Looking for any post 1988 Atari 7800 and sourced SMS sales figures (any date) for new book.

[Leeroy ST]

9 minutes ago, ubersaurus said:

You think you could write an “unbiased” book that no one else has? Perhaps you need to read more history books. They Create Worlds is a master class in research and relaying information. And the thread creator’s comments in this thread strike me as having quite a bias to them.

Video game history is notriously bad due to shifts and manipulation in information and companies often putting out contradicting statements in PR then their often behind paywall investor releases. Not to mention those who are fanboys for lack of a better term going outside a field of no interest drawing conclusions without corroborating sources.

 

You can do a pretty good job with a source filled book, but oince ou head toward the 80's the information sources become a major issue. 

 

19 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

To save you some time, here's Darryl Still (Atari UK P. R) Q+A:

 

 

108 Stars

There are claims that at one point the Lynx outsold Game Gear in the UK. Is that true?

Darryl

I probably made those claims….not sure there was much foundation in fact, but at our peak, we would have been close I’d imagine.

108 Stars

Did the Atari 7800 sell well in Europe?

Darryl

It was well stocked by European retail. It never got the consumer traction that the 2600 did, but I remember we used to do a lot of units mail order through the catalogues and in the less affluent areas.

 

 

Things to note. 

 

1.He admits there might not of been much foundation in claims he made to Press at the time regarding Lynx outselling the Game Gear. 

 

2.In true Atari P. R Speak, he answers a question without giving any actual numbers. 

 

These are the issues your going to face going off press claims and it's why the UK badly needed an independent audit body. 

 

If you present the figures with the context they couldn't be independently verified, you've covered yourself and hopefully people will respect your honesty. 

 

Depends on what "well" in Europe means. Considering how late it was released in much of europe that's not much in the way of info.

 

 

[Lost Dragon]

For initial NES sales in UK, you'd need to see if Ron Newbold of Mattel UK is still with us.. I last saw him quoted in 1986. 

 

 

There are press claims like.. 

 

An amazing 25 million 2600s have been sold to date, one million alone in 1985, 100,000 of which CAME into the UK

 

 

Source John Cook, PCW Dec'86

 

 

This is what you can expect from UK press and its not that helpful. 

[Leeroy ST]

1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said:

 

Hoo boy, where to begin here. I don't think you really know the NES and SMS libraries if you think the 7800 had more computer ports than either of those two systems.

 

Which I nev3er said, you read what you wanted to instead of what I actually typed. I said it had more of the computer style games that would attract people to it that the other two didn't have, or arguably played better (or released earlier), I didn't say anything about "number" of games, the demographics that were alienated to the NES and the SMS came to the 7800 (in marginal numbers) for that and several other reasons you're dismissing for some reason. I never made or implied the statement that the 7800 had more "Computer style software" but the STYLE which was more attractive to those who didn't want to deal with the other two systems.

3 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

 

That's 59 lifetime. That's at least 250 fewer games available than the SMS and much fewer than that versus the NES. And I can't believe you're even using that as a metric. Those of us who owned C-64s weren't exactly clamoring to play those games on a console. 

Your bias here is unwarranted, the amount of games is irrelevant, and as I said above, wasn't even my argument, but people did BUY 7800's and they brought them for SOMETHING, SOMETHING made people want to go and buy a 7800, and for some reason you don't want to admit this fact or downplay without much of a reason.You may have owned a C64 and didn't want to p0lay certain types of games on the 7800 over the NES, and some factually did, because the console sold on store selves to buyers who gave paper cash to a cashier. You're acting like when I say that people may have preferred the 7800 for a certain type of games I'm talking millions of people, I'm not, 7800 and SMS has marginal installbases, but you are dimissing the reasoning people brought the consoles.

 

6 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

 

(And it kind of makes you wonder why, if it was the ongoing success that it claimed it was, why there were so few games lifetime for the 7800, putting aside the minimal retail presence, advertising, or media coverage.)

Who or what claimed it was an "ongoing" success? What are you talking about? 

 

8 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

And I used Phantasy Star as a single example of a commercial showcasing an impressive looking game on the SMS. Whether you like the game or not or JRPGs were big at the time or not (they weren't), the footage shown, with the 3D dungeons and monster, did look great. And again, nothing equivalent on the 7800. 

