RF Appreciation Thread

[hizzy]

I have an AV modded 2600 with S-Video and composite. As much as I like it, hooking it up to my flat screen has given me mixed results. I don't like the screen jitter that I get with the modded console. I also have a super mint un-modded 2600 that I recently hooked up and has been sitting in a box for the better part of 30 + years. While the image isn't as crisp, it is surprisingly clean and even noise free. On my flat screen, I get no jump or any weird effects.

 

The un-modded console has become my preferred 2600 rig of choice. I like the picture on it even more than I do on my 2 un-modded 7800 consoles. The 7800 has chroma bleed and some weird glitches with my Harmony Cart. The 2600 through is RF stable and beautiful!

 

Any thoughts? Any others like the RF connection? I'm thinking of picking up another un-modded console and recapping it to see if I can get the RF picture even better. 

[+Karl G]

@Nathan Strum has a pretty good blog article on how to clean up the RF signal. I know a lot of people prefer RF for the authentic look with the "softer" look of the fuzziness, and the color artifacting.

[Crazy Climber]

Pretty much all I use...if you look through these pics you will see numerous different RF arrangements I have done over the last 20 years lol

 

I'll have to take some pics of my current set up one of these days.....

[MrTrust]

Count me among the RF-only crowd.  I can't justify keeping an old CRT around anymore (my Atari stuff takes up too much room as it is), but I started out playing on a crappy 80s TV with the old forks-and-screws connection, and that's the look I want.  So maybe going into the flat screen through the RF isn't quite the same, but it's better than seeing it through a pristine signal, where all the blockiness is thrown into sharper relief and it looks like a modern "de-make".  I've got a Boomer soul, at least in part.

[+Mitch]

That is what happens when you use one of the cheap A/V mods. You get picture quality that is worse than RF.

 

Mitch

[livingonwheels]

Funny you happened to post this topic. Today I had planned to mod my Colecovision for composite output. I ordered this Colecovision AV mod kit from console5 and received it earlier this afternoon. I usually have no issue using a soldier iron, but are you kidding me? There was no mention on the Console5 page that I had to assemble this myself. I can barely see the damn thing, never mind those caps and chip that needs to be attached. Luckily it was only about $10 so no big loss, but I'll stick with RF. Picture below:

 

And they expect me to turn it into this:

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by livingonwheels

[bluejay]

RF works excellently on my Heavy Sixer. Not so well on my Sears 4 switch. Colecovision is sometimes flaky or off-color. CoCo 2 is excellent apart from the fact that it outputs on Channel 4 when I have the switch to Channel 3.

 

RF is good enough but not the best.

[+DrVenkman]

RF on my Sears Heavy is excellent, by far the best RF I've ever seen from a vintage system. My Atari Light Sixer and 5200 are just a quarter-step worse, if that. All three are great, especially on a CRT. I only have two flatscreens in the house with RF inputs; anything in North America newer than about 2015 or 2016 likely won't have any analog inputs at all, let alone RF - it's HDMI or nothing in those cases.

That said, with a UAV mod, my 4-Switch Woody has a clear, bright and sharp composite picture, as does my 2-port 5200 with the same mod. My 7800 with a UAV through S-video is excellent, especially on a CRT. They are good on a flat panel through my RetroTink, subject to the fact that 2600 games have some clear and obvious issues through a line-doubling scaler like the RetroTink. 2600 games just weren't written with hard and firm rules for scanline timing and the number of horizontal lines in modern display standards.

[hizzy]

Does the retrotink add the screen jiggle/jump?

[Keatah]

I don't do mods. I don't like mods. I don't condone mods. But to each their own. If I'm gaming on a modern LCD style display I demand that my console & hardware create signals that match my display.

 

I'm the most ardent believer that the circuitry which generates the image and signals should be matched to the output display. And for the early cartridge systems that means RF. It's what they were engineered for.

 

Not a fan of sticking in a $10 mod that will only partially and incorrectly match the characteristics of a vintage console to what a modern-day display expects. Especially, as just mentioned, when the games don't conform to any strict standard. Scanlines, timings, that sort of thing.

 

When that situation arises I'm all for taking a completely different route by using a powerful i7 or i9 with an accurate emulator. For those that don't like emulation, ya'll can save a buck or two and get a MiSTer for FPGA simulation.

 

Either way you're now working entirely in the digital domain, with matching display inputs. A good emulator will handle scanline and timing issues with minimal or no adjustment from you. It will also let you explore "vintage" RF characteristics. Often to good effect if you don't max it out.

 

[+MrZarniwoop]

I take your point that the experience is a combination of the game itself (software), the console that plays it (hardware), and the display. An old 9” black and white TV is obviously a very different experience from a 77” OLED TV.

