3.5" Floppy drive?

[Vyvyan B.]

With all the latest mods and upgrades and homebrew doodads, I'm surprised to see that there are no 3.5 floppy drive controllers. USB 3.5 drives are readily available on Amazon for less than $20 shipped. Could this not be done with an UNO R3 as a controller in the same vein of the SDRIVE Max, perhaps with a 3d printed enclosure?

Edited September 10, 2022 by Vyvyan B.

[Havok69]

Something like this?

 

3.5" Drive for the Atari 8bit computer

[+Larry]

There have been several small runs of 3.5 drives.  I'm not sure if it is the same guy as in the video, but my recollection is that he goes by the name of Zaxon.  He has two types IIRC -- an XF compatible type and a Maxi Drive type.  He sold on sellmyretro.com.  UK, I think.  Anyway, that might help you get you a little closer.

 

[Vyvyan B.]

31 minutes ago, Havok69 said:

Something like this?

 

3.5" Drive for the Atari 8bit computer

Yes. Exactly like that. 👍 Too bad the video does not provide any information about how it works or the type of interface/controller he is using.

[Stefan Both]

What would be the advantage over a 5¼" drive? (Compared to SD Card solutions?)

Both are not original, both can't handle copy protectios. But even 3½" disks are outdated, whereas SD solutions are much more easier regarding file exchange (old <=> new computers).

I don't want to talk the topic to death in principle, it's more about a kind of awakening demand creation for myself.

 

Stefan 

 

[Vyvyan B.]

43 minutes ago, Stefan Both said:

What would be the advantage over a 5¼" drive?

 

None whatsoever 😁 I just thought it would be cool to have a little mini 3d printed 3.5" 720k 1050 or 810 that used real disks. Plus I have a crap-ton of old 3.5 floppies from when I was a kid. I was going to order one of those external 3.5 to go through them, maybe I'll just have to order two of them. Theoretically, an Arduino could be used as a controller, no?

[TGB1718]

And don't forget, 3 1/2" drives are notoriously unreliable compared to 5 1/4", I have about 7 X 3 1/2"

drives and only 2 are still working and that was after a lot of sweat and tears to get them going.

 

My 1050's just keep working, only fault in the entire time I've had them was a track zero sensor.

 

Also the floppy disks themselves don't seem to have as good a shelf life as 5 1/4".

 

From personal experience most of my ST floppy's don't work compared to about 90% of my 8 bit 5 1/4" which do.

Both stored in the same conditions over the years.

[+slx]

4 minutes ago, TGB1718 said:

And don't forget, 3 1/2" drives are notoriously unreliable compared to 5 1/4"

I built up my second (and last) Windows PC in the early 2000s when regular use of floppies gradually faded towards downloads and USB sticks. Its 3,5 floppy wouldn't read discs any more after a few years of very light or no use while my 810 still works over 30 years later.... 

[BillC]

1 hour ago, Vyvyan B. said:

Yes. Exactly like that. 👍 Too bad the video does not provide any information about how it works or the type of interface/controller he is using.

The video states that the drive is based on an XF551 controller, so the XF551 circuitry would have been downsized to fit the chassis. The video also states that one firmware is HyperXF, the most likely alternate firmware is the Bob Wooley modded 720KB. Both firmware are probably in a single larger EPROM with the switch selecting which version is active.

[gilsaluki]

... to tag on.  I too wished for a 3.5 drive bad when Bob Whooley held one up in his palm in that famous photo.  But, has been noted, 3.5s have proven unreliable compared to 5.25s.  I have only had one commercial 5.25 disk go south on me in all my years. 

[gilsaluki]

Who can really spell Bob's last name?   Pic of him with his 3.5.   "I can't drive, 3.5!"  S. Hagar. 

https://www.atarimagazines.com/v8n5/XF35Kit.html

[Beeblebrox]

I used to have the Micro discount 3.5" drive interface in the 90s.  Still have all the 3.5" disks.  Storage wise now we have SD based mediums IMHO there isn't much use for it.  SIDE3,  Incognito,  Atarimax 8Mbit carts AND SIO2PC are all I use these days for all my A8s. 

 

 

[gilsaluki]

Antic Matthew Rattcliff said, "At one time Atari had intended to produce a 3.5-inch disk drive for their 8-bit computers to replace the aging 1050, a 5.25-inch model."  That was 1989.  If the 1050 was aging then, what is the 1050 now!?  Mine still is humming along.  Knock on old forest wood.  

[Vyvyan B.]

30 minutes ago, BillC said:

The video states that the drive is based on an XF551 controller, so the XF551 circuitry would have been downsized to fit the chassis. The video also states that one firmware is HyperXF, the most likely alternate firmware is the Bob Wooley modded 720KB. Both firmware are probably in a single larger EPROM with the switch selecting which version is active.

Must have missed that part, thought I watched the whole thing. He still didn't show the internals. But starting with a fresh new USB floppy should be easier than trying to recreate XF551 circuitry and hacking up a 30 year old floppy drive that may or may not work anyway.

[Vyvyan B.]

32 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Storage wise now we have SD based mediums IMHO there isn't much use for it.  SIDE3,  Incognito,  Atarimax 8Mbit carts AND SIO2PC are all I use these days for all my A8s. 

 

 

I only recently got into these ole 8-bit machines since my uncle retired and gave me a TON of his old stuff before he moved. I have an SDRIVE, but honestly, I rather like using the disks and the machines themselves in the way they were originally.