 

To you, not the majority of gamers, which is why the SMS had similar sales to the 7800 a long distance from the NES. Again, this is an emotional argument that dismisses viewpoiints and that's been your positions since the start. One could say F18hornet looked more impressive than Phantasy Star to a certain type of gamer, this is a pointless subjective argument where the objective results is neither consoles really put out anything to bring any significant attention away from the NES or bring a significant amount of computer players back to console.

 

10 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I'm going to bow out of the discussion now, because it's getting a bit silly. 

It's silly because you decided to create your own reality of what a post said, dismisses alternitive points of view because you beleived your subjective opinion of a poor selling game is somehwo an example of why X system should sell more than Y system which doesn't make much sense.  Along with putting words in my mouth I never said. Niuce cop-out though.

 

11 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Personally, based on my being around at the time, my own analysis, and other data, I'm comfortable saying that the SMS definitely edged out the 7800 in sales in both the US and North America as a whole.

 

You don't have any data and then claim you do. The reason why this thread is even here is because data is missing and that you are filling in the gap with poor alternatives to actual evidence.

 

From the actual data we have, is that the 1988 Atari sold 1 million consoles WW of the 7800, in 1988 same time LA times put out an article saying that Atari sold 2 million systems, this matches the previous statement, while the SMS sold 500,000, I don't see any data showing that the SMS somehow caugh up to the 7800 with 500,000 sales and then inched ahead from there between 1988-1992 so based on the data it seems that it would be true, plus marketshare articles that it's likely that the 7800 may have stayed ahead until they both died, but of course nothing concerte. We do not have any DATA that would give us the opposite opinion despite you using the term "data" over and over.

 

You may be right, but we don't have the information to make that claim, we only have some objective sources that indicate the possibility of the 7800 being ahead but we have too many years missing to make that concrete but it's the best data we have.

 

Now if we find some data after 1988 as I said way earlier, there are other sources that may have value that can clarify this. But even in 2020 it seems there hasn't been any new articles or publishings found so we'll just have to take things as is and mention the missing data accordingly.

[Leeroy ST]

8 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

For initial NES sales in UK, you'd need to see if Ron Newbold of Mattel UK is still with us.. I last saw him quoted in 1986. 

 

 

There are press claims like.. 

 

An amazing 25 million 2600s have been sold to date, one million alone in 1985, 100,000 of which CAME into the UK

 

 

Source John Cook, PCW Dec'86

 

 

This is what you can expect from UK press and its not that helpful. 

I wonder what their definition of "came" is because I've seen that used for other products in the UK, and the number asssociated with "came" meant there were deliveries to a UK distribution center that send out to other regions so wouldn't technically count as UK sales.

 

If they actually mean 100k 2600's shipped to the UK then is that from 1985 or is that from the 25 million sold to date?

[Lost Dragon]

10 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

 

Hoo boy, where to begin here. I don't think you really know the NES and SMS libraries if you think the 7800 had more computer ports than either of those two systems. Remember, the 7800 had 59 total games. That's 59 lifetime. That's at least 250 fewer games available than the SMS and much fewer than that versus the NES. And I can't believe you're even using that as a metric. Those of us who owned C-64s weren't exactly clamoring to play those games on a console. And if people REALLY wanted to play more of those types of games on a console, surely the XEGS would have been more appealing than a 7800, no? (And it kind of makes you wonder why, if it was the ongoing success that it claimed it was, why there were so few games lifetime for the 7800, putting aside the minimal retail presence, advertising, or media coverage. It's kind of like the Jaguar in that regard, which ended up with only 50 titles and only sold a few hundred thousand units in its retail prime.)

And I used Phantasy Star as a single example of a commercial showcasing an impressive looking game on the SMS. Whether you like the game or not or JRPGs were big at the time or not (they weren't), the footage shown, with the 3D dungeons and monster, did look great. And again, nothing equivalent on the 7800. 

 

I'm going to bow out of the discussion now, because it's getting a bit silly. We've had discussions like this before, which are easy enough to search here on the AtariAge forums. While everyone acknowledges that worldwide sales of both the NES and SMS dwarf the 7800, obviously, there's always going to be some disagreement on US sales because there's just not great data. Personally, based on my being around at the time, my own analysis, and other data, I'm comfortable saying that the SMS definitely edged out the 7800 in sales in both the US and North America as a whole. By how much, I don't think we'll ever know precisely. I'm fine with that. Again, in my own work (which I'll respectfully point out is as objective as possible and published solely through mainstream publishers) I was always clear about sources used and whenever there was a lack of precise figures giving as reasonable a range as possible. That's the best anyone can really do with certain data unless they get lucky by uncovering heretofore unknown resources.

