega/Tonka at least was pushing the system hard. Both the NES and SMS had computer-style games, and again, libraries that were far larger and were far more impressive than anything Atari could come up with for the 7800. Sure, it was an alternative, and I seem to recall it being a lower cost system with lower cost games (though I don't recall that being the case for the entire production run), but that wouldn't be enough to make up for the difference in mindshare in magazine coverage, TV commercials and other advertising, and the general lack of unique/interesting games. Also, the name "Atari" lost a lot of cache post Crash. Nintendo was where it was at by then, and Sega certainly had no pre-Crash baggage to deal with.

Atari was pushing three systems at the time, the 7800, XEGS, and 2600, as well as the XL/XE and ST computers (and let's not forget the issues with the 5200 that they never satisfactorily addressed--again, BAGGAGE). That was a lot of distraction for a company with diminishing resources, baggage from the Crash, and "upstart" competitors who were coming in hot and heavy with more advanced seeming, "next level" games and must-haves. 

[Zoyous]

52 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

That's a very small percentage of what was avaaialble that your stretching to make the generalization that the SMS had more coverage when that's hard to prove. But I also said it may depend on the area you were in as medium and smallr citieis and rural areas I have rarely seen SMS related content unless it was in larger cities and metropolitan areas. Of course, coverage doesn't equal sales either, and the biggest coverage for the SMS I've seen is 89-discontinuation which would again place the issue about sales between the two on the SMS performance from 86-89, and that's the missing info that is needed to settle the argument.

Really? What other video game magazines were there in North America in the late 80s? GamePro... what else? EGP was the first national video game magazine after the crash, it ran for four issues and then became EGM. It doesn't matter what city you were in, it's not like smaller towns had their own selection of gaming magazines. It's not hard to prove how much coverage each system received, it's simply a matter of page count. Same with retailer catalogs and ad flyers.

 

But I'll say again, if you're serious about a well-sourced book, you should be speaking to people from Atari and Sega of America. They're still around and it's not impossible to get in touch with them. You could track down Toys R Us, Sears, JC Penny, Target, etc. managers who drew up the planograms for allocating shelf space. You could track down the editors and writers of EGM, GamePlayers, GamePro, VG&CE, Nintendo Power, Sega Visions, etc.

 

Quote

This seems to be more about feelings than anything else, like I said a person alienated by an NES, the few who would buy a home console would likely logically buy a 7800 than a SMS, because it would have progression of those older favorite titles, plus a few Computer style games (which is where most of the alienated audience was if they were still playing games), and articles from earlier in their loves reflect this as Atari was the "familiar console" as they say.

Okay, this is purely your opinion and speculation... it's valid in that way, but just anecdotal. So if you want anecdotes... I'm just the kind of person you're speaking of, and I had started in gaming with a 2600. In '87 I was a 13-year-old, excited about all three systems and considered carefully which one to get. Yeah, the 7800 was a consideration because of a warm feeling about Atari. It had backward compatibility, but I didn't need that because I still had the 2600. But I could see that its games were somewhat outdated in comparison (in fact many were already four years old at that point... a long time in that era of games!). I wanted the newest games, even ports of 4 or 5 year old games seemed too old to spend my limited budget on. For example, the NES and SMS used the exact font that was used in arcade games (yes, I was nerdy enough to notice and care about such things). Furthermore, I knew Sega had one hit after another in the arcades at that time and those would likely be coming only to the SMS. Hang-On, Enduro Racer, Shinobi, Out Run, After Burner... those games were big hits of '86-87 and something like Food Fight wasn't a big deal anymore at that point. That's what influenced my decision to get an SMS. I had about a dozen classmates with an NES, three with an SMS, and didn't happen to know anyone with a 7800. Was I in a major metropolitan area? Well... Nashville TN at the time was maybe 500,000 people. A medium-sized city. Toys R Us had an entire aisle of NES games, a half-aisle of SMS games, and the remaining half divided among 7800, 2600, and INTV games, with kiosks for both NES and SMS.

So this is basically a choice for you to consider... if you're going to go the route of anecdotal, oral history, you should embrace that and talk to a lot of people. But don't try and express that this is factual. Just because it seems logical to you, basically each separate community is its own little echo chamber. Ask around and see if my recollection squares with others who were around at the time. But if you want authoritative accounts, talk to the business people of that era.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Zoyous

[Leeroy ST]

44 minutes ago, Zoyous said:

Okay, this is purely your opinion and speculation... it's valid in that way, but just anecdotal

I don't know what your point is, Bill is the oine that went the anecdotal route. I was basing my logic on the nationwide marketshare articles that always had Atari in second and who had write ins from gamers who were almost always tlaking about the NES outside the few times they didn't which overwhelmingly brought up Atari and not Sega.