[Mr Robot]

There's a Kryoflux case in 1050 style

 

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3287420

 

[xrbrevin]

theres something nostalgic about the chug of a drive stepper motor.

even gotek drive emulators have provision for a piezo buzzer to replicate the old sound - in time with the emulated track-seeking!

[ZuluGula]

1 hour ago, Vyvyan B. said:

I have an SDRIVE, but honestly, I rather like using the disks and the machines themselves in the way they were originally.

I'm not aware of any Atari 8bit software released on 3.5" disks.

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 9/10/2022 at 1:13 PM, Vyvyan B. said:

USB 3.5 drives are readily available on Amazon for less than $20 shipped.

I have three of those that I've bought over the years, and all of them have significant limitations and/or caveats.  From what I recall:

• Regardless of manufacturer, all three appear to use the same drive and controller
• None of them are equipped to deal with disk capacities other than 1.44MB
• Never managed to get one to work as a boot device on appropriate-era hardware
  • May be a BIOS issue with the machine(s) in question more than anything else, but is worth mentioning
• MTBF can almost be measured in number of disks inserted using both hands

I'd spend a bit more and go for a guaranteed-working internal unit and floppy-to-USB adapter before going with one of the modern USB-only units again.

[+x=usr(1536)]

4 minutes ago, ZuluGula said:

I'm not aware of any Atari 8bit software released on 3.5" disks.

I don't believe that there was anything that was ever released commercially, but there were a tiny number of PD / User Group disks released on 3.5".

[+bf2k+]

I have some 3.5" backup floppies from the late  80's early 90's that I would like to get into...

[Vyvyan B.]

59 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

I have three of those that I've bought over the years, and all of them have significant limitations and/or caveats

Like this one? They all do appear to be the same. Some of them say they will read/write 720k disks, some simply don't say anything. Did 1.44 and 720 drives use the same type disk? All the disks I have knocking about are from mid 90s to early 2000s so I don't have any 720k to test with.

 

[reifsnyderb]

3 minutes ago, Vyvyan B. said:

Like this one? They all do appear to be the same. Some of them say they will read/write 720k disks, some simply don't say anything. Did 1.44 and 720 drives use the same type disk? All the disks I have knocking about are from mid 90s to early 2000s so I don't have any 720k to test with.

 

That's a USB model.  It's very thin, too.  I'd guess it's a 1.44MB drive as the earlier drives were much larger and I only saw USB floppy floppy drives around the time floppy disks were near their end of life.

[+x=usr(1536)]

12 hours ago, Vyvyan B. said:

Like this one? They all do appear to be the same. Some of them say they will read/write 720k disks, some simply don't say anything.

That's pretty much the same unit, yes.  The ones that I've bought have all claimed 720KB compatibility, but none deliver it.  This is under multiple operating systems, FWIW.

12 hours ago, Vyvyan B. said:

Did 1.44 and 720 drives use the same type disk? All the disks I have knocking about are from mid 90s to early 2000s so I don't have any 720k to test with.

There are physical differences in the disk housing (see this link for a decent summary), but in general a 1.44MB drive should be able to read a 720KB (or 360KB) floppy.  The newer the drive, however, the less likely that is to be the case - even some end-of-the-floppy-era internal drives didn't handle sub-1.44MB disks properly.

 

And don't even get me started on IBM's 2.88MB format used on some PS/2 machines.

11 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

I'd guess it's a 1.44MB drive as the earlier drives were much larger and I only saw USB floppy floppy drives around the time floppy disks were near their end of life.

Yep.  IIRC, they started popping up after Apple began releasing floppyless iMacs and G3s and the rest of the industry decided to follow suit.

[Dropcheck]

There is a 3 1/2 in a 1050 case option if you want to go that route.  1035  It's not via USB as the Atari at present doesn't have the ability to handle native direct USB connections.  In combination with TBA I designed an XF551 based circuitry to fit either a standard or slimline compatible 3.5" disk drive into a 1050 case.  It is a made to order option and no at this point I don't offer a bare pcb due to the contract with Marlin.  TBA may have that option if you ask.  It is not a build for the faint of heart and not inexpensive.

 

Also I designed a SF551 board to fit into the Atari ST SF314 case.  It uses the case, power supply and drive mech of the SF314 and custom made 13DIN to SIO cables to attach to an Atari 8bit.  The pcb hosts the necessary XF551 circuitry to allow it to communicate with the Atari 8bit machines.  I did offer the bare pcb and BOM list on my website until the boards sold out a week or two back.  It also is not a build for the faint of heart. 

 

Then there is of course the modification of a standard 5 1/4" XF551 to handle compatible 3 1/2" drive mechs.  It is the simplest and easiest  to do requiring only a compatible 3.5" drive, ROM and a internal power/data cable change.  A search through the forum posts should turn up at least one well written guide.  Others also created their own versions of a XF551 -> 3.5" disk drive mashup.

 

My own experience with Amiga/IBM clone 3.5" disks and drives is that they do tend to be less reliable than 5 1/4" drives.  I suspect it has to do with tighter tolerances needed to pack more data onto a smaller space rather than inherent physical defects.  Amiga computers expected at least 880k and IBM clones ranged from 720k to a massive 2.88M on the same physical size media.  Nearly four or five times the maximum Atari 8bit 5.25" floppy disk size.  That being said, it's a wonder that any of these creations are still working at all thirty and forty years after manufacture.  It's hardly surprising that many don't.  Much less the humans that love to tinker with them because they had them when they themselves were teens or in their twenties and remember them fondly.