Looking at just the Master System, computer ports...

 

Things like.. 

 

 

Alien 3

Back To The Future II and III

Cal Games

Chuck Rock I and II

James Pond II

Lemmings

Populous

Indy Jones:Action Game

Speedball and Speedball Ii

Spy Vs Spy

Wolfchild

World Games 

W. C. leaderboard

Xenon Ii

 

 

NES had.. 

 

Defender Of The Crown

Supremacy/Overlord. 

 

7800 was positively starved by comparison. 

[Lost Dragon]

1 minute ago, Leeroy ST said:

I wonder what their definition of "came" is because I've seen that used for other products in the UK, and the number asssociated with "came" meant there were deliveries to a UK distribution center that send out to other regions so wouldn't technically count as UK sales.

 

If they actually mean 100k 2600's shipped to the UK then is that from 1985 or is that from the 25 million sold to date?

This is the point i am making. 

 

UK Press is too vague, Atari UK folk if you can find them, aren't able to give figures, let alone independently verified ones. 

 

 

Many have tried over the years to try and get a credible figure on system sales. 

 

Often end up reporting speculated sales as fact, as it's so difficult to atain actual, credible numbers for lifetime sales on a global scale. 

[Zoyous]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

And all those who read the media in the 80's... hmm..

I read the media in the 80s and I'm still reading media from the 80s. I'm sitting here holding the magazines and you're complaining that some Google links have disappeared. So... you keep accusing others of revisionist history, but crafting a revisionist narrative seems to be your aim. If you're going to attempt to say that the 7800, with a small library packaged in many cases in black-and-white cardboard boxes, minimal coverage in the press, minimal promotion, minimal retail shelf space, even less third-party developer support, etc. was somehow outselling the Master System which had the edge in all of those aspects, the burden of proof is on you and you'll have to come up with something more convincing than press releases. Are you, or are you not, going to interview any of the business people of the era?

[Torr]

You're amazing dude.

 

Just write whatever it is you WANT to write.

 

You come here asking for advice and input, and then refute everything that's been offered, because it's contrary to what you want to write.

 

You clearly have an agenda, and you thought, this being an ATARI fan site, we'd all jump on board and agree with everything you claim, just because it's painting Atari in a positive light.

 

We ARE Atari fans, but we're not blind to reality.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Torr

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, Lost Dragon said:

Looking at just the Master System, computer ports...

 

NES had.. 

 

Defender Of The Crown

Supremacy/Overlord. 

 

7800 was positively starved by comparison. 

 

All three had computer ports (or "computer style" games as the OP clarified), but actually, the NES (and SMS) had tons more than what you listed. The NES alone had several RPG and adventure game ports, e.g., Wizardry, Ultima, Pool of Radiance, Might and Magic, Uninvited, etc. There were of course all the password save games, as well as some with battery backups. Lots of "computer style" parity there. The SMS had its fair share of sophisticated titles as well, with the aforementioned Phantasy Star, Ultima, King's Quest, etc. The 7800 really lacked in the sophistication department, but again with such an anemic library and lack of top developer/publisher support (for the most part), that's not too surprising. It was only later in its commercial lifespan that it got a handful of games like Midnight Mutants that could reasonably be somewhat compared to the scope of games you got on the other two, but by then it was all too late. Of course, both the NES and SMS benefited greatly from being previously established in Japan before making it over here. Ironically, as we know, the 7800 pretty much lost almost two years to get the same kind of momentum because it never launched in 1984 like it was supposed to. It's delays or late starts like that that obviously doomed many systems (the Enterprise 64 and 3DO are two that immediately come to mind).

[mr_me]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

On further inspection it seems that in spring 1988 for NA LA times has Atari at 2 million systems and the SMS at 500,000, with of course the 2 million being likely the 7800 amd XEGS together with some sprinkle of 2600.

 

 

That does actualy match the 1 million 7800's worldwide figure for the same time in 1988, I would assume something like 900,000~ would be NA sales of that 1 million if not more or less.

 

That would leave 1.1 million across XEGS and the 2600 more or less. The egs had sold out during the holiday in 87, and likely would have continued doing decently especially once the price cut, but of course without numbers we don't know the spllit. But we know that the rest of 1988 would be big for the 7800 as it was it's best year.

 

This would place the 7800 at a decent lead ahead of the SMS at this time as it was about to have it's best 2nd half of the year in its life. 

