Atari/Legends Flashback Expansion Builds

[Batchman]

22 minutes ago, TampaBay said:

@Batchman, @rocketfan  I have an AFB 12 and I play the paddles games on it (it might have been one of my posts that you saw earlier).  The AFB 12 is pretty much the exact same unit as the 50th Anniversary.  Just a name change as mentioned.

 

 I personally don't mind that it doesn't match an original 2600 as I have no muscle memory from when I played the original 2600 way back as a kid.  The games on AFB 12 play just fine for me.  I wonder if I might like it even better than the original since there is more granularity when you spin the paddles.  You can fine tune your movements since a spin of the paddle doesn't jet you entirely across the screen.

Yes, the problem is, with the original paddles (or rather the system's reading of them) you could cross the entire screen with a single twist of the wrist. With them being half as sensitive, I'm worried of having to flick wrist, reposition hand, and flick wrist again to cover the distance, which adds an extra step in there, slows you down, and therefore likely makes it more difficult to catch the ball in time.

[TampaBay]

24 minutes ago, Batchman said:

Yes, the problem is, with the original paddles (or rather the system's reading of them) you could cross the entire screen with a single twist of the wrist. With them being half as sensitive, I'm worried of having to flick wrist, reposition hand, and flick wrist again to cover the distance, which adds an extra step in there, slows you down, and therefore likely makes it more difficult to catch the ball in time.

 

@Batchman I just did a quick test, because I was curious myself.  I played Kaboom!, Super Breakout, and Warlords.  In all of those games, it took about a 1/2 rotation to cross the entire width of the screen.  So if my pointer finger was at 9 o'clock on the paddle and I rotated right, that finger was at 3 o'clock when I crossed the whole screen.  It was maybe a little less for Super Breakout.  So at least for those three games, it's a pretty quick half-turn to go across the whole way.  If you're in the middle, a quarter turn in either direction will get you to the edge of the screen.

 

That said, they are very stiff.  I had heard other people talk about that before as well.  There is more resistance in these than the originals.  It's very smooth, but it almost feels like they're weighted.  I don't know if they break in over time.  If I recall correctly, the originals were pretty free-wheeling and easy to spin.  I did have fun with all three games though just now!

[Batchman]

@TampaBay (Gee, you're close ... I'm right over in Lakeland.) Thank you for the testing. That might or might not be OK for me, but I guess it's worth trying. Shattered my wrist in a cycle accident once, so don't have the full range of motions. But as I said, with that information, it's worth a try.

[TampaBay]

41 minutes ago, Batchman said:

@TampaBay (Gee, you're close ... I'm right over in Lakeland.) Thank you for the testing. That might or might not be OK for me, but I guess it's worth trying. Shattered my wrist in a cycle accident once, so don't have the full range of motions. But as I said, with that information, it's worth a try.

 

@Batchman Ah, small world.  Nice.  I've been to a restaurant called Harry's over that way, a couple of times.  Sorry to hear about the wrist.  Yeah if you can get a Flashback 12 Gold for in the $70 range, might be worth a shot.  Especially if you can return it.  Plus I think I saw someone successfully put Nexus on their Flashback 12, so even better.  I have Nexus on my AFB 9 and may try it on my 12 sometime soon.

[rocketfan]

On 2/25/2024 at 4:09 PM, Andreatari said:

The game has just won the ZeroPage Homebrew Award 2024 in the Atari 8BIT/5200 Port category 😎

Mr. Cucchetto,  congratulations on your well deserved win!  I have seen your acceptance on the ZPH awards show.  Your work on that terrific game (Space Taxi) is greatly appreciated.  FYI, it has been included on the latest updates for these flashback devices I made in the last months.  @CapitanClassic may not have realized it was there, or maybe is hoping for a release of the game on cartridge.  Anyway thanks again, it is amazing to see what people like you can create with the Atari 8-bit computers!

