Intellivision Amico’s trademark changed to ‘abandoned’

[mr_me]

6 hours ago, kevtris said:

you would definitely want to drive 5V logic levels on the cart pins.  using 2.4V would be a disaster (or even 3.3V).  the mister dev board doesn't really have enough pins to run a cartridge easily, and you'd have to remove features and do some rearranging to make it work.  Also, depending on how the hardware is rendered in their core, it might not be easy to add a cartridge port. 

 

if they use the mister core, they will have to keep the entire device open source, or license the core from the original dev (so long as it does not contain other open source things, like the ay-3-8910 audio).  This isn't a real big problem maybe, but it's something they will have to think about. 

 

hopefully if they do do such a thing, they will design a pcb for it with a proper HDMI transmitter so it can do 1080p and not be stuck at 480p like the phoenix is.  And emit a signal that is standard compliant so it will run on every TV and monitor.  I saw someone complain the phoenix didn't work on their TV, and the "solution" people gave was literally to buy a new TV.  The phoenix is kind of painted into a corner and there's no easy way to fix the HDMI coming out since the crystal oscillator chosen and the M/N PLL kind of locks them in to what it has now.  Was the problem where you had to unplug the HDMI just to turn it off/change carts or reset it fixed with a hardware revision?  It was being backfed power somehow from the HDMI port and even if you unplugged the power it'd still keep running.

With opensource, only changes to the opensource code need be shared back as opensource.  You can have propietary components in the same project.

 

What happens if you don't shift levels to 5v.  Can it do damage to the cartridge or just fail to function?

[AtariLeaf]

13 hours ago, SegaSnatcher said:

True, but the Phoneix launched with some serious issues.  I remember syncing to televisions was a big one.  They had to issue a new rev to fix the issue, but I'm not sure how successful that product was for them.  They only released like 2 or 3 batches. 

So, just an example of how hard it is to make FPGA consoles vs some simple plug n play software emulator device. 

As far as I know the TV issue hasn't been completely solved. I still can't use my phoenix on either of my hdtv's. I have to use an hdmi to composite adapter which I kinda actually prefer since it displays nice on a crt but it seems the phoenix has been kind of abandoned by its creators but I could be wrong. I haven't followed it closely the last couple years.

[Bill Loguidice]

7 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

To me it's the usual jealousy problem. Nintendo, SEGA, and Co all have their mini consoles so Intellivision fans want their favorite system to have one as well. Unfortunately, the real world sucks and you don't always get what you want. Get over it.

It's at least more realistic than those requesting 3DO, Jaguar, Odyssey2, Vectrex, etc., plug and plays. The Intellivision (and ColecoVision) plug and play from AtGames actually did rather well in the pre-NES Mini heights of the category, it just never met the arguably unrealistic retailer expectations. I think, if done well and with only needing to meet modest sales goals made possible by a small and lean operation, it can be its own type of success. It's definitely one of those borderline platforms that can go either way sales-wise depending upon execution.

[kevtris]

5 hours ago, mr_me said:

With opensource, only changes to the opensource code need be shared back as opensource.  You can have propietary components in the same project.

 

What happens if you don't shift levels to 5v.  Can it do damage to the cartridge or just fail to function?

that depends on the open source license, but generally you need to post the entire project; at least in the case of FPGAs, the entire source for the FPGA portion I'd think.  I am no law talkin' dood expert though (and it will depend on the license).  There could be some kind of "no commercial use allowed" clause too, but this is all speculation.

 

as for 3.3V IOs, you can generally drive 3.3V to the cart without much issue, but if you try to drive 5V into 3.3V IOs (i.e. a data bus) it generally won't go so well.  the AVS (FPGA NES) works this way; it connects most of the cart lines directly to the FPGA which are outputs, and uses 3.3V logic on them, and only level translates the data busses and the inputs (IRQ, CIRAM A10, etc).  This seems to work well enough there.  I personally would level translate the entire bus though to isolate the FPGA from the cartridge port but that's just me.  The intv cart bus is pretty small, it has the combined address/data bus and a few control signals so you'd need to translate AD0-AD15 anyways.

 

I have connected intv carts to an FPGA and gotten them to run directly on my core, so it is possible and wasn't too difficult since my core is designed to replicate the intv bus and control signals internally. all I had to do was bring them out and connect them to a cartridge connector thru level translators and it just worked without any other changes.

 

[Shawn]

49 minutes ago, kevtris said:

that depends on the open source license, but generally you need to post the entire project; at least in the case of FPGAs, the entire source for the FPGA portion I'd think.  I am no law talkin' dood expert though (and it will depend on the license).  There could be some kind of "no commercial use allowed" clause too, but this is all speculation.