 

Even if we were to assume Europe and Africa/SA/Australia managed 200k that would still put the 7800 at 800,000~ pretty much guranteeing over 1 million sales for the remaining 6 months of the year, compared to 500,000 SMS in NA.

 

 

Here's that article.  So the two million sales is for 1986, 1987, and half of 1988.  Notice it says that "The 2600 remains Atari’s best-selling model".  We know the 2600 was selling in the millions after 1985, so it could have been a sprinkle of atari 7800.  But we also know for a fact that close to half a million were sold in 1986-87 in the US alone and another 415k in 1988.  So add the rest of the world you might have your million by mid 1988.  But after 1988 atari 7800 sales dropped off.  Insignificant by 1990.

 

"How popular are video games? Last year, Nintendo alone had sales of $750 million--more than Coleco did, when sales of its Cabbage Patch Kid stuffed doll peaked at $600 million in 1984. Nintendo accounted for 70% of video games sales last year, followed by Atari, with about 20%, and Sega of America, with 10%.

 

Although it is No. 2, Atari likes to point out that more people own Atari video game systems than any other. That is because it sold 28 million video game systems, mostly Atari 2600s, during the earlier boom. The 2600 remains Atari’s best-selling model. But since the second video boom took off 2 1/2 years ago, Nintendo has sold 4.1 million game systems, Atari has sold 2 million systems and Sega has sold 500,000 systems.

 

The best-selling video games are Legend of Zelda and Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out. Those Nintendo games have sold more than 1 million copies each. Frequently mentioned by retailers as leading sellers are Konami’s Major League Baseball and two games featuring the Air Force’s F-14 fighter jet: After Burner by Sega of America and Top Gun by MCA’s LJN Toys unit.

 

New video game system owners usually buy four to six games during the first year of ownership, but fewer each year after that. Sega estimates that veteran video game players purchase three to five games yearly. This year, Americans will buy 6.9 million video game systems and 40 million games, according to Nintendo.

 

..."

[Lost Dragon]

37 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

 

All three had computer ports (or "computer style" games as the OP clarified), but actually, the NES (and SMS) had tons more than what you listed. The NES alone had several RPG and adventure game ports, e.g., Wizardry, Ultima, Pool of Radiance, Might and Magic, Uninvited, etc. There were of course all the password save games, as well as some with battery backups. Lots of "computer style" parity there. The SMS had its fair share of sophisticated titles as well, with the aforementioned Phantasy Star, Ultima, King's Quest, etc. The 7800 really lacked in the sophistication department, but again with such an anemic library and lack of top developer/publisher support (for the most part), that's not too surprising. It was only later in its commercial lifespan that it got a handful of games like Midnight Mutants that could reasonably be somewhat compared to the scope of games you got on the other two, but by then it was all too late. Of course, both the NES and SMS benefited greatly from being previously established in Japan before making it over here. Ironically, as we know, the 7800 pretty much lost almost two years to get the same kind of momentum because it never launched in 1984 like it was supposed to. It's delays or late starts like that that obviously doomed many systems (the Enterprise 64 and 3DO are two that immediately come to mind).

Only ever dabbled with the NES, so listed those that sprang to mind and MS ones were off top of my head, but thought i would highlight a few to raise awareness to the thread creator just how far behind the 7800 was in this regard. 

 

 

? Think I'm going to bow out now, advice and pointers have been suggested on what to look for. 

[Leeroy ST]

4 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

Looking at just the Master System, computer ports...

 

Things like.. 

 

 

Alien 3

Back To The Future II and III

Cal Games

Chuck Rock I and II

James Pond II

Lemmings

Populous

Indy Jones:Action Game

Speedball and Speedball Ii

Spy Vs Spy

Wolfchild

World Games 

W. C. leaderboard

Xenon Ii

 

 

NES had.. 

 

Defender Of The Crown

Supremacy/Overlord. 

 

7800 was positively starved by comparison. 

Which I never said.so this is pointless

[Leeroy ST]

2 hours ago, mr_me said:

Here's that article.  So the two million sales is for 1986, 1987, and half of 1988.  Notice it says that "The 2600 remains Atari’s best-selling model".  We know the 2600 was selling in the millions after 1985, so it could have been a sprinkle of atari 7800.  But we also know for a fact that close to half a million were sold in 1986-87 in the US alone and another 415k in 1988.  So add the rest of the world you might have your million by mid 1988.  But after 1988 atari 7800 sales dropped off.  Insignificant by 1990.