Edited February 27 by rocketfan

[rocketfan]

On 2/25/2024 at 3:49 PM, TampaBay said:

I wonder if I might like it even better than the original since there is more granularity when you spin the paddles.

I was thinking the same - it might actually give more control.  When I test the upcoming Nexus build I'll break out my 50th anniversary model.

[TampaBay]

54 minutes ago, rocketfan said:

I was thinking the same - it might actually give more control.  When I test the upcoming Nexus build I'll break out my 50th anniversary model.

Awesome.   Nexus has been absolutely incredible on my AFB 9.  Your work is so appreciated.

[rocketfan]

@cambam2221 @MrChickenz  I'm replying about Colecovision button B for Atari flashbacks in this thread, because it's more specifically aimed at the flashback expansion packs. 

 

So thanks for the examples.  I looked and of course right away I realize select is dedicated to bring up the on-screen number pad.  So I believe anything done will require a mod to the core.  I have never built the Colecovision core but it's very likely it can be done.  For the games @MrChickenz mentioned like Space Fury it would be possible to use up for thrust and the fire button to fire.

 

However, I also found this big list of games which use two buttons referenced in an old Atariage thread:  http://www94.pair.com/jsoper/cv_2button.html   

 

So, there are quite a few, and I'm sure some of them need up to be up!  A few possibilities exist - use the start button - which might be OK if the second button is infrequent - like smart bomb in defender, use the button on the second controller, or maybe use up for certain cases.  I'll look at building the core before I worry toe much more about how to approach it.

[MrChickenz]

10 hours ago, rocketfan said:

@cambam2221 @MrChickenz  I'm replying about Colecovision button B for Atari flashbacks in this thread, because it's more specifically aimed at the flashback expansion packs. 

 

So thanks for the examples.  I looked and of course right away I realize select is dedicated to bring up the on-screen number pad.  So I believe anything done will require a mod to the core.  I have never built the Colecovision core but it's very likely it can be done.  For the games @MrChickenz mentioned like Space Fury it would be possible to use up for thrust and the fire button to fire.

 

However, I also found this big list of games which use two buttons referenced in an old Atariage thread:  http://www94.pair.com/jsoper/cv_2button.html   

 

So, there are quite a few, and I'm sure some of them need up to be up!  A few possibilities exist - use the start button - which might be OK if the second button is infrequent - like smart bomb in defender, use the button on the second controller, or maybe use up for certain cases.  I'll look at building the core before I worry toe much more about how to approach it.

Thanks for responding! I know Omega Race and Space Fury act like Asteroids where it’s just left,right. Up and down aren’t used.

anyway just a thought. Those games among others never seemed to be played in emulation because they require two buttons.

Unless a SEGA Genesis controller works with the unit that has the emulation but that’s not always the case.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to respond! I very much appreciate the effort you put into all of this!

[TampaBay]

When I originally saw this posted on Atari's website (the two-button CX78+ Gamepad), and saw that it said it's compatible with the 2600, the first thing I thought was "I wonder how easy it would be to access the second button as a separate button for Nexus?"  Ha.  I have no idea, and it likely wouldn't be worth it if it needed to be programmed individually for each two-button game, but it is something that crossed my mind.

 

https://atari.com/products/cx78-gamepad

 

Edited February 27 by TampaBay

[rocketfan]

@TampaBay That cx78 gamepad is on a short list of items which are going to be non-negotiable "must purchases" for me.  I have a real 7800 I use and honestly I think that controller's just going to be a lot better.

 

Could it be used for Nexus?  I think so, but would require something like the splitter @pimpmaul69 put together here:

 

 

I actually bought some parts (flashback 1 controllers and some 9-pin cables) to try to do the same!  I do complete some of my retro-gaming projects, but I also have MANY sitting in a started, but never completed state.  This is one case where I have had a plastic bag full of parts waiting until I have time - since late 2022!  There's an old UNIX fortune that somewhat applies to me:  "You plan things that you do not even attempt because of your extreme caution."  🙃  

For that cx78 or any 7800 controller it seems possible that with the right splitter cable you could route the second action button to act as button one on port 2.  At least two of the cores (7800 and 5200) were modified to allow that second port fire button to be used for button two, so possibly that could make for a nice 5200/7800 setup on the Atari flashbacks.