 

Personally, I totally love the RGB (if available) and UAV upgrades to old consoles. I have found that I slightly prefer playing on real original Atari consoles but have no desire to have a CRT when I have some killer modern TVs around. I’ve been happy with various RetroTINK 2X converters and tend to leave them in line-doubled and smoothed mode which to me looks better than various emulator-based retro-simulated displays. It even handles artifacting for games like Atari 7800 Tower Topple if hooked up via a composite signal!

 

I have to say, I do love the save/restore functionality in emulators, which gives new life to old games.

 

But from a vintage Demon Attack cartridge to the brand-new Circus Convoy from a Harmony Encore cartridge, I’ll stick with a good picture and clear sound. In some cases, I’ve gone to great lengths for that.

 

I also don’t feel the need to play my old vinyl records on a hand-cranked phonograph. Instead, I play them on a modern AV receiver with phono amp and fully modern speakers that have been tuned in for amazing sound reproduction. The really old ones from the ‘40s don’t suddenly sound like 21st century master tape recordings, but they sound as good as possible based on the source material. (A bit like Demon Attack!) In some cases, like some stereo records from the late ‘50s, they sound shockingly good, actually. (A bit like Pitfall II.)

 

You didn’t mention something else that I think for me far more encapsulates the retro-gaming experience; the controllers.

 

I tend to find myself in three different controller moods:

 

1. “Serious play” where I like the wireless convenience of a better-than-NES-style 8BitDo N30 Bluetooth gamepad + 8BitDo Retro Receiver for SEGA + Edladdin Seagull 78 adapter

 

2. “Old school” original wired Atari CX40 joystick (I won’t tell you what my wife calls this controller, suffice to say I think you had to grow up with it to appreciate it)

 

3. “The middle ground” late 80’s wired Atari CX78 gamepad that was bundled with European & Australian Atari 7800s, but somewhat more rare in the US. It’s got a touch of retro charm and feel, but a bit more accessible for modern play, although not really fitting into either paradigm neatly.

[hizzy]

I'm really surprised how clean RF can look. I was looking at the UAV mod, but I find myself pretty happy right now. 

[AtariSphinx]

I would agree with that RF can look just as great as good as composite. 

 

I recently did an experiment with my front load NES comparing the stock RF output to the stock composite output routed to a 14" CRT TV with OEM cables.  The outputs were the same except for a slight wave on the RF output.  Next I took the composite out and ran it through an external composite to RF $15 converter.  The result was the same as using composite strait out of the NES to my eyes.  I think either inter shielding in NES or the RF cable was the cause of the wave.

 

I run my 4 switch 2600 with OEM RF cable and the output is great.  The key though was cleaning both end connectors, using F connector instead of the switch box, using ferrite beads on the cable,  and keeping the cable away from items that can cause interference, and having it tuned properly. 

 

Bottom line I think it really depends on having a properly tuned RF circuit, good cable, proper shielding, and probably a good quality CRT. 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

23 hours ago, livingonwheels said:

Funny you happened to post this topic. Today I had planned to mod my Colecovision for composite output. I ordered this Colecovision AV mod kit from console5 and received it earlier this afternoon. I usually have no issue using a soldier iron, but are you kidding me? There was no mention on the Console5 page that I had to assemble this myself. I can barely see the damn thing, never mind those caps and chip that needs to be attached. Luckily it was only about $10 so no big loss, but I'll stick with RF. Picture below:

 

And they expect me to turn it into this:

 

 

that is a new one. I will ask Luke about this and see if this is the norm going forward. The last time I ordered some of these boards from him, they came preassembled. Likely he might have changed it so it costs extra to have them assembled which would be more in line with other pricing he used to have on these. They are one of the least cost composite kits I've found the for the CV and the ones I installed looked just as good if not better than the ones I installed before although they are all based on the same circuit design.

 

 

**UPDATE*** Confirmed from console5, that this is how this kit will come from now one and part of the reason for the $7 price tag it has. Most assembled kits using larger through hole components cost about $25 on average and had been what I was using previously. So yeah, this isn't the most friendly kit at this point, but a decent iron and steady hand can still do it without the need for specialized SMD rework kits.

[RamrodHare]

I'm playing on a 2600 jr using RF and It's got better picture quality than either of the modded 4 switch consoles I had. My TV is a Vizio 42 inch flat screen and I've had no issues using it compared to my old CRT.

[youxia]

14 hours ago, AtariSphinx said:

I would agree with that RF can look just as great as good as composite. 

Not literally. There was a whole thread about this recently:

So, it can look better if a) the mod itself is not that good b) the TV's composite is borked. But theoretically composite is always > RF.