 

as for 3.3V IOs, you can generally drive 3.3V to the cart without much issue, but if you try to drive 5V into 3.3V IOs (i.e. a data bus) it generally won't go so well.  the AVS (FPGA NES) works this way; it connects most of the cart lines directly to the FPGA which are outputs, and uses 3.3V logic on them, and only level translates the data busses and the inputs (IRQ, CIRAM A10, etc).  This seems to work well enough there.  I personally would level translate the entire bus though to isolate the FPGA from the cartridge port but that's just me.  The intv cart bus is pretty small, it has the combined address/data bus and a few control signals so you'd need to translate AD0-AD15 anyways.

 

I have connected intv carts to an FPGA and gotten them to run directly on my core, so it is possible and wasn't too difficult since my core is designed to replicate the intv bus and control signals internally. all I had to do was bring them out and connect them to a cartridge connector thru level translators and it just worked without any other changes.

 

The perfect icing on the cake would be if BBG got you or at least licensed your INTV core for this console. I swear, Kevin, I would laugh my ass off so hard.

 

EDIT: Stipulate it has to be called the Nemico. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Shawn

[Razzie.P]

14 hours ago, famicommander said:

Have ANY of the Neo Geo branded emulation devices not sucked so far?

I have the Neo Geo Mini International and Arcade Stick Pro and they don't suck.  Especially given the price.  They're not perfect, but I've had more gripes and issues out of some of my "high end/expensive" Analogue stuff than I've had with my 2 Neo Geo gadgets.  If Intellivision manages to crank out something at an equivalent price and quality, they should be proud.

 

.. of course, I guess given Intellivision's track record over recent years, they should be proud if they could manage to do anything that wasn't absolutely ridicule worthy.

[MrBeefy]

6 hours ago, Shawn said:

The perfect icing on the cake would be if BBG got you or at least licensed your INTV core for this console. I swear, Kevin, I would laugh my ass off so hard.

 

EDIT: Stipulate it has to be called the Nemico. 

I second this.

[Matt_B]

Careful now.

 

It's not so long in the past that you'd have been thrown off Atari Age entirely for the mere suggestion that Intellivision should team up with someone who knows what they're doing on the hardware front. 😉

 

 

[famicommander]

6 hours ago, Razzie.P said:

I have the Neo Geo Mini International and Arcade Stick Pro and they don't suck.  Especially given the price.  They're not perfect, but I've had more gripes and issues out of some of my "high end/expensive" Analogue stuff than I've had with my 2 Neo Geo gadgets.  If Intellivision manages to crank out something at an equivalent price and quality, they should be proud.

 

.. of course, I guess given Intellivision's track record over recent years, they should be proud if they could manage to do anything that wasn't absolutely ridicule worthy.

I thought all of the Neo Geo emulation stuff was truly awful. They couldn't even get the button layout right on the mini cabs and most games only freaking use 2 or 3 buttons. And way, way overpriced. Maybe it was okay compared to the AtGames Flashback garbage but I wouldn't pay 50 bucks for any of it, let alone what they actually charged.

[Matt_B]

It looks like this thing is dead in the water already, with the revelation that BBG don't actually have the rights to make a console. Ah well, that was fun while it lasted.

[+GoldLeader]

As far as BBG,  I wish them well...

 

There's actually zero reason those Cornholes at Amico should be in any way keeping them from following through on something grand...

 

However as a consumer and a wary AtariAger,  I won't be preordering anything..Unless The Coleco Chameleon 2 becomes a reality (heh...I jest)

 

Now if they really were to put out something that had cart slots and actually accurately FPGA'd the Amazing Atari,  the Mighty ColecoVision,  and they still had some room left over for the lowly Intellivision...Sure I'd be Hella interested!

[kevtris]

11 minutes ago, Matt_B said:

It looks like this thing is dead in the water already, with the revelation that BBG don't actually have the rights to make a console. Ah well, that was fun while it lasted.

Amusingly, I don't think they need anyones' permission to make an FPGA system that plays intv games, they just can't call it "intellivision" or have built in games (at least not ones that intellivision/bbg have rights to/own). 

[WispFollower]

6 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

Now if they really were to put out something that had cart slots and actually accurately FPGA'd the Amazing Atari,  the Mighty ColecoVision,  and they still had some room left over for the lowly Intellivision...Sure I'd be Hella interested!