 

"How popular are video games? Last year, Nintendo alone had sales of $750 million--more than Coleco did, when sales of its Cabbage Patch Kid stuffed doll peaked at $600 million in 1984. Nintendo accounted for 70% of video games sales last year, followed by Atari, with about 20%, and Sega of America, with 10%.

 

Although it is No. 2, Atari likes to point out that more people own Atari video game systems than any other. That is because it sold 28 million video game systems, mostly Atari 2600s, during the earlier boom. The 2600 remains Atari’s best-selling model. But since the second video boom took off 2 1/2 years ago, Nintendo has sold 4.1 million game systems, Atari has sold 2 million systems and Sega has sold 500,000 systems.

 

The best-selling video games are Legend of Zelda and Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out. Those Nintendo games have sold more than 1 million copies each. Frequently mentioned by retailers as leading sellers are Konami’s Major League Baseball and two games featuring the Air Force’s F-14 fighter jet: After Burner by Sega of America and Top Gun by MCA’s LJN Toys unit.

 

New video game system owners usually buy four to six games during the first year of ownership, but fewer each year after that. Sega estimates that veteran video game players purchase three to five games yearly. This year, Americans will buy 6.9 million video game systems and 40 million games, according to Nintendo.

 

..."

Its very clear the 2600 mention is talking about totals based on the nintendo example alone. Not that the 2600 was number one since 1986. 

 

3 hours ago, Torr said:

You're amazing dude.

 

Just write whatever it is you WANT to write.

 

You come here asking for advice and input, and then refute everything that's been offered, because it's contrary to what you want to write.

 

You clearly have an agenda, and you thought, this being an ATARI fan site, we'd all jump on board and agree with everything you claim, just because it's painting Atari in a positive light.

 

We ARE Atari fans, but we're not blind to reality.

One thing about this board sometimes is regular user being addressed for correction usually result in the other user being attacked.

 

Your post is only here because you took bills misunderstanding as truth mixing up what I actually meant. Instead you attack me based on the wrong context. I haven't pushed any agenda I use the data we have. I never mention for example, number of titles. Not once.

[Leeroy ST]

2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

 

All three had computer ports (or "computer style" games as the OP clarified), but actually, the NES (and SMS) had tons more than what you listed. The NES alone had several RPG and adventure game ports, e.g., Wizardry, Ultima, Pool of Radiance, Might and Magic, Uninvited, etc. There were of course all the password save games, as well as some with battery backups. Lots of "computer style" parity there. The SMS had its fair share of sophisticated titles as well, with the aforementioned Phantasy Star, Ultima, King's Quest, etc. The 7800 really lacked in the sophistication department, but again with such an anemic library and lack of top developer/publisher support (for the most part), that's not too surprising. It was only later in its commercial lifespan that it got a handful of games like Midnight Mutants that could reasonably be somewhat compared to the scope of games you got on the other two, but by then it was all too late. Of course, both the NES and SMS benefited greatly from being previously established in Japan before making it over here. Ironically, as we know, the 7800 pretty much lost almost two years to get the same kind of momentum because it never launched in 1984 like it was supposed to. It's delays or late starts like that that obviously doomed many systems (the Enterprise 64 and 3DO are two that immediately come to mind).

yonce.ypu really are being dense, and the omission of the other points I made show this.

 

If you have an Xbox 360 and ps3 and both have a Jrpgs, yes the 360 has the Jrpgs but is most of the audience for it goimg to buy a 360? No.

 

Same comparison, people will got to the 7800 more for those types of games than the New, including exclusive ones. The genesis success shows a lack of interest in NES despite it having overlapping games.

[mr_me]

So how much did the atari 2600 outsell the atari 7800 in the late 1980s.  According to newspaper articles, the atari 2600 was at 20M units by sept 1986.  And by feb 1989 was at 24M units.  That's 4M atari 2600 in a 2.5 year stretch during the heyday of the atari 7800.  It was much cheaper, however.  Similarly, atari 7800 were $20 to $40 cheaper than the SMS.

Edited August 29, 2020 by mr_me

[KidGameR186496]

Right now, I'm tired but tomorrow I can try to dig two magazine scans that shows just how poorly the Jaguar sold in Japan. If you're going to do a book about Atari, I would also recommend checking out the MASSIVE archive of the Japanese Game Machine magazine by searching onitama.tv on Google.

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

yonce.ypu really are being dense, and the omission of the other points I made show this.

 

If you have an Xbox 360 and ps3 and both have a Jrpgs, yes the 360 has the Jrpgs but is most of the audience for it goimg to buy a 360? No.

