PMG Overlap

[glurk]

Ok, need help.  I'm working on the "Frostbite" thing, and I'd like to make a 4-color player from 3 PMG players using overlap.  And I've NEVER once used that feature before.  I know it works by OR'ing 0/1 or 2/3.  And I think it will work out.  Here's his colors:

 

Player_Colors

   .byte $24,$24,$24,$24,$24,$24    ; %00100100 brown hat
   .byte $36,$36,$36            ; %00110110 flesh face
   .byte $06,$06,$06,$06,$06,$06    ; %00000110 grey coat
   .byte $26,$26,$26,$26        ; %00100110 yellow feet

So if my thinking is right - and this stuff is a bit of a headache - if I use one player for hat/feet, then I can overlap coat onto feet and get the third color, using only 3 players?  Does that make sense?  This kinda thing makes me just go bonkers.

 

Anyway, is there a good PMG editor to use to experiment with this type of thing?  I'm really not a "graphic artist" at all.  If I could mock this up in some - hopefully windows based - editor, I could probably be more productive.  How / with what do others do this stuff?

[Wrathchild]

 

[José Pereira]

1 hour ago, glurk said:

Ok, need help.  I'm working on the "Frostbite" thing, and I'd like to make a 4-color player from 3 PMG players using overlap.  And I've NEVER once used that feature before.  I know it works by OR'ing 0/1 or 2/3.  And I think it will work out.  Here's his colors:

 

Player_Colors

   .byte $24,$24,$24,$24,$24,$24    ; %00100100 brown hat
   .byte $36,$36,$36            ; %00110110 flesh face
   .byte $06,$06,$06,$06,$06,$06    ; %00000110 grey coat
   .byte $26,$26,$26,$26        ; %00100110 yellow feet

So if my thinking is right - and this stuff is a bit of a headache - if I use one player for hat/feet, then I can overlap coat onto feet and get the third color, using only 3 players?  Does that make sense?  This kinda thing makes me just go bonkers.

 

Anyway, is there a good PMG editor to use to experiment with this type of thing?  I'm really not a "graphic artist" at all.  If I could mock this up in some - hopefully windows based - editor, I could probably be more productive.  How / with what do others do this stuff?

There's the problem, the Oring... and your values will not, combined, make a 3rd colour oring:

24 & 36= 36  /  06 & 26= 26  /  24 & 26 = 26  /  36 & 26 = 36 so only 24 & 06 = 26 but this is a minimum difference and will not be noticeable.

I don't think you'll need all PMGs wasted on the guy.

 

Two options I see:

-> Using just 2PMGs (0&1) giving a 3rd colour oring:

P0 brown (14) oring P1 gray (08) gives 3rd colour light brown (1C);

-> Using 2PMGs and 3rd mades from the 4Missiles (in 5th Player mode so takes PF3 colour (you sure are using a Bitmap mode so there's no PF3 in it and 2600 are 8pixels wide):

P0 brown (14) oring P1 gray (08) gives 3rd colour light brown (1C) and the Missiles for the arms (here's a blue but can be any you wish, just set PF3 colour register to your like);

 

The 2nd one think is the best solution.

You can this way free 2PMGs (P2 and P3) to have the monocolour birds so 2 per line are possible.

This seems the way to go and to best get it running and port from the 2600.

Just my opinion...

?

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by José Pereira
Added the now orings why not working

[glurk]

Wrathchild - That looks like a useful tool, but it's 404 error now.  And it was written in Flash, which is also problematic.  Maybe if someone saved a copy somewhere, I could get it to run on an older system.  I don't know...

 

José Pereira - Thanks!  I think I can use that (the first option).  I'm already using the missiles as 5th player (all black) to mask the left and right screen edges.  This is essential on this one, because it hides some 2600 "NUSIZ" garbage from showing onscreen.  And I still have to deal with the player priority levels (different problem), but I think I've got a way figured out for that issue.

 

Do you know of a good PMG editor?  I'm still looking for one.

[Thelen]

2 hours ago, José Pereira said:

There's the problem, the Oring... and your values will not, combined, make a 3rd colour oring:

24 & 36= 36  /  06 & 26= 26  /  24 & 26 = 26  /  36 & 26 = 36 so only 24 & 06 = 26 but this is a minimum difference and will not be noticeable.