 

1 hour ago, ubersaurus said:

There are a few early game history books out there that do note the data gaps where they exist. No one is surprised by them. I suggest you look into them, there’s no shortage of game history books. https://thehistoryofhowweplay.wordpress.com/2020/08/27/the-video-game-history-booklist/
 

Incidentally I have also never come across any evidence that any 7800s made it to stores in 1984. Far as I can tell the rollout was suspended when GCC, Atari Corp and Warner got into their tiff over who pays GCC.

Um? The point of this book is to actually make as accurate of a book as possible, unlike the others which are either missing way too much info and filling the gap with viewpoints of bias or rumored/wom statements that may or may not have footing.

 

59 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

.It was basically NES with a little bit of SMS thrown in when they showcased something impressive (like Phantasy Star, which had some pretty compelling commercials). 

But this is the probl,e you think PHantasy Star looked impressive but many people didn't. Phantasy Star wasn't even a major drive for the console in NA when it released. It also released at the tail end of 1988 going into 1989 with a late NOV release date. This once again brings up my previous point that some of the games often brought up did not release when they had to and released closer to when the SMS sales cratered. But in this case it's even worse because you're talking about a JRPG which historically never did well during the 80's.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Again, no one was clamoring for a 7800 at that time, 

And no one was clamoring (why use that word?) for a SMS either. When it's flipped the other way it's peanuts and it doesn't matter, but if Atari is ahead everyone has to change rules and make a big deal out of it which always baffled me with this conversation.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Both the NES and SMS had computer-style games, 

Not the type that attracted that alienated userbase that were on the computers at the time, Genesis would eventually get enough of those type of games to drag them out but not the SMS and certainly not the NES. The demographic vacuum of the time is way to obvious to have a debate over it clearly existed. 7800 got a small amount of that but it didn't excel enough to bring in enough to be a worthy contender, while Sega would eventually manage that with their sucessor, at least for a time until they started making mistakes hurting their marketshare but that's another story.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

but that wouldn't be enough to make up for the difference in mindshare in magazine coverage, TV commercials and other advertising, and the general lack of unique/interesting games. Also, the name "Atari" lost a lot of cache post Crash. Nintendo was where it was at by then, and Sega certainly had no pre-Crash baggage to deal with.

 

 

This is why you are having a hard time beliving the 7800 sold, because you are assuming that Sega had more mindshare and that their commericals to you were more impressive, but if Sega actually had proven a significant mindshare difference to the audience surely there wouldn't be a SMS/7800 sales argument because there would be a much larger sales gap and that didn't happen (In NA). The Crash was also an industry one, not a consumer one, despite fauz history people were still buying games during "the crash" and after "the crash" Atari sold 1 million consoles in the "lowest profitable year in gaming" since the boom being in 1985 and there were companies eyeing on releasing consoles during that time, because the market was still there and it was money on the table.

 

I don't see why a consumer would not buy Atari because of the "crash" unless they were scared off by some of the more hyperbolic news articles about it, people were going out and buying thiose bargin bin prices (which of course mean less profit for the companies themselves) and Atari came out with a new 2600 variation and a new super console (comparatively) that were both cheap as balls with cheap games with new and old favorites and BC. 

 

At the time of the NES dominating expcially in late 87 into 88, the two choice of Sega and Atari brand name did matter, as well as price, and considering how the SMS was didtributed, what EARLIER games came out, and the box set designs, I can't see there being much of a reason for ex-Atari/Coleco/Mattel fans to jump on an SMS if they didn't want the NES.

 

If you have to wait 2+ years for games like Phantasy Star 1 for the system to start becoming appealing than it makes even less sense, In NA.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Atari was pushing three systems at the time, the 7800, XEGS, and 2600, as well as the XL/XE and ST computers (and let's not forget the issues with the 5200 that they never satisfactorily addressed--again, BAGGAGE). That was a lot of distraction for a company with diminishing resources, baggage from the Crash, and "upstart" competitors who were coming in hot and heavy with more advanced seeming, "next level" games and must-haves. 