 

Same comparison, people will got to the 7800 more for those types of games than the New, including exclusive ones. The genesis success shows a lack of interest in NES despite it having overlapping games.

My comment wasn't directed at you as my quote showed nor do I have any clue what you tried to write above.

[Lost Dragon]

People on this site have a wealth of advice experience and material that can be an asset to any inspiring writers. 

 

Calling those who have a proven track record in the field of writing games related books, 'dense" is not going to help your cause. 

 

You might want to look into some of the work Bill has done, before going any further. 

 

 

 

Bill Loguidice is a Founder and Managing Director for Armchair Arcade and fullSTEAMahead365, as well as a critically acclaimed technology author and journalist.  He is also the co-founder of creative services firm, Armchair Creative Services, and a noted videogame and computer historian and subject matter expert.

Bill is the author of the following major books: Fortnite For Dummies (2019, Wiley), Atari Flashback: The Essential Companion (2017, Prima Games),  My Xbox One (2014, Que Publishing), Vintage Game Consoles: An Inside Look at Apple, Atari, Commodore, Nintendo, and the Greatest Gaming Platforms of All Time (2014, Focal Press/Taylor & Francis Group), CoCo: The Colorful History of Tandy’s Underdog Computer (2013, CRC Press/Taylor & Francis Group), My PlayStation Vita (2012, Que Publishing), My Xbox: Xbox 360, Kinect, and Xbox LIVE (2012, Que Publishing), Motorola ATRIX For Dummies (2011, Wiley), Wii Fitness For Dummies (2010, Wiley; making use of his AFTA personal training certification), and Vintage Games: An Insider Look at the History of Grand Theft Auto, Super Mario and the Most Influential Games of All Time (2009, Focal Press; which received an Italian translation).

Bill was also a writer and producer on the 2015 feature film documentary on the history of videogames entitled, Gameplay: The Story of the Videogame Revolution, and is hard at work on other exciting books, articles, and creative projects.

 

This has turned into something i would expect to see on Dragon's Den. 

 

You've come here with an interesting pitch, asking for help and now your loosing Dragon's... 

 

 

I'm out. 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Lost Dragon

[youxia]

14 hours ago, Zoyous said:

Maybe because this forum is the only place on the internet you'll find people who believe the 7800 outsold the Sega Master System? ?

That nagging deja vu is down to the fact it seems to be just one person

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

15 hours ago, KidGameR186496 said:

Right now, I'm tired but tomorrow I can try to dig two magazine scans that shows just how poorly the Jaguar sold in Japan. If you're going to do a book about Atari, I would also recommend checking out the MASSIVE archive of the Japanese Game Machine magazine by searching onitama.tv on Google.

What does this have to do with the thread?

 

9 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

People on this site have a wealth of advice experience and material that can be an asset to any inspiring writers. 

 

Calling those who have a proven track record in the field of writing games related books, 'dense" is not going to help your cause. 

 

You might want to look into some of the work Bill has done, before going any further. 

 

 

 

Bill Loguidice is a Founder and Managing Director for Armchair Arcade and fullSTEAMahead365, as well as a critically acclaimed technology author and journalist.  He is also the co-founder of creative services firm, Armchair Creative Services, and a noted videogame and computer historian and subject matter expert.

 

 

This cop-out doesn't work, you just like the other poster, jumped in here thinking that bills statement (putting words in my mouth) of what I meant by computer-style games, somehow meant that I said there was "more" I never said the 7800 wasn't "Behind in number" I said that the 7800 attracted people who were more interested in these style of games.

 

I already made this clarification to you BEFORE and you IGNORED IT.

 

16 hours ago, mr_me said:

So how much did the atari 2600 outsell the atari 7800 in the late 1980s.  According to newspaper articles, the atari 2600 was at 20M units by sept 1986.  And by feb 1989 was at 24M units.  That's 4M atari 2600 in a 2.5 year stretch during the heyday of the atari 7800.  It was much cheaper, however.  Similarly, atari 7800 were $20 to $40 cheaper than the SMS.

 

We don't need to complicate it that way, we know that the Atari 7800 sold 1 million in 1988 and we know that near all of that was NA and until the end of the year and 1989 the 7800 wouldn't expand it's already limited international release so even if we broke it down and said 700k 7800, 1.1 million 2600's (which is unlikely), and 200k XEGS, which low balls the 7800 (300k international is a large stretch) and lowballs the XEGS and gives arguably too much to the 2600, that's still more 7800's than SMS, before the best 6 months in the 7800's life span starts.