 

 

[TampaBay]

9 minutes ago, rocketfan said:

@TampaBay   I think so, but would require something like the splitter @pimpmaul69 put together here:

 

 

Ah, gotcha.  I think I've been spending too much time in Retroarch because I guess I envisioned it being a lot simpler.  I was thinking that the CX78+ would output a different signal for each of its two buttons, and when the emulator cores received those two individual signals,  they could be assigned to their appropriate functions.  Like when I take any generic Playstaytion style controller in Retroarch, I just use the software to make the individual buttons do whatever I want via the mapping tool.  I thought it would be similar "in concept" with the CX78+ and the emulation cores running on Nexus, but perhaps not.  Either way, it does look like a cool little gamepad!

[rocketfan]

12 hours ago, MrChickenz said:

Those games among others never seemed to be played in emulation because they require two buttons.

On this subject - I did go ahead with a trial build of the Gearcoleco core: https://docs.libretro.com/library/gearcoleco/ 

 

It looks like it should be easy to mod.  The downside vs. the current core is there is no virtual on-screen number pad.  They mapped all the numbers to different buttons on modern controllers.  SO  - it's never as simple as you think.  Anyway, it should be possible to do something with it to help, and I will come back to it when I'm doing the Nexus update.

     

Edited February 28 by rocketfan

[rocketfan]

55 minutes ago, TampaBay said:

I envisioned it being a lot simpler.

Yeah, that would be nice!  These flashback devices were hardwired through programmable GPIOs to reproduce (almost) the original controller functionality.  That lets you use your original Atari joysticks and paddles, but they just are not the same as modern USB controllers.  The arcade legends flashbacks do use Genesis/Megadrive controllers, so they have more buttons to work with in the "Legends Ultimate Flashback" builds.

[TampaBay]

2 hours ago, rocketfan said:

Yeah, that would be nice!  These flashback devices were hardwired through programmable GPIOs to reproduce (almost) the original controller functionality.  That lets you use your original Atari joysticks and paddles, but they just are not the same as modern USB controllers.  The arcade legends flashbacks do use Genesis/Megadrive controllers, so they have more buttons to work with in the "Legends Ultimate Flashback" builds.

 

Makes sense.  It's easy to forget how restrictive the hardware is when I'm sitting here playing Gran Turismo in the Playstation emulator or Star Wars on Sega 32X. 

 

It's one thing to see it out-of-the-box on the Gamestation Pro, but what you guys have done with the Flashbacks is really incredible.

[Gabe]

On 2/25/2024 at 4:47 PM, TampaBay said:

 

@Batchman I just did a quick test, because I was curious myself.  I played Kaboom!, Super Breakout, and Warlords.  In all of those games, it took about a 1/2 rotation to cross the entire width of the screen.  So if my pointer finger was at 9 o'clock on the paddle and I rotated right, that finger was at 3 o'clock when I crossed the whole screen.  It was maybe a little less for Super Breakout.  So at least for those three games, it's a pretty quick half-turn to go across the whole way.  If you're in the middle, a quarter turn in either direction will get you to the edge of the screen.

 

That said, they are very stiff.  I had heard other people talk about that before as well.  There is more resistance in these than the originals.  It's very smooth, but it almost feels like they're weighted.  I don't know if they break in over time.  If I recall correctly, the originals were pretty free-wheeling and easy to spin.  I did have fun with all three games though just now!