Add usb controller connections and maybe a nice spinner controller, and this would be amazing. Somebody's gotta make some stuff like this eventually, right? Right???

[+GoldLeader]

20 hours ago, AtariLeaf said:

As far as I know the TV issue hasn't been completely solved. I still can't use my phoenix on either of my hdtv's. I have to use an hdmi to composite adapter which I kinda actually prefer since it displays nice on a crt but it seems the phoenix has been kind of abandoned by its creators but I could be wrong. I haven't followed it closely the last couple years.

 

(apologies for the quick tangent)

 

As for the Phoenix,  I almost feel bad that I've had such good luck with mine!

 

Now,  I'm not denying some people have had issues...If AtariLeaf says his has issues,  I believe him.

 

I just tried mine out on a new-ish ONN ROKU TV I bought recently at a pawn shop for around $70 and it works just fine.  Looks Great actually!  So for 2 of my 3 TVs,  I have no issues at all!  On the 3rd set,  sometimes after you switch carts,  you need to turn off the system and unplug the HDMI cable for 3 seconds,  then plug it back in,  which is why IIRC the fix is a switchable HDMI input...Either some type of ON/OFF or like 3 Inputs to 1 (HDMI) Output,  etc.

 

I've never tried my Roller Controller or Turbo Steering Wheel so no idea if there are issues there or not...

 

My guess is that CollectorVision et al. had no issues during testing so they were blind-sided by this issue...

 

My camera sucks (badly), but here's the Phoenix!

 

 

And here's a ColecoVision game (SGM game actually) looking Great in real life (God my camera sucks haha).

 

And there's no flicker in this game at all!  Seems smoother than the NES version actually...

 

 

You wanna see Atari on the Phoenix?  I just finished a game of Dark Cavern...

 

 

FWIW,  I've also had no issues at all with Analogue stuff...Yet,  I agree FPGA systems aren't easy.  I wish BBG well...

[Matt_B]

4 hours ago, kevtris said:

Amusingly, I don't think they need anyones' permission to make an FPGA system that plays intv games, they just can't call it "intellivision" or have built in games (at least not ones that intellivision/bbg have rights to/own). 

Sure, they don't need it, and it's not like any of the consoles where you can play Intellivision games ever got permission either. The only current platform with licensed games is, I believe, the Evercade.

 

I'm just not sure what the point of BBG making one would be if they couldn't put the Intellivision software they're presumably paid to license on it. Either it's dead, or some further negotiations are going to have to take place.

[mr_me]

5 hours ago, kevtris said:

Amusingly, I don't think they need anyones' permission to make an FPGA system that plays intv games, they just can't call it "intellivision" or have built in games (at least not ones that intellivision/bbg have rights to/own). 

You don't need anyone's permission to create the hardware or emulate the hardware, even replicate Intellivision controllers.  Any patents expired years ago.  However, it would be unable run almost all Intellivision cartridges and rom files without the Exec firmware which is copyright protected.

 

You can make the system and ask customers to supply the Exec.  But a company like BBG Entertainment isn't going to market something that's incomplete.  A hobby/homebrew project, sure.

 

20 hours ago, kevtris said:

that depends on the open source license, but generally you need to post the entire project; at least in the case of FPGAs, the entire source for the FPGA portion I'd think.  I am no law talkin' dood expert though (and it will depend on the license).  There could be some kind of "no commercial use allowed" clause too, but this is all speculation.

For example, you can have a second core that's closed source and remain closed source.  The support software, e.g. core management, file management, settings and ui, that's traditional programming can be closed source.  You don't have to make the whole project open source to have one core that is open source.

 

Mister is covered by the gnu gpl 3 license.  It's what's called a free and open source license.  Free meaning free of restrictions, so people can charge money for the work if they choose.  One condition is that any modifications are shared back with the same license.

[kevtris]

2 hours ago, mr_me said:

You don't need anyone's permission to create the hardware or emulate the hardware, even replicate Intellivision controllers.  Any patents expired years ago.  However, it would be unable run almost all Intellivision cartridges and rom files without the Exec firmware which is copyright protected.

 

You can make the system and ask customers to supply the Exec.  But a company like BBG Entertainment isn't going to market something that's incomplete.  A hobby/homebrew project, sure.

 

For example, you can have a second core that's closed source and remain closed source.  The support software, e.g. core management, file management, settings and ui, that's traditional programming can be closed source.  You don't have to make the whole project open source to have one core that is open source.