 

Of course, this whole conversation was due to bill wanting for some reason to bring down the 7800 and not really related to the thread question int he first place, buit I may as well put out the DATA we have on sales. Of course we are missing a lot that may change things but until we find that data we have to work with what we have.

 

18 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

 

It was only later in its commercial lifespan that it got a handful of games like Midnight Mutants that could reasonably be somewhat compared to the scope of games you got on the other two, but by then it was all too late. Of course, both the NES and SMS benefited greatly from being previously established in Japan before making it over here. Ironically, as we know, the 7800 pretty much lost almost two years to get the same kind of momentum because it never launched in 1984 like it was supposed to. It's delays or late starts like that that obviously doomed many systems (the Enterprise 64 and 3DO are two that immediately come to mind).

This is nothing but emotional preaching of what you want to believe instead of basing your thoughts on the data, and this wouldn't be too much of an issue if you didn't derail the thread with this post from your first response to the thread:

 

Quote

It's certainly possible that the two systems had similar console sales, but being around at the time, looking at the libraries, looking at what was and wasn't in major retail outlets, looking at advertising, etc., it sure seemed like the 7800 was a firm third in comparison to Sega and Nintendo's console presence. That's why I'm particularly skeptical of 7800 claims that are not backed by truly solid evidence. Of course, again, we don't REALLY have great data for Sega/Tonka in the US either.

What's funny is not only did you later cause a bigger mess but misreading what I wrote by inserting your own words in (Never used any argument about the 7800 having "more qunatity" of Computer style games games, which even got some people jump in here "defending you" against something I never said) but ignored my clarification TWICE and doubled down on it. And you talk about not having much data yet won't even use the data we have. You even bring up something new that is never talked about, some sort of "post-crash baggage" that didn't exist (or at least didn't impact thema s you implied), and given that Atari had a successful at the time computer line, two multimillion selling consoles, 1 that was from the 70's, and the XEGS selling out all shipped units, that belief doesn't make much sense and seems to be something you want to believe then what actually happened. 

 

Clarifying a 3rd time, What I said is that the 7800 attracted a certain group of people to the system, although not by much considering how it and the SMS were steamrolled, and Nintendos lock on third-parties with illegal policies helped that. This group generally were those who were interested in fast-paced arcade style or computer-style games. I never said the 7800 had "more" computer-style games or that the NES didn't have "any", but the audience interested in the NES were not people who match that demographic. That's why most of what were cult or popular computer games that had ports on the NES (in NA) did not do well or in many (not all) cases, couldn't produce just passable numbers on the NES.

 

I used the 360/ps3 example because even on this forum the argument about 360 jrpg performance had littered for years, just as in many other places. Xbox 360 went all out, even got exclusive Jrpgs, even had a year head start, but that demographic had a limited interest in the 360 because that demographic wasnt pulled by that console and the 360 instead attracted a different one. It's also why the Genesis and the TG16 (to a lesser extent and only initially) pulled in a crowd of gamers that never touched the NES despite having similar games among their libraries that made the NES popular and then some.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[Leeroy ST]

On 8/28/2020 at 1:23 PM, Bill Loguidice said:

Again, no one was clamoring for a 7800 at that time, so I don't consider your "logical" assumption a sound one. If you were around and active at that time in the US, you knew what other young people wanted. It was basically NES with a little bit of SMS thrown in when they showcased something impressive (like Phantasy Star, which had some pretty compelling commercials). There was no big push behind the 7800 at any point. Sega/Tonka at least was pushing the system hard. Both the NES and SMS had computer-style games, and again, libraries that were far larger and were far more impressive than anything Atari could come up with for the 7800. Sure, it was an alternative, and I seem to recall it being a lower cost system with lower cost games (though I don't recall that being the case for the entire production run), but that wouldn't be enough to make up for the difference in mindshare in magazine coverage.

Also want to readdress this post, I did some digging and found these articles:

 

Kingsport Times-News Nov 13th, 1988

 

 

This puts the marketshare at 13.3% for Atari and 4.1% for Sega which is a pretty big gap.

 

Then there is this:

 

The Atlanta Consitution Dec 15th, 1988

 

 

This shows that Atari got 20% and Sega got 8%, which means that since the previous article they both increased  but Atari also INCREASED the lead by mid December, as they both were closing in on the end of the year 1988.

