kenames99 Posted January 3, 2022 Author Share Posted January 3, 2022 1 minute ago, reifsnyderb said: If the MIO didn't do anything with CFFF, 1DFE, or PORTB then my proposal will be compatible. D1FE was actually shadowed by another location the MIO used. dont recall right off what it was but definitely shadowed. it had to do with the addressing in that area was not fully decoded. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 On 1/2/2022 at 7:49 PM, kenames99 said: D1FE was actually shadowed by another location the MIO used. dont recall right off what it was but definitely shadowed. it had to do with the addressing in that area was not fully decoded. Ken I took the time and checked out the 1090XL specification then compared it with CSS Black Box & ICD Multi I/O (MIO). Basically, they are so incompatible that the only regions that are safe are D100-D11F and the Parallel Device ROM from D800-DFFF. Of course, the Parallel Device ROM is only available when MPD is set. However, to properly set the device you need to set the device at D1FF. Both CSS Black Box and ICD Multi I/O (MIO) are incompatible with the D1FF spec. set by Atari and conflict with each other. To be true to the Atari Spec., the 1090XL couldn't be used with CSS Black Box or ICD Multi I/O (MIO). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 I'm curious if they could be used with the 14xx Voice, Speech or floppy as they are parallel devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1 hour ago, kheller2 said: I'm curious if they could be used with the 14xx Voice, Speech or floppy as they are parallel devices. I looked at the 1450 schematic and didn't see any sign this would be possible without additional circuitry. In which case, it makes more sense to use modern circuitry to get it done. I guess if enough people want the 1090XL box it will happen eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 4 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: I looked at the 1450 schematic and didn't see any sign this would be possible without additional circuitry. In which case, it makes more sense to use modern circuitry to get it done. I guess if enough people want the 1090XL box it will happen eventually. I don't see many people using a MIO/BB and being upset they can't also use a 1090. However, if something could be made compatible -- then sure, but I would figure using the documented PBI specs and expanding on them would be better suited. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, kheller2 said: I don't see many people using a MIO/BB and being upset they can't also use a 1090. However, if something could be made compatible -- then sure, but I would figure using the documented PBI specs and expanding on them would be better suited. I agree with using the Atari PBI specs. They are very versatile and would allow for almost any expansion card you could want. The only thing I wish there was was a HALT signal and external chip selects for the other chips. (i.e. the OS chip) A lot can still be done as the PBI card BIOS would loads before anything else. (I am exploring those possibilities and will post when I have it tested.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 The MIO is closer to spec, the black box steals all id's and breaks most of the rules... It would be cooler than all h*ll to see both device made compliant as 1090 boards 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 20 hours ago, reifsnyderb said: I agree with using the Atari PBI specs. They are very versatile and would allow for almost any expansion card you could want. The only thing I wish there was was a HALT signal and external chip selects for the other chips. (i.e. the OS chip) A lot can still be done as the PBI card BIOS would loads before anything else. (I am exploring those possibilities and will post when I have it tested.) Something I did was to pick off the Halt signal internally in the 800XL and run it to one of the reserved pins on the PBI. I think it is generated by the Antic chip. Then the 1090XL connector routes that for buffering/distribution to the slots. Yes the PBI connector uses a non Atari spec signal transfer and yes you need to hijack a pin on the slots for it. But if I remember correctly there is at least a couple of pins that can be reconfigured on the slots to give you that Halt signal. And it's available for all slots instead of being specific to a single plug in board. Something to consider at least.? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 11 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: The MIO is closer to spec, the black box steals all id's and breaks most of the rules... It would be cooler than all h*ll to see both device made compliant as 1090 boards Well, some of those features already are boards -- like the Parallel/Serial board (easily made into a print buffer), and the floppy board specs already exist (mostly) for a PBI device. A HD isn't much harder. But, making a 1090 compliant "MIO" with a modified MIO ROM would be cool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 37 minutes ago, Dropcheck said: Something I did was to pick off the Halt signal internally in the 800XL and run it to one of the reserved pins on the PBI. I think it is generated by the Antic chip. Then the 1090XL connector routes that for buffering/distribution to the slots. Yes the PBI connector uses a non Atari spec signal transfer and yes you need to hijack a pin on the slots for it. But if I remember correctly there is at least a couple of pins that can be reconfigured on the slots to give you that Halt signal. And it's available for all slots instead of being specific to a single plug in board. Something to consider at least.? That could be done and there are some reserved pins available. But it requires soldering. A lot of people can't solder and some may not want to modify their stock Atari. I know I'd rather not modify my stock 800XL that was my first computer. (I might add chroma...but am not happy about it.) Having S4, S5, and some of the chip selects routed would be nice as well. But soldering and modifications are required. A compromise would be to support as many of those possibilities on the reserved pins...but not require them. It would be nice to be able to add a huge amount of capabilities to the machine without any soldering. I know this has been done with cartridges. I think the PBI has some interesting options available that would be great to do. I have a board being made to explore some possibilities right now. I'll post about it if it works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 Is there any movement on building a chassis for the 1090XL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 23 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: Is there any movement on building a chassis for the 1090XL? Depending on the size of the board, I'm sure somebody will come up with a 3D printable case. Add a couple of 2mm aluminium sheet inside for rigidity and grounding and it'll be perfect for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 13 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: The MIO is closer to spec, the black box steals all id's and breaks most of the rules... It would be cooler than all h*ll to see both device made compliant as 1090 boards Does it do the same whatever ID you use, or are specific IDs used for different functions? If it's the former, you could create a small in-between board that let's you select one ID for MIO and ignore the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 6 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said: Depending