Firstly, Sega has experience with multiple pots as well. But this revisionist "crash baggage" is a new thing I've never heard before because it doesn't really exist for consumers. At best it hurt Atari's earlier retail presense but the SMS didn't have much of one early on itself.

 

Diminishing resources doesn't really apply after the first years as the 7800 did make money, the 2600 jr. did make money, and the ST was taking off, that's where the belief that Jack saved Atari came from, they actually had more resources later on (until mistakes would screw that up) You're basically assuming Atari was near bankruptcy across the entireity of the 7800's life which doesn't make sense. The "next-level" games is also a common biased myth, you can comparate the types of games Atari went for to the NES but acting like we never saw those types of games before the NES chose to feature is false.

 

Again if the SMS had such must haves, the sales should have never been close. This seems purely an emotional argument instead of looking at the environment from the nationwide launch of both the 7800/sms in 1988.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

 XEGS, 

One could argue mentioning the XE Game System throttles your argumenet as it was a console based on an aging 8-bit lineup, though new exciting games were still being made for it, that costed more than all the other consoles, coming out over a year late, with few original games at launch, and was touted by Atari and the press as a powerhouse (though pretty sure the SMS had it graphically beat) yet it sold out it's entire introductionary shipment and continued to sell well according to Compute! magazine, and Atari having two other consoles (4 systems if we include the ST and the 8-bit computer line) running in parallel (5 systems by 89 with the Lynx)

 

That performance doesn't make much sense for a company that as you say (and I never heard anywhere else) suffered from "crash baggage" and "non-high-level games", if anything it shows that not only the brand is strong but the games have staying power. Quite a few of games compatible with XEGS match the "next-level" NES games you bring up more than the 7800 does btw.

[Leeroy ST]

Slight slant here, but Google has really nerfed google newspapers. The same search terms don't pull up the same things they did some years ago, sometimes often giving you know results at all, which may or may not have been done intentionally making things difficult to find. They also disabled some of the old links that have been sitting around sites and forums for years, only some work, and some will jsut crash despite the original google newspapers article being in exsitence.

 

That and the removal of the original "archive" setting you can select on the google news tab (which they changed to not actually search for archives years ag0) has resulted in tons of lost information, including the spitting distance rivalry between the VCS and Fairchild which I knew I should of saved years ago but though the link would still work ugh.

 

Man that's a lot of gaming history down the tubes, and wayback machine never archived the google newspaper links so that's just a big fat freaking headache. 

[youxia]

I'm having a strange deja vu watching this thread unfold....

[Zoyous]

7 minutes ago, youxia said:

I'm having a strange deja vu watching this thread unfold....

Maybe because this forum is the only place on the internet you'll find people who believe the 7800 outsold the Sega Master System? ?

[mr_me]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

That's a very small percentage of what was avaaialble that your stretching to make the generalization that the SMS had more coverage when that's hard to prove. But I also said it may depend on the area you were in as medium and smallr citieis and rural areas I have rarely seen SMS related content unless it was in larger cities and metropolitan areas. Of course, coverage doesn't equal sales either, and the biggest coverage for the SMS I've seen is 89-discontinuation which would again place the issue about sales between the two on the SMS performance from 86-89, and that's the missing info that is needed to settle the argument.

 

Or any 7800 sales post 1988 article as I have some stuff that may corroborate it's performance if those exist, but I'm starting to think that unless someone here has new information I may have to change the format of this part of the book. Mention both arguments and the evidence of each but then mention that there's too much missing infoormation to make a concrete conclusion.

 

Sadly I have a feeling I'm going to be doing something like that a lot for the 70's-late 80's time frame of video game history. But no one said it would be easy.

If you're talking about US sales, just call it a tie.  Nobody cares.

[Lost Dragon]

On 8/26/2020 at 12:45 AM, Leeroy ST said:

Anyone got any info on this?

If your looking for Global figures on both the 7800 and Master System in the UK, i could pass on some claims from various press back in the day, but  i would direct you to a comment a made in another old thread i necrobumped the other day:

 

 

 

There was a call for the  UK Games industry to dig deep and pay for proper, independent market research and there to be  an independent audit body, which could monitor distribution numbers and validate actual sales figures. 

 

People were having to take manufacturing claims on good faith. 

 

 

Since this never came about, any figures issued to the press by Sega and Atari would have to be presented in the context they were not independently verified. 