It's the same here, with the rotation and accuracy being the same with Kaboom! and Super Breakout with my FB12G. The firmware update definitely helped. They're not perfect, but a lot better. Mine are stiff as well. I'm hoping they loosen up a bit over time and get closer to the ones I got for my 2600+ (the paddle pack with the 4-game cartridge). Other than the stiffness they're pretty much on par with those paddles, or at least with gameplay. I don't know that the internal quality is as good, but time will tell. I do know that they're not made with the same components, as the paddles for my 2600+ have the traditional D shaped post that the paddle wheel goes onto, just like the originals, while the ones with the FB12G are splined.

[TampaBay]

10 hours ago, Gabe said:

It's the same here, with the rotation and accuracy being the same with Kaboom! and Super Breakout with my FB12G. The firmware update definitely helped. They're not perfect, but a lot better. Mine are stiff as well. I'm hoping they loosen up a bit over time and get closer to the ones I got for my 2600+ (the paddle pack with the 4-game cartridge). Other than the stiffness they're pretty much on par with those paddles, or at least with gameplay. I don't know that the internal quality is as good, but time will tell. I do know that they're not made with the same components, as the paddles for my 2600+ have the traditional D shaped post that the paddle wheel goes onto, just like the originals, while the ones with the FB12G are splined.

 

Cool, thanks for the info.  Regarding the stiffness, mine are definitely breaking in.  TBD how much they'll eventally break in and if they get close to the originals.  I did just go over to mine for a quick test.  The Flashback is not even turned on, and I turned each of the two paddles.  One was significantly looser than the other, so that one is clearly the one I use for games and is breaking in nicely.

 

I have the 2600+ paddles on order and it says they're shipping in a couple of months, so I'll give those a test when they come in too, for comparison.

[rocketfan]

I spent a fair amount of time over the last couple of weeks learning about vic-20 emulation with the vice xvic retroarch core.  Vic-20's original adverts call it "the friendly computer" but I have to say emulation at least with a retroarch core is not too friendly!  🫤  I went in thinking if I turned on emulation of the biggest memory expansion I should be good - but NO!   Many games need a specific memory expansion size to operate correctly.  So eventually I found out games are named with like [8k] in the rom name for a reason - the emulator can use that as a hint to set the expansion size.  I had been stripping those out of the names and causing myself grief in the process!  Anyway, another thing making it unfriendly is games load to very specific memory blocks.  That ALSO can be hinted in the file names with like [2000], [6000], [A000].  Alternate rom extensions .a0 and .60 etc. are another way of hinting that.  Games that load to A000 were working OK, but 6000/.60 games would not auto-start, I was beating my head against that for a long time until I found a discussion on Batocera Linux from last year that they see the SAME issue, so it is a core bug.  The great thing is the author found a workaround ironically of using multipart archives, and it worked!  That actually got ALL the un-working Atarisoft games going for me, which was something I really wanted the section to have.

 

Here is a reference to the Batocera discussion for posterity if anyone else ever fiddles with adding vic-20 games:  https://github.com/batocera-linux/batocera.linux/issues/9527

 

These happy people on the VIC-20 box are good example of how marketing works.  End of rant on the subject, LOL. 

 

In the end after hacking my way through this and a lot of play-testing I have 70+ of the best vic-20 games going well and will start constructing a section.  Possibly the best news is I ran across the "megacart" image for Vic-20 which is a multi-cart that contains hundreds of games.  Cart emulation is a bit easier since it does not rely on ram expansion packs - games are accessed from the cart itself.  Almost all of the multi-cart games seem to start and run OK, so that suddenly adds hundreds of games without much fiddling!  

 

 

In the end, I will say there are some true GEMS for the Vic-20 with some very unique games, some that have great and fast game play, and a few really nice modern home-brew games also.

Edited March 4 by rocketfan

[Batchman]

Rocket, that sounds incredible!