 

That of course is also different from saying that "RF looks good", which is subjective and entirely possible. Also, 2600's gfx is naturally rather simple and translates itself better to modern panels than the more complex stuff which came later and looks way better on CRTs.

[hizzy]

Here is a photo of my RF feed. I'm pretty happy with this until an FPGA Atari comes out or until I hook up stella to my TV

 

[Mockduck]

I am very much an RF fan. I get that people love the ease and results, but I'd never ever RGB mod an Atari. 

[+MattelAquarius]

Ralph Furley was indeed better than the Ropers.

 

Maybe we should move this thread to the Three's Company sub forum?

 

 

[Keatah]

3 hours ago, hizzy said:

Here is a photo of my RF feed. I'm pretty happy with this until an FPGA Atari comes out or until I hook up stella to my TV

How would you go about doing that? Would you plan on using a SFF Win10 PC? It's what I'm doing, and I dialed in the right amount of NTSC "fuzzies" and color saturation for a great CRT look.

[Crazy Climber]

Just picked this bad mama-jamma up yesterday. 13" Emerson Color TV

[hizzy]

4 hours ago, Keatah said:

How would you go about doing that? Would you plan on using a SFF Win10 PC? It's what I'm doing, and I dialed in the right amount of NTSC "fuzzies" and color saturation for a great CRT look.

I don't mind the sharp lines of HDMI. When I emulate, I don't use filters. I'm leaning towards a Pi setup, but there are so many small desktops that could work, too. I only emulate Atari. It's the only console that I play regularly. I would to FPGA but the 2600 core still needs a lot of work. 

 

[Keatah]

Small desktops are rapidly gaining popularity. Thrice because of low power consumption, semi-portability, and aesthetics. They fit anywhere.

 

If you put Software Emulation and FPGA side-by-side you’ll likely find that SE is developed at a much faster pace, more thoroughly, and that there are more choices. And each SE has all kinds of customization options.

 

I dislike the harsh hi-res lines of unfiltered emulation, unless I’m studying something in a game. Otherwise it’s full-on effects. But gently 10-20% across the board. Like very good RF or Composite. Barely visible scanlines.

 

I do like a deep and saturated color palette however. Even back in the 80’s halcyon days. And always go overboard on that!

Edited April 2, 2021 by Keatah

[juansolo]

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

If you put Software Emulation and FPGA side-by-side you’ll likely find that SE is developed at a much faster pace, more thoroughly, and that there are more choices.

Not sure that's the case these days. SE had a massive head start, mainly down to FPGAs only really becoming accessible for sensible money in recent years. But the development going on with MiSTer is insane, things are happening almost on a daily basis, and we're talking new cores here not just tweaks. It's batshit just how much momentum it has.

 

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

And each SE has all kinds of customization options.

Again, it's had many years to get ahead of the game on that, but FPGA is catching up with a range of filters to help create pleasing effects.

 

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

Barely visible scanlines.

Going completely off on an aside here, but on a properly calibrated BVM, scanlines are utterly black and it looks amazing. There's no bleed at all like there is on a domestic TV. I totally agree with you, when applied to SE/FPGA on a panel they seem way too aggressive like that, and sap the brightness (compensated on a real TV as they're so much brighter than a panel). As someone who grew up with CRTs, no scanlines just looks wrong to me, but 100% on a panel does too, so on emulation I run them on a mild setting.

 

But then again the way a panel draws the screen isn't 'natural' either and it's only now we have 120hz panels with black frame insertion that they can emulate the way that CRTs and plasma's naturally decay as they draw their image. Again it's a thing you don't realise you're used to. But it's why I've never really been able to handle LCD panels for watching movies because the movement is wrong [to me] so have stuck with my plasma for so long. At some point, when they're small enough, I'll pick up a new OLED, as they're now about as close as you can get to an old CRT in terms of contrast and with BFI, movement also.

Edited April 2, 2021 by juansolo

[Keatah]

Yes I get all that. I tend to want to replicate the look as I remember it BITD. Or going one better in the direction of perfect geometry and consistent colors from day to day and year to year. As kids in the late 70's we imagined "super" displays. The tech level we thought of as sci-fi level came to be real with the advent of 1600x1200x32 monitors. That was in the 90's.

 

I keep meaning to get into MiSTer more than the occasional messing around. I'm just happy that it IS gaining some popularity. And it certainly helps that a team effort is involved - this stuff takes significant man hours. Imagine how less developed MAME would be if it were a one-man gig? Not only that, but having many contributors helps insure continuity throughout the ages. These projects are bigger than any one individual..

 

And in this hobby there are so many ways to go about doing something. There's really no right or wrong. It's very easy to get carried away promoting one's own gaming style as the ONLY way to play.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Keatah