on the size of the board, I'm sure somebody will come up with a 3D printable case. Add a couple of 2mm aluminium sheet inside for rigidity and grounding and it'll be perfect for me. It would be a fair-sized print. The 1090xl board is 178 x 227 mm and the case would be at least 160mm high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, ivop said: Does it do the same whatever ID you use, or are specific IDs used for different functions? If it's the former, you could create a small in-between board that let's you select one ID for MIO and ignore the rest. I am not sure. The only info I have for the MIO is in the Altirra Hardware Reference Manual. I can only guess as to what id it assumes as that information isn't in the manual. My guess is that it responds to any ID and once it's ROM takes control it does what it wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 On 10/12/2021 at 7:53 PM, kenames99 said: ok, order is in for 80 column board along with an adapter board, 2716 eproms are pretty scarce these days, I think I have 1 kicking around here somewhere. anyway, 2716 to AT28C64 or AT28C256 will fit even tho only 2K of space can be used. limitation of the 80cvc board design. Ken How's it going with the 80 column board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 17 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: It would be a fair-sized print. The 1090xl board is 178 x 227 mm and the case would be at least 160mm high. It would be doable on a bigger printer like the Ender 5. Or in two part with recessed screws like those new MSX kit cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said: It would be doable on a bigger printer like the Ender 5. Or in two part with recessed screws like those new MSX kit cases. Yeah. I was thinking a two part case, as well. Maybe use PETG as it prints better than ABS or PLA. It does seem a decent number of cases are now 3d printed. Are there any measurements on a case available? Edited January 7, 2022 by reifsnyderb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 1 minute ago, reifsnyderb said: Yeah. I was thinking a two part case, as well. Maybe use PETG as it prints better than ABS or PLA. It does seem a decent number of cases are now 3d printed. I'm kind of new at 3D printing but if those mesurement you gave earlier are exact I may try to make one. I've got a new Anycubic Mega Pro in box with optional filament dryer that I'v yet to try out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said: That could be done and there are some reserved pins available. But it requires soldering. A lot of people can't solder and some may not want to modify their stock Atari. I know I'd rather not modify my stock 800XL that was my first computer. (I might add chroma...but am not happy about it.) Having S4, S5, and some of the chip selects routed would be nice as well. But soldering and modifications are required. A compromise would be to support as many of those possibilities on the reserved pins...but not require them. It would be nice to be able to add a huge amount of capabilities to the machine without any soldering. I know this has been done with cartridges. I think the PBI has some interesting options available that would be great to do. I have a board being made to explore some possibilities right now. I'll post about it if it works out. One wire from the Halt pickoff point to the PBI pin. Not an especially hard thing to do. Since at least for now there are no mass produced 1090XL pcbs in existence, any modifications of the Atari 1090XL specs would be easy to incorporate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 22 minutes ago, Tuxon86 said: I'm kind of new at 3D printing but if those mesurement you gave earlier are exact I may try to make one. I've got a new Anycubic Mega Pro in box with optional filament dryer that I'v yet to try out. Those are rough measurements. Also the screw holes would have to be located. I'd probably make the inside about 10mm larger than needed as the board shouldn't be touching the sides. Ideally, the case should have XL styling, too. I am waiting to see if anyone chimes in with exact dimensions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dropcheck said: One wire from the Halt pickoff point to the PBI pin. Not an especially hard thing to do. Since at least for now there are no mass produced 1090XL pcbs in existence, any modifications of the Atari 1090XL specs would be easy to incorporate. Maybe some of the reserved pins should be assigned for experimental reasons and a batch of boards ran off? Once we all have some board in our hands, development could proceed. Pins 47 and 48 are +5 on the 600xl so can't be used. Pin 37 was reserved for card select. So that's not available. That leaves pins 33 and 39. Maybe 33 could be for HALT. Maybe the other (39) could be for TRIG3 (RD5) so as to use as an external cartridge sense line? I am thinking a card could act as a cartridge? If RD5 is set, the MMU would try to map to the cartridge but PBI devices don't have to listen to the MMU nor do _S4 or _S5 go to the PBI. The 1090XL has 3 available and presently unused buffered inputs so one could be attached to HALT. The 1090XL card connectors have 3 available and reserved pins, so there is space. EDIT: Another option would be to use pin 39 and connect it to PORTB, pin, 1 so as to allow for an external swap-out of BASIC? It's too bad there's only 2 lines available. Edited January 7, 2022 by reifsnyderb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenames99 Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 14 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: Those are rough measurements. Also the screw holes would have to be located. I'd probably make the inside about 10mm larger than needed as the board shouldn't be touching the sides. Ideally, the case should have XL styling, too. I am waiting to see if anyone chimes in with exact dimensions. here is the mechanicals drawing I originally used, but there were some people that helped me with exact measurements and hole size and placements and the rest of the info I needed for the pc board. the case is another matter because of slot placement cutouts for the cards to expose connectors to the outside world. best route would be to contact an owner of a real 1090XL so they could provide the measurements needed. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 10 minutes ago, kenames99 said: here is the mechanicals drawing I originally used, but there were some people that helped me with exact measurements and hole size and placements and the rest of the info I needed for the pc board. the case is another matter because of slot placement cutouts for the cards to expose connectors to the outside world. best route would be to contact an owner of a real 1090XL so they could provide the measurements needed. Ken Thanks! I just saved that. I have the kicad files off your github. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said: Those are rough measurements. Also the screw holes would have to be located. I'd probably make the inside about 10mm larger than needed as the board shouldn't be touching the sides. Ideally, the case should have XL styling, too. I am waiting to see if anyone chimes in with exact dimensions. The styling can be copied from the 1050. I'll wait for the exact dimension also and what ports/openings are required in the front/sides/back. Should've scrolled down before replying.... Edited January 7, 2022 by Tuxon86 Should've scrolled down before replying.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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