 

Then we have Tonkas statement that I found which created many questions:

 

Cincinatti Enquierer Jul 25th 1990

 

 

This indicated that sales for the SMS were dropping and impacting Tonkas sales, and the loss of distribution rights for the (now released) Genesis was hurting it's over all bottom line (as it's clear the lack of deal renewal is what Tonka means by "discontinued Sega Video Game line")

 

This is backed up by this second article during 1988 the year before:

 

Star Tribune Nov, 28th, 1988

 

 

 

As of the end of November 1988 Sega sales were flattening. This corroborates with the above article and the market share information above. It is unlikely that Sega picked up in 1989 at best it may have done similar numbers of course we don't have the data for that but this does create several questions about the SMS NA performance.

 

 

Then there is THIS TONKA statement about SALES 1 year later in 1989:

 

Star Phoenix, November 4th 1989

 

 

This is November the next year (1989) nearing the start of 1990.

 

Here Tonka says that they sold 50,000 units of Sega Master Systems in 1987, 100,000 in 1988, and EXPECTS 100,000 by the end of 1989, which this article takes place during the end of November.

 

While 1986 figures are varied, even if we use the 125k that's sometimes been thrown around and assume that they did hit 100,000 for 1989, that's 375,000 by the start of 1990, which is when some say the SMS sold 1 million in NA.

 

This doesn't make much sense because we have Tonkas own numbers in this article, and the 1988 marketshare articles + Tonkas worsening conditions brings into question how the SMS hit 1 million in NA. Maybe that involved some other countries combined?

 

Because there's 625,000 missing sales to account for before we even look at the SMS selling 1 million by 1990. In order for that to happen, they would have to sell that 625k from January 1st, to the point people claim it sold 1 million in 1990, then from there it would have to sell an additional 500k as it's rapidly dying the last two years before it's discontinuation, to reach the cited LTD of 1.5 million (not even mentiong some of the claims of 2 million)

 

So clearly something is wrong here. I also have problems finding software sales, I find vague mentions for the 7800 and we have the numbers revealed on here from curt, but nothing I can find on Sega indicates it had higher software sales either, and if anything these articlesbring that into question as well, but I can't say for sure without an article that really gives me details on NA software sales. That's another discussion.

 

But with just this data alone the SMS NA hardware sales are put into question, and it makes it a bit clearler why media kept putting SMS into third in marketshare. Now Tonka is saying that it sold less than 300k between 1987-1989 and less than 400k if we assume the 125k for 1986 is correct?

 

Where is that missing 625K?

 

Of course while this is great new info, it doesn't really help what I'm looking for with the Atari side of my OP, however, it does help the Sega sitde and throws the 1.5 million into question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[mr_me]

 

3 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

This is November the next year (1989) nearing the start of 1990.

 

Here Tonka says that they sold 50,000 units of Sega Master Systems in 1987, 100,000 in 1988, and EXPECTS 100,000 by the end of 1989, which this article takes place during the end of November

I'm not sure how you screwed this up, but it doesn't say Tonka, it says Irwin.  Irwin was the Canadian distributor for the sms.  Those are Canadian numbers.  Canada is about ten times smaller than the united states so you can estimate US numbers to be about ten times larger or more.  So no, this doesn't throw anything in to question.

 

And regarding Atari market share in the late 1980s.  As you know the Atari 2600 was still their top selling model and accounted for a large chunk of that market share.

[Torr]

Seems like we don't know what we're talking about, and you know enough to teach all of us narrow minded fools right from wrong!

So why are you still here?

Go write your book and we'll save our troll food for the next hungry one.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Torr

[Leeroy ST]

6 minutes ago, Torr said:

Seems like we don't know what we're talking about, and you know enough to teach all of us narrow minded fools right from wrong!

So why are you still here?

Go write your book and we'll save our troll food for the next hungry one.

I never implied or said this, your only here making this drive-by because of the previous miscommunication with Bill thinking I was arguing that the 780p had more PC style games then nes. You are still hooked on that and thinking im here telling people off based on something that was never said. Stop.

[Torr]

No... it started when I made the point that "The Atarian's" Mailbag Column had a letter where some kid claimed that not only he, but all his friends too, would rather come to his house and play Mario Bros. (1983) and Winter Games on his 7800 in the year of 1989 than anything released on the NES to that point. Which is laughable. Hurt my sides laughable.

And then you actually defended that letter and acted as though it could have been real. (This was in their FIRST issue mind you... how many people are sending letters to a magazine that doesn't even exist yet??)

But yeah, I'm out of troll food.

 

Enjoy alienating the small audience your book has.