What Jaguar games were able to reach 60fps? What 3D games were able to reach 30fps?

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, cubanismo said:

Tools & bugs theory aside, I largely agree with @Chinese Cake about context. It was 1993 when this thing came out. It was $250 then and a lot less soon after. Doom required a PC that cost about 10x that to run reasonably well at the time. A 3DO was more than twice that price, closer to 3x. The Jaguar was a technical marvel for its time. Everyone went apeshit when Playstation launched for $299 (With no game, no memory card), which was still $50 more than the Jaguar's launch price (Included a game, which in turn had a built-in EEPROM), and of course that $299 was in the context of Saturn launching at $399, which at least came with a game and some built-in battery-backed save game memory, and both those launched nearly 2 years later. N64, which at least matched the price but didn't include a game, came fully 3 years later.

 

Marketing/sales-wise, we all know what happened, but I still maintain the Jaguar was an engineering marvel when you account for the constraints applied (cost, mostly, but also the tiny size of the team developing it), and that remains one of the main reasons my interest in it was rekindled 25 years later when I could better appreciate these purely technical achievements.

You technically agreed with me, not chinesecake. As I wrote about being careful with context.  And he wrote quite the opposite of what we are thinking, e.g. computers were "cheap" and with an upgrade matching Jaguars performance.

Edited October 27, 2022 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, 42bs said:

Some more history: From the report of the European premier of the Jaguar October 94:

- "the fast and impressive polygon graphics of Iron Soldier"

- "the impressive speed and atmosphere of AvP"

 

So really FPS depends on the mileage and the context (and maybe age, 52 year old eyes like mine get confused above 10 FPS )

 

A big german magazine "video games" rated AvP 90% and lauded the smooth and detailed graphics. 

I can't remember we complained about frame rate, the game felt heavy and slow, but we thought it matched the simulation feel and mood of the game.

 

Iron Soldiers graphics were really impressive, coming from PC games like Xwing or Starfox on the Super FX chip. 

The Jaguar really felt like a step up. And a friend had a new 486 and was still impressed by the 3D graphics.

 

 

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, Lostdragon said:

Edit. 

 

Found the text I was looking for. 

 

 

Jeff Minter talking about Defender 2K

 

 

Graphics. Obviously use upgraded ship and enemy graphics and a prettier scrolling backdrop. Spectacular explosions done using some variant of pixelshatter, because they fit well with Defender, also they have become a bit of a trademark effect for me after T2K and people will be expecting them. I intend to play about with warping backgrounds using the olp/gpu combination (indeed I intend to use the olp a lot more than I did in t2k, where it was largely Idle), which could yield some nice abstract scrolling backdrops (eg, as a possibility use the blitter to melt a 'flame' kinda effect on a smallish bitmap, then use that bitmap scaled/wibbled by the gpu/olp as a tile to make a backdrop

 

 

Sounds like he pushed the hardware more with D2K than Tempest, now he was more familiar with it. 

Minter said that Atari was not too convinced about Tempest 2000 being a good showcase for the Jaguar. 

And he admitted that 3D was a new venture for him. 

So, I guess with more experience, rewriting the renderer, the frame rate could be improved. 

[agradeneu]

10 hours ago, Chinese Cake said:

 

 

 

For example, I found an old post of yours that gave the following frame rates:

1. Checkered Flag: 9 fps
2. Skyhammer: 9-12fps
3. Hover Strike CD: 9-11fps
4. World Tour Racing: 9fps

 

Those are all similar frame rates (measured by you) yet those games are not pushing the same graphical fidelity. The expectations would usually be for most people at the time that between these 4 games, Checkered Flag should have had a significantly higher frame rate than it does compared to the others,

 

I gave those figures? Well, treat them as rough estimates. They could be higher or lower.

 

Yes, it should, but CF is a bad game.

HS and Skyhammer are really pushing the hardware with textures. I was very disappointed with WTR, I don't know why a lot of ppl think it was so much better than CF. 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by agradeneu

[LordKraken]

To have tried to give a chance (again) to Checkered Flag, I doubt it reaches even 9fps, but admittely the weird control make things worse.

[Chinese Cake]

8 hours ago, 42bs said:

Just checked a magazine from 1994, a 030 card for the ST/STE was about 1000DM, a Falcon 1400DM and the Jaguar 540DM (randomly picked offer).

AvP did cost 150DM.

The average salary in Germany was 2900DM.
So cheap? Bei no means no.