I don't think you'll need all PMGs wasted on the guy.

 

Two options I see:

-> Using just 2PMGs (0&1) giving a 3rd colour oring:

P0 brown (14) oring P1 gray (08) gives 3rd colour light brown (1C);

-> Using 2PMGs and 3rd mades from the 4Missiles (in 5th Player mode so takes PF3 colour (you sure are using a Bitmap mode so there's no PF3 in it and 2600 are 8pixels wide):

P0 brown (14) oring P1 gray (08) gives 3rd colour light brown (1C) and the Missiles for the arms (here's a blue but can be any you wish, just set PF3 colour register to your like);

Very interesting... I also don't really know how to combine playercolors to get some other color and how it's calculated. Also I don't know what 'Oring' means. Now I'm curous about it, Is there a topic or website I can read (and hopefully understand) more about it?

[Wrathchild]

2 hours ago, glurk said:

but it's 404 error now

Maybe @playsoft can advise?

[zbyti]

40 minutes ago, Thelen said:

Very interesting... I also don't really know how to combine playercolors to get some other color and how it's calculated. Also I don't know what 'Oring' means. Now I'm curous about it, Is there a topic or website I can read (and hopefully understand) more about it?

During development of Albert game @kski make tool for that, ask him about it, it was published on atarionline.pl

[danwinslow]

Oring means to do a bitwise OR operation on two bit masks, thus producing another color (depending).

Edited December 14, 2021 by danwinslow

[glurk]

Yeah, this is a neat Atari 'feature' that I've known of/about for a long time, but have never actually used.  Jose's suggestion is a big help to me, because if I can get a nice-looking 3 color player using only 2 PM graphics, it makes programming a lot easier, less stuff to move around in memory.

 

I think it would be cool if it used XOR instead of OR to get the colors, but not sure how that would actually work out.  I've never really used PM graphics a WHOLE lot anyway...  I'm going to piddle around with it and see how it all ends up looking.

 

For me, the "graphic art" stuff is by far and away the most difficult part.  I kinda suck at it.

[José Pereira]

18 hours ago, glurk said:

José Pereira - Thanks!  I think I can use that (the first option).  I'm already using the missiles as 5th player (all black) to mask the left and right screen edges.  This is essential on this one, because it hides some 2600 "NUSIZ" garbage from showing onscreen.  And I still have to deal with the player priority levels (different problem), but I think I've got a way figured out for that issue.

Hi.

Have been watching video(s) of the game.

You have at the top (not scrolling):

- house;

- bear;

Then is done by different horizontal zones (from top to bottom) moving left or right (similar to Frogger):

<-> animals;

<-> ice blocks;

repetead 4 times...

 

So have a look at a Frogger screen:

Top zone is a static screen (no scrolling eneabled) and the house (igloo) can be made of 3shades (white and 2grays) with nice ice blocks design.

The bear can be a soft sprite in 3colours or the remaining 2PMGs (P2 & P3) but this way single colour).

 

You can design different scrolling zones with 3colours each (DLIs to change to the next).

The scrolling zones can be done by hardware scrolling (left right and at different speeds). Animals when they're stand still you disable the scrolling at that zone then enable it again to have they moving.

So blocks and animals can have 3colours and different per scrolling zone each.

 

You said you're using Missiles as 5th Player to cover the sides but you don't need to.

Look at the above example you see that it covers all the screen width so is you enable A8 wider screen mode (48Bytes width screen).

Top is made of sky DLIs of the back with only the igloo and the bear moving so it can still be 48Bytes wide.

 

The reason for the 48Bytes wide is that is a nice feature of the A8 machines and it'll also leaves you the 4Missiles as 5th Player for free.

Having these free you can have them for the guy and not waste the other 2PMGs (usefull for the bear?)...

That's what we're using on Wonderboy:

-> 2PMGs: dark gray ORING red = pink (3rd colour);

-> Missiles (PF3) = yellow;

 

On your case you could make it very similar to Wonderboy like:

-> 2PMGS (P0 &P1): gray (coat) ORING red (shirt arms and pants legs) = pink (skin face and hands 3rd colour);

-> Missiles (PF3)= dark brown (hat and shoes);

 

Think these are the best ways to go in my opinion though I don't know you're knowledge.

