Intellivision Amico’s trademark changed to ‘abandoned’

[jerseystyle]

7 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

 

I appreciate your coverage of this Bill and letting us know about it.  However, as my wife always says, "ver para creer".  We will see what happens, but until something tangible is produced that you can legitimately order and/or has been reviewed in some (reasonably professional) manner then I think we can chalk it up to being other Intellivision-related vaporware product(s) until proven wrong.

For sure, lots of wishcasting in that video. However the Collectorvision Phoenix released and this seems to be along those lines. So, doable. Not something I’d wanna pick up but as long as they don’t steal money or come here to threaten people then I’ve got no issues.

 

Also if this releases before the Amico I’d be unreasonably happy. They’ll have to invent a new German word to describe the emotion.

Edited August 1, 2023 by jerseystyle

[Bill Loguidice]

3 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

 

I appreciate your coverage of this Bill and letting us know about it.  However, as my wife always says, "ver para creer".  We will see what happens, but until something tangible is produced that you can legitimately order and/or has been reviewed in some (reasonably professional) manner then I think we can chalk it up to being other Intellivision-related vaporware product(s) until proven wrong.

I obviously have no skin in the game, so just thought it was interesting to share in the appropriate thread. It's not like Intellivision Productions is sharing any info (or in fact may have any more info to share). 

 

I will say that I do think an FPGA-based console is a good idea, but those are not necessarily easy to pull off, can get quite expensive, and being centered around a platform like the Intellivision might be too audience-limited versus one that could handle multiple systems. A simpler plug and play loaded with games would likely be easier to pull off (of course, you'd still have to make a suitable controller), less expensive, and have a slightly broader reach (especially if you can make a friendlier controller), making it a net positive for a small company that can get away with only doing a relatively modest production run and not getting it in any major retail outlets. 

We pretty much know that 99.9% the Amico isn't happening, so it's good in its own way that there are still people fighting for the brand/platform with slightly better focus. That still doesn't mean anything will come of it, but at least it's a higher percentage.

[Hwlngmad]

8 minutes ago, jerseystyle said:

For sure, lots of wishcasting in that video. However the Collectorvision Phoenix released and this seems to be along those lines. So, doable. Not something I’d wanna pick up but as long as they don’t steal money or come here to threaten people then I’ve got no issues.

 

Also if this releases before the Amico I’d be unreasonably happy. They’ll have to invent a new German word to describe the emotion.

Yeah, the Phoenix console shows exactly how a small project(s) can and do happen.  So, yes, I would agree it is very much doable.

 

Also, I would say I, too, would be happy if this releases before the Amico.  Intellivision fans and/or supports deserve lots better than what they have been given and/or received in the last couple of years, that's for sure.

[Flojomojo]

The Analogue NT Mini Noir has a nice Intellivision FPGA core, but no native controller option as far as I know. Same for the Analogue Pocket/dock and probably true for MiSTer too. 
 

I don’t understand or share the enthusiasm for running vintage cartridges when there’s no shortage of vintage systems out there and everything has already been dumped to ROM files. I guess  my version of the classic gaming hobby is different from some hardcore fans. 

 

I just like to play the beep boop games for fun. 

[mr_me]

The Mister FPGA can use Intellivision controllers through its usb ports.  Not the same as a direct connection but useable.

 

Vintage Intellivisions are getting more expensive and people have wasted money on unreliable systems.  Some people just want new with modern av connections.  If you're only interested in the classic games a cartridge port isn't necessary.  Some homebrews however are only available through cartridges. Plus some people don't use rom files for a number of reasons ranging from legality to technical obstacles.

[SegaMasterSystemPunk]

5 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

Well it's basically been over since late 2019-early 2020. BUT Phil has yet to say anything. My guess is he and his friends didn't want people to know they sold, and had an influx of money.

 

It ain't over until Saggy Melonz sings!

[roots.genoa]

5 hours ago, Hwlngmad said:

Yeah, the Phoenix console shows exactly how a small project(s) can and do happen.