[Lost Dragon]

On 8/27/2020 at 5:35 AM, Mitch said:

The 7800 wasn't released in Europe until late 1989. PAL 7800s were still being produced into 1993.

 

According to my own research, there were ~1.4 million NTSC 7800s sold, total. Possibly slightly less.

 

Mitch

Exactly, it was, along with the planned launch software, showcased in the UK and the press were told it was to replace the now cancelled release of the 5200,which it itself was to replace the aging 2600, then Bob Gleadow reports plans changed, UK getting the XE GS, 7800 limps out, leaving Atari in the bizzare situation of having the 2600-XEGS and 7800 all competing for the same market share here in the UK. 

[Leeroy ST]

52 minutes ago, Zoyous said:

Maybe because this forum is the only place on the internet you'll find people who believe the 7800 outsold the Sega Master System? ?

And all those who read the media in the 80's... hmm..

 

6 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

If your looking for Global figures on both the 7800 and Master System in the UK, i could pass on some claims from various press back in the day, but  i would direct you to a comment a made in another old thread i necrobumped the other day:

 

 

 

There was a call for the  UK Games industry to dig deep and pay for proper, independent market research and there to be  an independent audit body, which could monitor distribution numbers and validate actual sales figures. 

 

People were having to take manufacturing claims on good faith. 

 

 

Since this never came about, any figures issued to the press by Sega and Atari would have to be presented in the context they were not independently verified. 

I have some global sales, it's that I have information that can be useful for the book, but without a recent piece of 7800 sales information after spring 1988 I can corroborate them. (also an article supporting 1.5 million y end of life for SMS would also be helpful, though optional. )

[Leeroy ST]

On further inspection it seems that in spring 1988 for NA LA times has Atari at 2 million systems and the SMS at 500,000, with of course the 2 million being likely the 7800 amd XEGS together with some sprinkle of 2600.

 

Quote

Nintendo has sold 4.1 million game systems, Atari has sold 2 million systems and Sega has sold 500,000 systems.

 

That does actualy match the 1 million 7800's worldwide figure for the same time in 1988, I would assume something like 900,000~ would be NA sales of that 1 million if not more or less.

 

That would leave 1.1 million across XEGS and the 2600 more or less. The egs had sold out during the holiday in 87, and likely would have continued doing decently especially once the price cut, but of course without numbers we don't know the spllit. But we know that the rest of 1988 would be big for the 7800 as it was it's best year.

 

This would place the 7800 at a decent lead ahead of the SMS at this time as it was about to have it's best 2nd half of the year in its life. 

 

Even if we were to assume Europe and Africa/SA/Australia managed 200k that would still put the 7800 at 800,000~ pretty much guranteeing over 1 million sales for the remaining 6 months of the year, compared to 500,000 SMS in NA.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[Lost Dragon]

To save you some time, here's Darryl Still (Atari UK P. R) Q+A:

 

 

108 Stars

There are claims that at one point the Lynx outsold Game Gear in the UK. Is that true?

Darryl

I probably made those claims….not sure there was much foundation in fact, but at our peak, we would have been close I’d imagine.

108 Stars

Did the Atari 7800 sell well in Europe?

Darryl

It was well stocked by European retail. It never got the consumer traction that the 2600 did, but I remember we used to do a lot of units mail order through the catalogues and in the less affluent areas.

 

 

Things to note. 

 

1.He admits there might not of been much foundation in claims he made to Press at the time regarding Lynx outselling the Game Gear. 

 

2.In true Atari P. R Speak, he answers a question without giving any actual numbers. 

 

These are the issues your going to face going off press claims and it's why the UK badly needed an independent audit body. 

 

If you present the figures with the context they couldn't be independently verified, you've covered yourself and hopefully people will respect your honesty. 

[Lost Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

On further inspection it seems that in spring 1988 for NA LA times has Atari at 2 million systems and the SMS at 500,000, with of course the 2 million being likely the 7800 amd XEGS together with some sprinkle of 2600.

 

 

That does actualy match the 1 million 7800's worldwide figure for the same time in 1988, I would assume something like 900,000~ would be NA sales of that 1 million if not more or less.

 

That would leave 1.1 million across XEGS and the 2600 more or less. The egs had sold out during the holiday in 87, and likely would have continued doing decently especially once the price cut, but of course without numbers we don't know the spllit. But we know that the rest of 1988 would be big for the 7800 as it was it's best year.