This game is a candidate for this kind of approach and not using the specific and own A8 capabilities may will not get a good result at the end.

A 2600 straight port isn't possible as they're, for almost sure, are using all the things (mostly) as PMGs because 2600 can repeat them across the lines that A8 can't.

 

Hope you understand all that I wrote.

If you wish help and to talk send me a message and for the code help for sure are here many others that can help.

Also regarding the guy sprite PMGs using the 2 more the 4Misssiles in 5th Player mode if you'll have trouble just call me and I'll see with Wonderboy coders to pass you the routine (indeed the guy moving 4/8ways is indeed very similar so the code can be used for your game).

?

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by José Pereira

[glurk]

4 hours ago, José Pereira said:

A 2600 straight port isn't possible as they're, for almost sure, are using all the things (mostly) as PMGs because 2600 can repeat them across the lines that A8 can't.

 

But I AM DOING a straight 2600 port ?

 

I've already got the scrolling zones and everything done with hardware scrolling and DLI's and such, just as you mentioned.  That stuff is already done.  It was just the difficult matter of converting all the 2600 NUSIZ / REFLECT stuff to ANTIC mode 6.  And I had to manually mirror all the animals, and the bear, and I will have to do the same for the player-man also.  

 

This game could have been "ported" to the A8 by doing a full re-write, like Antonio Savona did for C64, or like Antoni Burguera did for Colecovision, but I decided to just directly port over the 2600 code, which is what I'm still working on.

 

There is still the possibility to do graphics improvements, but my goal now is to jest get it all working first!  ?

 

EDIT TO ADD:  Just to be more clear, YES it is possible to directly convert 2600->8bit.  Just like phaeron did with Midnight Magic, Stampede, Seaquest, Adventure, Combat, etc...  And it's what I did with Barnstorming.  That's running the same actual 6502 code that's on the 2600 cartridge.  And it's the same thing here.

 

I'm doing it differently than phaeron.  He actually ported the "kernel" over for most of his, and I'm not doing that.  I first create a display list to make the screen, and then do a "middle-ware" layer to draw the graphics in the "8-bit" way.  Which isn't easy, because you have to do all the NUSIZ repeating graphics, and all the REFLECT mirroring manually.  But that's what I'm doing.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by glurk

[Mclaneinc]

Never tell a programmer something isn't possible, it will only make them more focussed on making it happen. I'd ask Avery as he seems to be a whizz with the coding and machines abilities..

[VinsCool]

15 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

Never tell a programmer something isn't possible, it will only make them more focussed on making it happen.

spite is a powerful motivator  

I absolutely live for that kind of stuff, makes me respect the amount of work behind seemingly impossible things even more.

I honestly never thought 2600 ports could be done like this, but that's really amazing for sure.

[TGB1718]

17 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

Never tell a programmer something isn't possible, it will only make them more focussed on making it happen.

Think I got the tee-shirt on that one ?

[Beeblebrox]

18 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

Never tell a programmer something isn't possible, it will only make them more focussed on making it happen......

@Mclaneinc  cool, a bit of reverse psychology ... 

 

ok, A8 coders out there in Atariland.. "it's impossible to code a full version of Doom on the A8....  "

 

(Maybe I am being a lil optimistic there and should try small first heh heh)

[Mclaneinc]

Whilst not a coder of much standing myself, I have known so many proper coders and the mentality is normally "I don't care what they say, I reckon I can do that", which is great as that's how all the fancy stuff gets found out.

[TGB1718]

2 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

Whilst not a coder of much standing myself, I have known so many proper coders and the mentality is normally "I don't care what they say, I reckon I can do that"

Think you could change that to "I know I can do that"

 

I can remember many years ago I took a contract to populate a database from some text files, the files

were the output of a database report and there were 10's of thousands of entries, the original database structure

was not known as they had upgraded their system and trashed the old one.

They were told by others who had tried it couldn't be done but they needed it back in a database to produce Audit reports.

 

Was like waving a red flag at a bull saying impossible (never say never  )

It took me about 6 weeks  using a mix of Unix shell scripts/AWK scripts and 'C' programs, if I remember

correctly, the shell scripts wrote new scripts based on the information and it worked.