If you mean because it has quite a lot of problems, then yes. 🙂

[jerseystyle]

6 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

If you mean because it has quite a lot of problems, then yes. 🙂

What problems? Is there drama? I know nothing about it other than it was released. Wasn’t something I was into- I’d rather do emulation or flashback style then have to collect cartridges.

[Bill Loguidice]

Just now, jerseystyle said:

What problems? Is there drama? I know nothing about it other than it was released. Wasn’t something I was into- I’d rather do emulation or flashback style then have to collect cartridges.

It definitely has had its teething problems, like not powering off when being connected to certain HDMI sources and an incompatibility with the roller controller without some type of adapter. I haven't used the outside cores as much, but I understand there are a handful of issues with those as well. Overall, it works well, especially if you're able to get around the two issues I mentioned. It's one of those things where it's amazing it got released at all, so I don't mind a few warts here and there.

[jerseystyle]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

It definitely has had its teething problems, like not powering off when being connected to certain HDMI sources and an incompatibility with the roller controller without some type of adapter. I haven't used the outside cores as much, but I understand there are a handful of issues with those as well. Overall, it works well, especially if you're able to get around the two issues I mentioned. It's one of those things where it's amazing it got released at all, so I don't mind a few warts here and there.

Thanks for clarifying. Although it wasn’t for me I’m very happy it was released for the community. I could see this being along similar lines which would be a good thing.

[SegaSnatcher]

14 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Absolutely. That video would make sense if the guy was from BBG at least, but it's just wishful thinking all over again.

 

That being said, I can understand that Intellivision fans would be interested in an FPGA clone (that reads carts). After all, the original systems are getting old. But I think it's too soon; the technology is still quite expensive (and yet incredibly cheap compared to professional FPGA stuff). I enjoy what Analogue is doing but it's far from being a mainstream company like Nvidia or something. We won't see the FPGA equivalent of Atari Flashbacks until a few years, imho.

Shoot, I'd be interested in an FPGA INTV console with cart support, but do I believe BBG is going to suddenly pump out a high quality FPGA console anytime soon, nope.  They sell generic software digitally, what do they know about making hardware?  

[SegaSnatcher]

7 hours ago, Hwlngmad said:

Yeah, the Phoenix console shows exactly how a small project(s) can and do happen.  So, yes, I would agree it is very much doable.

 

Also, I would say I, too, would be happy if this releases before the Amico.  Intellivision fans and/or supports deserve lots better than what they have been given and/or received in the last couple of years, that's for sure.

True, but the Phoneix launched with some serious issues.  I remember syncing to televisions was a big one.  They had to issue a new rev to fix the issue, but I'm not sure how successful that product was for them.  They only released like 2 or 3 batches. 

So, just an example of how hard it is to make FPGA consoles vs some simple plug n play software emulator device. 

[Hwlngmad]

Just now, SegaSnatcher said:

True, but the Phoneix launched with some serious issues.  I remember syncing to televisions was a big one.  They had to issue a new rev to fix the issue, but I'm not sure how successful that product was for them.  They only released like 2 or 3 batches. 

So, just an example of how hard it is to make FPGA consoles vs some simple plug n play software emulator device. 

Definitely the Phoenix had its issues.  But, hey, it showed that it can be done with a small group with a specific focus and some honest to goodness hard work.  It ain't easy making an FPGA console, but I think the did a solid enough job all things being said.

[Hwlngmad]

7 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

Shoot, I'd be interested in an FPGA INTV console with cart support, but do I believe BBG is going to suddenly pump out a high quality FPGA console anytime soon, nope.  They sell generic software digitally, what do they know about making hardware?  

Yeah, the No Swear Gamer pretty much said the same thing in a video he put out today regarding the topic.

[SegaSnatcher]

As Kevtris has said there is a reason they call it hard ware.    

Yes, with the right team/talent it can be done, but anything related to INTV at this point should be met with an ample supply skepticism.  

I can see them releasing a simple plug n play software emulator device over something more complicated like an FPGA console with cart support. 

[Matt_B]

8 hours ago, mr_me said:

The Spectrum Next Intellivision fpga is a port of the Mister Intellivision fpga.  These guys could do the same.  The Intellivision fpga on Analogue systems is proprietary.  If the fpga is running at the frequency of an Intellivision than supporting a cartridge interface is a matter of connecting the io pins in fpga.  That requires less fpga space, and less support system programming than emulating the cartridge in fpga, which they are doing anyway to support rom files.  