 

Mister is covered by the gnu gpl 3 license.  It's what's called a free and open source license.  Free meaning free of restrictions, so people can charge money for the work if they choose.  One condition is that any modifications are shared back with the same license.

they could easily just write an exec replacement.  its inputs and outputs are known.  but that'd take effort. we've yet to see if bbg is allergic to effort like intellivision entertainment was.

[Flojomojo]

On 8/2/2023 at 10:38 AM, Bill Loguidice said:

It's at least more realistic than those requesting 3DO, Jaguar, Odyssey2, Vectrex, etc., plug and plays. The Intellivision (and ColecoVision) plug and play from AtGames actually did rather well in the pre-NES Mini heights of the category, it just never met the arguably unrealistic retailer expectations. I think, if done well and with only needing to meet modest sales goals made possible by a small and lean operation, it can be its own type of success. It's definitely one of those borderline platforms that can go either way sales-wise depending upon execution.

I think the Intellivision star is in decline but I’d consider buying a well-implemented INTV mini, so long as no money or glory would go to the braintrust behind Amico. 

[digdugnate]

3 hours ago, mr_me said:

You don't need anyone's permission to create the hardware or emulate the hardware, even replicate Intellivision controllers.  Any patents expired years ago.  However, it would be unable run almost all Intellivision cartridges and rom files without the Exec firmware which is copyright protected.

 

You can make the system and ask customers to supply the Exec.  But a company like BBG Entertainment isn't going to market something that's incomplete.  A hobby/homebrew project, sure.

 

For example, you can have a second core that's closed source and remain closed source.  The support software, e.g. core management, file management, settings and ui, that's traditional programming can be closed source.  You don't have to make the whole project open source to have one core that is open source.

 

Mister is covered by the gnu gpl 3 license.  It's what's called a free and open source license.  Free meaning free of restrictions, so people can charge money for the work if they choose.  One condition is that any modifications are shared back with the same license.

 

I'm sure @kevtris appreciates your explanations, there. 🤡

[mr_me]

1 hour ago, kevtris said:

they could easily just write an exec replacement.  its inputs and outputs are known.  but that'd take effort. we've yet to see if bbg is allergic to effort like intellivision entertainment was.

Possibly.  It is a game engine, larger than many of the cartridges.  Not sure if everything is known about it, but that's not needed to create new Intellivision games.  It has a sound library that would have to be replaced with different sounds to avoid infringement.  I always thought theoretically, someone could write a more efficient Exec that could run the cartridges that use Exec speeds at a higher frame rate.

[MrBeefy]

1 hour ago, kevtris said:

they could easily just write an exec replacement.  its inputs and outputs are known.  but that'd take effort. we've yet to see if bbg is allergic to effort like intellivision entertainment was.

How about you make a cart adaptor and market it as bringing families together and sell it at $350 a pop because the DATA shows that's what 3.2 billion casual gamers want.

[rayik]

53 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

I think the Intellivision star is in decline but I’d consider buying a well-implemented INTV mini, so long as no money or glory would go to the braintrust behind Amico. 

If you haven’t yet done do , look at a Mister setup.  Really versatile with large number of consoles, old computers and arcade games. Can get adapters and use original OG controllers for the popular old systems.

 

I’ve found it so good that I’ve put away all my old rgb modded consoles,  switch boxes and upscaler and just use the Mister 

[Shawn]

3 hours ago, mr_me said:

Possibly.  It is a game engine, larger than many of the cartridges.  Not sure if everything is known about it, but that's not needed to create new Intellivision games.  It has a sound library that would have to be replaced with different sounds to avoid infringement.  I always thought theoretically, someone could write a more efficient Exec that could run the cartridges that use Exec speeds at a higher frame rate.

 

Oh ya. Why don't you explain a little more to Kevtris about how all that would work.  

[Wayler]

7 hours ago, mr_me said:

You don't need anyone's permission to create the hardware or emulate the hardware, even replicate Intellivision controllers.  Any patents expired years ago.  However, it would be unable run almost all Intellivision cartridges and rom files without the Exec firmware which is copyright protected.

 

You can make the system and ask customers to supply the Exec.  But a company like BBG Entertainment isn't going to market something that's incomplete.  A hobby/homebrew project, sure.

I'm fascinated to hear your explanation as to how other FPGA consoles run their cartridge games without this magical copyrighted exec firmware. 

[MrBeefy]

37 minutes ago, Shawn said:

Oh ya. Why don't you explain a little more to Kevtris about how all that would work.  

He did listen to Tommy who acted like Kevtris doesn't know about making things. Because you know Tommy is such a reliable source of information. 🤣

 

Beep boop