BillC Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 13 hours ago, candle said: even 6502 aren't getting any smaller The standard 6502 is still being produced as both DIP40 and PLCC44 by Western Design Center, this doesn't help the Atari 8-bits since the 6502 requires extra circuitry that is included in the 6502C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 13 minutes ago, BillC said: The standard 6502 is still being produced as both DIP40 and PLCC44 by Western Design Center, this doesn't help the Atari 8-bits since the 6502 requires extra circuitry that is included in the 6502C. but you can add the original 800 circuitry back to the later 8 bit machines to use the original 6502 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: but you can add the original 800 circuitry back to the later 8 bit machines to use the original 6502 Correct! And I wonder, with today's lithography and embedded solutions, what the size reduction would be... We already know (exactly) what is needed to "halt" a std. 6502 on the 800's central CPU board... the elements are there since 1979. Again, it is just a matter of doing it right. That's all. Edited January 26, 2021 by Faicuai 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 1 minute ago, Faicuai said: Correct! And I wonder, with today's lithography and embedded solutions, what the size reduction would be... We already know (exactly) what is needed to "halt" a 6502 on the 800's central CPU board... the elements are there since 1979. The additional circuitry is on all 800 CPU boards for the stock 6502, with original chips a PLCC 6502 probably wouldn't reduce the area required but possibly if implemented in PLD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, BillC said: The additional circuitry is on all 800 CPU boards for the stock 6502, with original chips a PLCC 6502 probably wouldn't reduce the area required but possibly if implemented in PLD. Yes, I know... It takes about 8% of the boards surface and with today's technology, I fail to see why that pile of ancient auxiliary components could not be shrunk to 0.01% of the board's surface. Edited January 26, 2021 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) Want to see some folks thinking clearly, almost 38+ years ago? Look no further, this is the 800D's re-designed, enlarged CPU board, with integrated system-bus extension (where PBI may have appeared for the very first time)... ALL images from ATARI MUSEUM (check it our!): The date-codes indicate that this board must have been designed and built no later than 2nd-half of 1981 .. almost FORTY YEARS ago !!! And here's the side-board for routing and terminal extraction, on left-flank of case: Edited January 26, 2021 by Faicuai 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Yep that's the developers rig and it should have been the home computer division release as well. 'nuff said 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 i have no knowledge of 6502 being manufactured, or being manufactured in smaller package. what you refer to, is 65c02, and this you can get even in tqfp, but we won't have to wait very long, for some lost purity crusader to jump in and brag on every occasion how bad and incompatible it is 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) As per what @_The Doctor__ said above : And I've mentioned elsewhere I'm doing a dual PIA upgrade and some things about it, though redesigned modern boards are being made for it. Posted this too because this second image uses the 65C02, The first for a RTC and Centronics port that I'm not implementing: And here are some images of a redesigned dual PIA board implementation designed by a co-conspirator of mine. I'll have two of the controller port boards installed in my 800, designed as they are because I'm fitting them on the back of the 800, not out the side. This isn't necessarily the final implementation, we've gone through over half a dozen redesigns already for best fit on the mobo and under the shielding. 65C02.zip Edited January 26, 2021 by Gunstar 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 it took a little more time than anticipated, but at least it will provide all nessesary connections and features to run vga fx core with it 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Is this intended to be used in the 800 mode? If so, this will probably require separate drivers for SDX. I remember either you or Electron promising that VBXE would never ever be used on 800, and therefore the software can assume XL/XE hardware. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 i haven't decided yet we can discuss this if you want 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 1 hour ago, candle said: it took a little more time than anticipated, but at least it will provide all nessesary connections and features to run vga fx core with it Assuming the white IDC headers are 50-pon and PBI in/out: Will PBI lines finally buffered? Some of them look pretty ugly on the scope, as they are. There are -5V, +5v and +12v rails on that precious Slot-3 (besides access to $D5XX and $D6XX)... Which one will be used to tele-powering will run when connected to outside devices? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 1) no, as this was never intended for this 2) what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 22 minutes ago, candle said: 1) no, as this was never intended for this 2) what? #1: well, it may be a good time to think about this, as there will be more PBI devices, eventually. PHI-2 signal on the scope does not look pretty, for instance. #2: Assuming the two white IDC 50-pin connectors are for PBI in/out extension (presumably for those users that have already Incognito installed, thus easing picking up HALT, etc.), you already know that there are + 5 volts provided on that bus passed from Incognito itself. You also already know that there is a power / current limit that can be passed through, and there are already plenty of devices competing for +5 volts on the system (Incognito, Ultimate/SD cart, other carts, etc. and now VBXE...) Is that board going to carry a DC-to-DC power-stage to enable better, more power on the PBI bus (for remote devices) or is it just going to pass through the puny +5volts that Incognito is providing? Or is this board a completely passive devices that does nothing other than carrying VBXE guts? Maybe it is clear now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 looks like a vbxe carrier adapter board to me, ah it says VBXE adapter board on it so that's what it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: looks like a vbxe carrier adapter board to me, ah it says VBXE adapter board on it so that's what it is Yep... If this invention is also intended for the classical-800 community (e.g. no Incognito, which would be certainly great!!!), I wonder what their reaction is going to be when they realize that their 48K 800s will become 32K machines... Unless, of course, the VBXE upgrade makes up for a lost Slot-3 (RAM), or, on the contrary, I am missing a crucial detail here (which is perfectly possible...) We'll see how it goes... Edited January 26, 2021 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: looks like a vbxe carrier adapter board to me, ah it says VBXE adapter board on it so that's what it is Never mind, after studying the board above everything I said here before the edit is moot. So I deleted it. I just want to know about additional power consumption and Phi2 signal issues. Hopefully it is getting power from the slot and not depending on the Incognito. And of course losing ram for non-Incognito 800's, which doesn't concern my Atari. But since I had to return a dead Sophia 2 and am awaiting a replacement, I think I may just hold off and see what happens with this project, and install the Sophia 2 in my 1200XL instead. Though since I've cut my 800 case and mounted the DVI out, I'll have to hook the VBXE's VGA up to it and use an adapter. and make another my own DVI output board for the 1200XL. Edited January 26, 2021 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 faucuai, you wrote you're busy buying sophia/whatsoever, why are you still here? obviously you have no clue about power distribution, or power conversion, yet, heared about dc/dc converters and wanted to shine - you're not shining here... having anemic power supply to start with there is nothing that will save you, 800xl has no power on pbi bus for a REASON, and the only reason there is to it that 600xl has, it's was intended soleyly for 1064 expansion pack - out connector doesn't have 5V on it either you can try to power some logic with the supply provided, but thinking about powering entrie bus is a dream current handling of those two pins are 4A, where you think you're going to put them or get them from? and as always - no incognito, no ride 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) I've got +5v on both my 1200XL and 800 PBI's and everything still works fine with them without external power to the Turbo Freezer on the 800 or the Syscheck 2 on my 1200XL along with multiple other internal upgrades using amperage and MyIDE II and SDX cart plugged in as well. I wouldn't stretch it any further though, and additional PBI devices I'll power externally. But I'm using a 31VA PSU on both. That said, I'm liking your adapter board so far @candle! Edited January 26, 2021 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) bottom line I'm thankful that we can have bit3/vbxe/and the ports on the 800 with the incognito... this is satisfying... and was the original request... if you give a mouse a cookie soon he wants some milk if you give a mouse some milk soon he wants a.... You know the story. If you do the ribbon cable method you have you have one way of doing it and if you do the board you have another... either way it's going to be some cabling and it's up to the individual to decide which of candle and company's solution you want to use. We have all we wished for, and more than one solution is shown. Let's be happy! If Candle asks for more input on the matter then it might be time for more of this and that. I'm going to enjoy what's offered and be happy Edited January 26, 2021 by _The Doctor__ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 gerber files will be released for anyone to make their own, i spent three days designing it, and i'm not going to spend anymore - this supposed to take 4 hours, and i've put a lot more into it i'm not here to someone's plesure or entertiment 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Candle, I'm very thankful for what you've done and can't wait to upgrade the jed and enjoy the very best upgrade for the 800. I am sorry that the latest pcb layout became so consuming. I was giving the warning about folks continuing to ask for more in hopes they would be pleased with what's been done and be thankful. It's my hope that we all enjoy what you've done for us as much as you were having making the changes and modifications for us. Here's hoping all is well and everyone enjoys the spectacular work you've done! _T D__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 no need to be thankfull, not-demanding is enough this is just something i wanted to do to perhaps help someone with vbxe installation who is not inclined on heavly modyfying his 800 plastic parts or whatever and would still want to have decent monitor output and capabilities WAY BEYOND what bit3 card had to offer take it or leave it, if someone wants something else, or more - go ahead and design it 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, candle said: no need to be thankfull, not-demanding is enough this is just something i wanted to do to perhaps help someone with vbxe installation who is not inclined on heavly modyfying his 800 plastic parts or whatever and would still want to have decent monitor output and capabilities WAY BEYOND what bit3 card had to offer take it or leave it, if someone wants something else, or more - go ahead and design it I think it's a great idea and hope they'll be produced by the usual suspects... macrorie, lenore, lotherik, lake, et al (exciting times with more I haven't mentioned supplying boards and goods to the public) while on the subject... do you have a donation button etc like many do for gifting/donating of monies somewhere? Edited January 26, 2021 by _The Doctor__ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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