They could potentially port it if they had a competent FPGA programmer on board. By that guy's own admission, they don't yet and there isn't exactly a massive talent pool. I doubt they're prepared to pay much either.

 

Reading Legacy ROM cartridges requires a heck of a lot more than wiring them up and matching the frequency because the underlying electronics has moved on a lot in the intervening forty years. They'll typically require a higher voltage than modern circuitry, the timings are different and - in the case of the Intellivision - the interface also supports audio/video out and a serial port. Good luck doing all that just by connecting the pins. It's a heck of a lot easier to do it from (modern) RAM because that's running on the same fundamental electronics.

 

This has been done before. I believe Kevtris demonstrated it as a proof-of-concept a decade ago. As before though, anyone else claiming they can do it needs to show, not tell.

 

The main hurdle though is the commercial viability of the project. Doing it with FPGAs is expensive and that tends to lead to devices with top-of-the-line specs across the board and prices to match. The Analogue Pocket costs about four times the price of a similarly functional emulation handheld; you're getting a great screen and build quality for your money too but it's not playing any more games than an RG35XX that you could have for around fifty bucks. The Spectrum Next and MiSTer are even more expensive, at upwards of $300 for systems you could emulate acceptably on a Raspberry Pi. Amico cultists aside, just how many people out there do you think are going to pay that kind of premium for a system that's focused on the Intellivision?

 

8 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

Wouldn't the simpler solution be to design a USB controller and use existing FPGA?

It's certainly simpler to interface a USB host. The thing is, the main attraction of using FPGA to recreate legacy devices is that you get practically no lag either on the input or the video side. That requires timing at the microsecond level and the USB is going to be far too slow for that, so everything's got to be buffered. It's a nice thing to have for convenience sake, along with Bluetooth and HDMI output, but the enthusiasts will want to be measuring their lag in microseconds with a native controller and output to a CRT monitor.

[mr_me]

2 hours ago, Matt_B said:

They could potentially port it if they had a competent FPGA programmer on board. By that guy's own admission, they don't yet and there isn't exactly a massive talent pool. I doubt they're prepared to pay much either.

 

Reading Legacy ROM cartridges requires a heck of a lot more than wiring them up and matching the frequency because the underlying electronics has moved on a lot in the intervening forty years. They'll typically require a higher voltage than modern circuitry, the timings are different and - in the case of the Intellivision - the interface also supports audio/video out and a serial port. Good luck doing all that just by connecting the pins. It's a heck of a lot easier to do it from (modern) RAM because that's running on the same fundamental electronics.

 

This has been done before. I believe Kevtris demonstrated it as a proof-of-concept a decade ago. As before though, anyone else claiming they can do it needs to show, not tell.

 

The main hurdle though is the commercial viability of the project. Doing it with FPGAs is expensive and that tends to lead to devices with top-of-the-line specs across the board and prices to match. The Analogue Pocket costs about four times the price of a similarly functional emulation handheld; you're getting a great screen and build quality for your money too but it's not playing any more games than an RG35XX that you could have for around fifty bucks. The Spectrum Next and MiSTer are even more expensive, at upwards of $300 for systems you could emulate acceptably on a Raspberry Pi. Amico cultists aside, just how many people out there do you think are going to pay that kind of premium for a system that's focused on the Intellivision?

 

It's certainly simpler to interface a USB host. The thing is, the main attraction of using FPGA to recreate legacy devices is that you get practically no lag either on the input or the video side. That requires timing at the microsecond level and the USB is going to be far too slow for that, so everything's got to be buffered. It's a nice thing to have for convenience sake, along with Bluetooth and HDMI output, but the enthusiasts will want to be measuring their lag in microseconds with a native controller and output to a CRT monitor.

He said they have an fpga programmer, and you're right, they aren't willing to spend much money on it.  So I expect, if we see anything, it will likely be a software emulation device first.