 

They offered me a full time job in their IT department when my contract competed ?

 

[Mclaneinc]

And that is how the show goes on, stubborn head and ingenuity will prevail and in your case had a sugar coated finish..

[glurk]

Just so that José Pereira doesn't think I don't appreciate his ideas, I do.  But I already so have much stuff done and working.  My lines of sea-creatures are all ANTIC mode 6, so each critter is one color.  I COULD change those lines to ANTIC mode 4 to allow more colors, but then I'd have to:

 

1> Draw all new multi-color creatures

2> Change my memory layout

3> Change all my working HSCROL calculations

4> Change all my working DLI's

5> Hope the DMA-timing costs all work out

6> Re-test the whole thing all over again

 

So of course, I'm going to stick with what I have.  This is a difficult port anyways, I'll be happy just to get it all onscreen and working!

 

[_The Doctor__]

Keep doing what you are doing, when or if it all works out you are golden! If it doesn't or you aren't satisfied you can always go back and refactor based on all of the ideas or methods people present and or come up with something new from it all of your own... a combination and confluence of it all. Maybe that means a deluxe version one way or another... who knows the very best could be your first direct port or it could be a follow up. The only way to know is to keep at it and enjoy yourself... We all will enjoy in the journey and the port when finished. Great job and great work.

[Mclaneinc]

@glurk It's your project, you do what best suits you. Ideas are nice, but a massive rejig of code isn't fun..

[rra]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:18 PM, glurk said:

Wrathchild - That looks like a useful tool, but it's 404 error now.  And it was written in Flash, which is also problematic.  Maybe if someone saved a copy somewhere, I could get it to run on an older system.  I don't know...

 

José Pereira - Thanks!  I think I can use that (the first option).  I'm already using the missiles as 5th player (all black) to mask the left and right screen edges.  This is essential on this one, because it hides some 2600 "NUSIZ" garbage from showing onscreen.  And I still have to deal with the player priority levels (different problem), but I think I've got a way figured out for that issue.

 

Do you know of a good PMG editor?  I'm still looking for one.

Here is the Atari Player Editor .swf file which can be opened with the zipped Adobe Flash Player.  This is a really good tool for PM animation and also shows the results of two overlapped players and the resulting colors.

AtariPlayerEditor.zip

[glurk]

42 minutes ago, rra said:

Here is the Atari Player Editor .swf file which can be opened with the zipped Adobe Flash Player.  This is a really good tool for PM animation and also shows the results of two overlapped players and the resulting colors.

AtariPlayerEditor.zip 6.71 MB · 2 downloads

THANK YOU kind sir!  Just tested it, and it loads and runs A-OK.  Really needed something like this!

 

If I may ask, do you know of anything similar (windows-based) for editing "fonts."  I have matosimi's program, but for what I'm doing (graphics USING characters) I could use something with bigger pixels.  More specifically I need to create 8 animation frames made up of 4 side-by-side characters.  So the result is a 32x8 graphic.  My vision is not great, so I'm trying to find something with big pixels in a grid.

 

I was just getting ready to post a question about Windows-based Atari graphics utilities.  Maybe there is a thread on that already?  It's my biggest hurdle, creating graphics assets.  If I had some good tools to get that stuff done, I could get back to programming again.  I'm not going to ask anyone to do stuff FOR me, but any other pointers to good utilities to use are definitely, absolutely appreciated!  Thanks.

[matosimi]

If my fontmaker is not suitable, then use graph2font (g2f), it is not used only to create fancy-pants pictures.

It requires some learning curve, but for simple pixel art it is quite ok...  you just click the magnifier icon and you can start drawing. Q,W keys to change selected color.

When all is done, you just export to ASM format which generates several files including the FNT font file...from which you just strip off the parts you don't need.

 

also there is one more tool that might be interesting for you... called MAD Studio, which is a toolset that contains (among others) a PM editor as well as font editor, but I am more used to my tools and g2f.

[glurk]

Thanks matosimi.  That MAD Studio looks like it will work nicely.  I've used your fontmaker a lot too, but with poor vision, it's hard (for me) to see the little pixels.  And I'm working in ANTIC 6 (text mode 2) so the pixel aspect ratio is a bit wider.