 

This would place the 7800 at a decent lead ahead of the SMS at this time as it was about to have it's best 2nd half of the year in its life. 

 

Even if we were to assume Europe and Africa/SA/Australia managed 200k that would still put the 7800 at 800,000~ pretty much guranteeing over 1 million sales for the remaining 6 months of the year, compared to 500,000 SMS in NA.

 

 

This quote from Raze magazine at the time highlights another issue you'll find with Atari and UK press:

 

 

Atari often quotes a Mintel report that states the 7800, together with it's older brother, the 2600 accounts for around 50% of the UK Console Market'.

 

 

As far as i am aware, nobody has ever found a copy of said report and it's a pretty meaningless claim as it doesn't give a specific account of even how much of that supposed 50% market share the 7800 accounted for. 

 

 

Atari loved to be in the headlines, loathed to give specifics. 

 

[ubersaurus]

You think you could write an “unbiased” book that no one else has? Perhaps you need to read more history books. They Create Worlds is a master class in research and relaying information. And the thread creator’s comments in this thread strike me as having quite a bias to them.

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

I don't know what your point is, Bill is the oine that went the anecdotal route. I was basing my logic on the nationwide marketshare articles that always had Atari in second and who had write ins from gamers who were almost always tlaking about the NES outside the few times they didn't which overwhelmingly brought up Atari and not Sega.

 

Um? The point of this book is to actually make as accurate of a book as possible, unlike the others which are either missing way too much info and filling the gap with viewpoints of bias or rumored/wom statements that may or may not have footing.

 

But this is the probl,e you think PHantasy Star looked impressive but many people didn't. Phantasy Star wasn't even a major drive for the console in NA when it released. It also released at the tail end of 1988 going into 1989 with a late NOV release date. This once again brings up my previous point that some of the games often brought up did not release when they had to and released closer to when the SMS sales cratered. But in this case it's even worse because you're talking about a JRPG which historically never did well during the 80's.

 

And no one was clamoring (why use that word?) for a SMS either. When it's flipped the other way it's peanuts and it doesn't matter, but if Atari is ahead everyone has to change rules and make a big deal out of it which always baffled me with this conversation.

 

Not the type that attracted that alienated userbase that were on the computers at the time, Genesis would eventually get enough of those type of games to drag them out but not the SMS and certainly not the NES. The demographic vacuum of the time is way to obvious to have a debate over it clearly existed. 7800 got a small amount of that but it didn't excel enough to bring in enough to be a worthy contender, while Sega would eventually manage that with their sucessor, at least for a time until they started making mistakes hurting their marketshare but that's another story.

 

 

 

Hoo boy, where to begin here. I don't think you really know the NES and SMS libraries if you think the 7800 had more computer ports than either of those two systems. Remember, the 7800 had 59 total games. That's 59 lifetime. That's at least 250 fewer games available than the SMS and much fewer than that versus the NES. And I can't believe you're even using that as a metric. Those of us who owned C-64s weren't exactly clamoring to play those games on a console. And if people REALLY wanted to play more of those types of games on a console, surely the XEGS would have been more appealing than a 7800, no? (And it kind of makes you wonder why, if it was the ongoing success that it claimed it was, why there were so few games lifetime for the 7800, putting aside the minimal retail presence, advertising, or media coverage. It's kind of like the Jaguar in that regard, which ended up with only 50 titles and only sold a few hundred thousand units in its retail prime.)

And I used Phantasy Star as a single example of a commercial showcasing an impressive looking game on the SMS. Whether you like the game or not or JRPGs were big at the time or not (they weren't), the footage shown, with the 3D dungeons and monster, did look great. And again, nothing equivalent on the 7800. 

 

I'm going to bow out of the discussion now, because it's getting a bit silly. We've had discussions like this before, which are easy enough to search here on the AtariAge forums. While everyone acknowledges that worldwide sales of both the NES and SMS dwarf the 7800, obviously, there's always going to be some disagreement on US sales because there's just not great data. Personally, based on my being around at the time, my own analysis, and other data, I'm comfortable saying that the SMS definitely edged out the 7800 in sales in both the US and North America as a whole. By how much, I don't think we'll ever know precisely. I'm fine with that. Again, in my own work (which I'll respectfully point out is as objective as possible and published solely through mainstream publishers) I was always clear about sources used and whenever there was a lack of precise figures giving as reasonable a range as possible. That's the best anyone can really do with certain data unless they get lucky by uncovering heretofore unknown resources.