 

The Intellivision cartridge port outputs a 5v pin.  Game cartridges wouldn't use the av input pins, expansion devices like the Intellivoice, ECS computer, System Changer do.  They can and should be emulated in fpga rather than supported through the cartridge port.

 

Isn't the idea of fpga emulation to accurately emulate the original hardware in fpga hardware, so it functions like a forty year old computer rather than simulating its output using a modern computer.  The benefit being able to directly interface with the controllers and cartridges.  That's what the RetroUSB AVS, Collectorvision Phoenix, and Analogue products do. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by mr_me

[Matt_B]

Yes, Intellivision cartridges require 5V. Modern FPGA's typically supply no more than 3.3V. Interfacing the two in real time is not trivial and when a guy is promising an FPGA device with cartridge ports for three different systems my first assumption is going to be that he doesn't know this.

 

Leaving FPGAs to those who know what they're doing and making a cheap emulation plug-and-play seems a far more achievable goal that could be marketed to a much wider audience. That's not something he talked about though, so my original assessment that this is all pie-in-the-sky remains.

[MrBeefy]

11 hours ago, Hwlngmad said:

 

I appreciate your coverage of this Bill and letting us know about it.  However, as my wife always says, "ver para creer".  We will see what happens, but until something tangible is produced that you can legitimately order and/or has been reviewed in some (reasonably professional) manner then I think we can chalk it up to being other Intellivision-related vaporware product(s) until proven wrong.

Is Intellivision cursed with people making claims that aren't accurate? This seems to be the case. Not a good start IMO. If you don't know what your talking about in regards to your project maybe they should wait before opening their mouth?

 

I wonder how many colors they want it to come in?!?!?!?!?

4 hours ago, SegaSnatcher said:

True, but the Phoneix launched with some serious issues.  I remember syncing to televisions was a big one.  They had to issue a new rev to fix the issue, but I'm not sure how successful that product was for them.  They only released like 2 or 3 batches. 

So, just an example of how hard it is to make FPGA consoles vs some simple plug n play software emulator device. 

Wasn't one of the unofficial mottos of the Phoenix, "buy a different TV"?

 

I'm sorry but if you say HDMI and it doesn't work on a HDMI TV, or it pulls power from HDMI, there's either corners being cut or someone didn't do a good job in designing.

3 hours ago, SegaSnatcher said:

As Kevtris has said there is a reason they call it hard ware.    

Yes, with the right team/talent it can be done, but anything related to INTV at this point should be met with an ample supply skepticism.  

I can see them releasing a simple plug n play software emulator device over something more complicated like an FPGA console with cart support. 

I think saying hardware is hard is a little misleading. It seemsvlike the board designs are much "easier" and people struggle more with the software part to make it run.

6 minutes ago, Matt_B said:

Yes, Intellivision cartridges require 5V. Modern FPGA's typically supply no more than 3.3V. Interfacing the two in real time is not trivial and when a guy is promising an FPGA device with cartridge ports for three different systems my first assumption is going to be that he doesn't know this.

 

Leaving FPGAs to those who know what they're doing and making a cheap emulation plug-and-play seems a far more achievable goal that could be marketed to a much wider audience. That's not something he talked about though, so my original assessment that this is all pie-in-the-sky remains.

It might be a wider audience, I don't think it would be that wide. Plug n Play craze isn't big anymore and interest in Amico topped out at 10,000. I don't think a PnP device for Intv would do that well either.

 

I'm curious as to how that MyArcade Atari Gamestation thing does. Speaking of...wasn't that thing suppose to be out by now?

[mr_me]

1 hour ago, Matt_B said:

Yes, Intellivision cartridges require 5V. Modern FPGA's typically supply no more than 3.3V. Interfacing the two in real time is not trivial and when a guy is promising an FPGA device with cartridge ports for three different systems my first assumption is going to be that he doesn't know this.

 

Leaving FPGAs to those who know what they're doing and making a cheap emulation plug-and-play seems a far more achievable goal that could be marketed to a much wider audience. That's not something he talked about though, so my original assessment that this is all pie-in-the-sky remains.

The logic in Intellivision cartridge roms work with 2.4v at the low end.  As far as a 5v power requirement, even the board Mister uses has both 3.3v and 5v power pins in its gpio.  And he did talk about a cheaper software emulation device as well.  But until there's an announcement from BBG Entertainment it's just talk.