[OrangeKryptonite]

15 hours ago, rocketfan said:

I spent a fair amount of time over the last couple of weeks learning about vic-20 emulation with the vice xvic retroarch core.  Vic-20's original adverts call it "the friendly computer" but I have to say emulation at least with a retroarch core is not too friendly!  🫤  I went in thinking if I turned on emulation of the biggest memory expansion I should be good - but NO!   Many games need a specific memory expansion size to operate correctly.  So eventually I found out games are named with like [8k] in the rom name for a reason - the emulator can use that as a hint to set the expansion size.  I had been stripping those out of the names and causing myself grief in the process!  Anyway, another thing making it unfriendly is games load to very specific memory blocks.  That ALSO can be hinted in the file names with like [2000], [6000], [A000].  Alternate rom extensions .a0 and .60 etc. are another way of hinting that.  Games that load to A000 were working OK, but 6000/.60 games would not auto-start, I was beating my head against that for a long time until I found a discussion on Batocera Linux from last year that they see the SAME issue, so it is a core bug.  The great thing is the author found a workaround ironically of using multipart archives, and it worked!  That actually got ALL the un-working Atarisoft games going for me, which was something I really wanted the section to have.

 

Here is a reference to the Batocera discussion for posterity if anyone else ever fiddles with adding vic-20 games:  https://github.com/batocera-linux/batocera.linux/issues/9527

 

These happy people on the VIC-20 box are good example of how marketing works.  End of rant on the subject, LOL. 

 

In the end after hacking my way through this and a lot of play-testing I have 70+ of the best vic-20 games going well and will start constructing a section.  Possibly the best news is I ran across the "megacart" image for Vic-20 which is a multi-cart that contains hundreds of games.  Cart emulation is a bit easier since it does not rely on ram expansion packs - games are accessed from the cart itself.  Almost all of the multi-cart games seem to start and run OK, so that suddenly adds hundreds of games without much fiddling!  

 

 

In the end, I will say there are some true GEMS for the Vic-20 with some very unique games, some that have great and fast game play, and a few really nice modern home-brew games also.

Oh man, this is wild! Thanks for all your work!! Can't wait. The next build will be EPIC!!!

 

[rra]

Its great to see the Vic 20 support.  Try to add Omega Race if you haven't already.  The Vic-20 version was one of the few home consoles or computers that the arcade game Omega Race was ported to, and they did a great job with it.

[TampaBay]

Edit:  I found the solution to my original question.  When playing Starmaster for Atari 2600, the Difficulty switches can switch you back to the map from combat mode.  (On the original 2600 you needed to use the Black & White switch, which is not available on a Flashback.  I was wondering if Nexus had a workaround, and I just saw that you can use the Difficulty switches).

Edited March 7 by TampaBay
Found solution

[rocketfan]

@TampaBay I own an original Starmaster cart and I only brought it up for testing when I got it - haven't played it enough to realize I even needed the B/W switch.  Good hint though - I'll try to remember it. 

 

@rra Yes, Omega race is in there!  That is a good port.  Even the "best of" Vic-20 games are all over the map. Log Run (a sort of simplistic Donkey Kong clone) has full character jumps and seems like it could be a BASIC game.  Still, it's not too bad - normally keyboard, but I was able to map the keys to the joystick.  Some of the older games like GridRunner and Matrix are in a different league altogether.  A couple of the newer games Berzerk MMX and Pulse even have synthesized speech!  Pulse is just a great shooter considering the hardware.

Edited March 9 by rocketfan

[TampaBay]

12 hours ago, rocketfan said:

@TampaBay I own an original Starmaster cart and I only brought it up for testing when I got it - haven't played it enough to realize I even needed the B/W switch.  Good hint though - I'll try to remember it. 

 

Ah very cool.  I actually like Starmaster better than Star Raiders.  Starmaster is a fun game, though it can be a challenge even on the easiest level!

[Batchman]

OK, got an Atari Flashback 12 to take advantage of the updated paddles. Now can anyone direct me to the proper firmware upgrades and processes to get things fixed up with good paddles and NEXUS access?

 

(Sorry, don't keep up here as much as I used to.)