[Matt_B]

1 hour ago, MrBeefy said:

It might be a wider audience, I don't think it would be that wide. Plug n Play craze isn't big anymore and interest in Amico topped out at 10,000. I don't think a PnP device for Intv would do that well either.

 

I'm curious as to how that MyArcade Atari Gamestation thing does. Speaking of...wasn't that thing suppose to be out by now?

I'd agree that there probably wouldn't be a huge amount of interest for a sub-$100 plug-n-play but there would surely be a heck of a lot more than for an expensive FPGA device, even assuming that they could make one, that might only sell in the hundreds. Nobody's making a fortune out of either, I'd expect, but the plug-n-play would have a much greater chance of breaking even.

As for the Atari Gamestation Plus, I'd think that it needs to straddle that fine line between being cheap enough for a throwaway purchase, yet with enough of a premium feel that people are going to want to keep using it. There are only really the NES and SNES Classics and MegaDrive Minis that have done that for me and the death of plug-n-plays has mostly been down to the inability of everyone else to achieve that.

[kevtris]

8 minutes ago, mr_me said:

The logic in Intellivision cartridge roms work with 2.4v at the low end.  As far as a 5v power requirement, even the board Mister uses has both 3.3v and 5v power pins in its gpio.  And he did talk about a cheaper software emulation device as well.  But until there's an announcement from BBG Entertainment it's just talk.

you would definitely want to drive 5V logic levels on the cart pins.  using 2.4V would be a disaster (or even 3.3V).  the mister dev board doesn't really have enough pins to run a cartridge easily, and you'd have to remove features and do some rearranging to make it work.  Also, depending on how the hardware is rendered in their core, it might not be easy to add a cartridge port. 

 

if they use the mister core, they will have to keep the entire device open source, or license the core from the original dev (so long as it does not contain other open source things, like the ay-3-8910 audio).  This isn't a real big problem maybe, but it's something they will have to think about. 

 

hopefully if they do do such a thing, they will design a pcb for it with a proper HDMI transmitter so it can do 1080p and not be stuck at 480p like the phoenix is.  And emit a signal that is standard compliant so it will run on every TV and monitor.  I saw someone complain the phoenix didn't work on their TV, and the "solution" people gave was literally to buy a new TV.  The phoenix is kind of painted into a corner and there's no easy way to fix the HDMI coming out since the crystal oscillator chosen and the M/N PLL kind of locks them in to what it has now.  Was the problem where you had to unplug the HDMI just to turn it off/change carts or reset it fixed with a hardware revision?  It was being backfed power somehow from the HDMI port and even if you unplugged the power it'd still keep running.

[famicommander]

They should just be releasing compilations and new iterations of their classic brands across Nintendo, Playstation, Xbox, Apple, Android, PC, and Evercade platforms. 

 

Instead of a whole ass new device to play Intellivision games why not just play Intellivision games on devices people already own? Or, hell, if you really want to let people play original carts that bad release a USB cartridge port peripheral that plugs into the already existing systems. Emulator app on the device, plug in your Astrosmash cart, play it with a damn Xbox controller.

 

The same goes for most of the classic brands, really. How many more low quality pieces of plastic that play the same Atari games do we really need sitting around? Have ANY of the Neo Geo branded emulation devices not sucked so far? Did one single person on this planet enjoy their PS1 mini consoles (without modding)? Do we really need a device molded to look like an Amiga with a fake keyboard to play Amiga ROMs in 2023?

 

Hell, at this point just do an Intellivision branded Super Pocket console and call it a day.

Edited August 2, 2023 by famicommander

[roots.genoa]

To me it's the usual jealousy problem. Nintendo, SEGA, and Co all have their mini consoles so Intellivision fans want their favorite system to have one as well. Unfortunately, the real world sucks and you don't always get what you want. Get over it.

[Wayler]

How about, instead of using an established and somewhat known brand, they should rename Intellivision to, I don't know, XX. And instead of the industry-wide accepted term "game", they should start releasing romps. Instant profit and unanimous approval.