 

7 hours ago, agradeneu said:

But I agree, the claim of cheap home computers is hilarious, these things were really expensive compared to consoles.

 

It's not hilarious at all and both of you aren't considering the country in question. The Amiga and ST were oftentimes more expensive in Europe than the US, you could get an AMIGA with a 030 for $599 in 1993 with other accessories, just the 030and/or Amiga much cheaper. There were also clearance sales for the Atari ST model stuff (aside from the Falcon) as Atari was abandoning computers, and those prices got cheaper and cheaper from 1993 throughout 1994.

 

In 1994, this same thing happened with the Amiga, and then accelerated when bad news about Commodore came in.

 

Even before that these computers were cheaper than Europe by a notable margin because both computers weren't gaining ground and had failed in the US, cheap prices and sales were the only way to move units for years. The US isn't like Europe where these computers were actually moving stock. Computer stores were off-loading stock instead, by 1995 I didn't see any Amigas or ST's around any big or smaller computer stores or general electronic retailers, except a circuit city which had a backstock of Amigas, and a few independent retailers. All that space was replaced by various PC brands, and some had a section for Macintosh. In fact, I regret not stocking up during 1995 because CC was selling Amigas across models from $99-$150 clearance and various compatible products for them from 40-70% off. You could make good money selling that stuff these days.

 

 

7 hours ago, agradeneu said:

You technically agreed with me, not chinesecake. As I wrote about being careful with context.  And he wrote quite the opposite of what we are thinking, e.g. computers were "cheap" and with an upgrade matching Jaguars performance.

I wasn't arguing the opposite, the issue you aren't recognizing is that to the average person, a game like Checkered Flag didn't look like a leap to a game like Grand Prix (by Microprose iirc) on the Micros, they only see two games that look like they are simple, no-complex, low poly, and lacking details, and wondering why the Jaguar isn't running CF at a higher frame rate (when looking at gamepaly) running those simple graphics, instead having similar frame rates to those (weaker as i said before) computers.

 

I never said they "matched" the jaguar either. To the average person, CF and GP will look similar in their complexity. These are people who look at clips or magazine screenshots and come to a conclusion within seconds. This is one of the many problems that created the negative reputation the Jaguar received, whether it was fair or not. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Chinese Cake

[Chinese Cake]

6 hours ago, agradeneu said:

I gave those figures? Well, treat them as rough estimates. They could be higher or lower.

 

You actually said they were estimates later in that thread (was over a decade ago so it's reasonable you don't remember) another gentlemen who claimed they had "real" measured numbers, posted numbers for a few games in the thread:

 

1. HS CD i measure 12-15 
2. WTR i measure 12-15 
3. AvP i measure 9-11

 

Which are minor bumps from what you posted, but it doesn't change the problem.

 

He also posted these separately:

• Iron Soldier 25-30fps
• BIWN 12-15fps dependent upon angles

 

Not sure about those Iron Soldier numbers, but if true that's impressive. 

 

But even all these frame rates are still within the same range of each other, regardless if the game is simple and flat, adds minor texturing and shading, adds all kinds of effects and angles, or tries to have multiple-moving textured objects on screen. The frame rate SHOULD increase as you go backwards on this list. 

 

That's a problem people often have with the Jaguar, is the consistency of the (low) frame rates across games, regardless of what the game is doing.

 

People don't shit on WTR frame rate because they (imo wrongfully) think it's the best or close to the best the Jaguar can do, but no one believes that applies to CF, CD, or various other simpler games so are confused as to why the frame rate is not high with those games, compared with more complex 3D polygonal Jaguar games.

 

On all the other consoles except in some cases the N64, this doesn't happen to the same degree. 

 

 

Quote

Yes, it should, but CF is a bad game.

HS and Skyhammer are really pushing the hardware with textures. I was very disappointed with WTR, I don't know why a lot of ppl think it was so much better than CF. 

 

Probably due to the biggest complaints with CF bang jank animations (like the car crashing or flipping) and players often flying off the track hitting objects. WTR doesn't run well, but at first glance looks like a more complex game which is all the average jow needs to see, it is consistent in its performance, and is easier to control. I've seen people claim it's among the best at balancing graphics and performance on the Jaguar. I don't agree with that, but i can understand why some people think so if they are just taking a cursory look at the jaguars library, without paying close attention to what each game does.

 

2 hours ago, LordKraken said:

To have tried to give a chance (again) to Checkered Flag, I doubt it reaches even 9fps, but admittely the weird control make things worse.

While I haven't seen much talk of actual numbers, many say that the game has an erratic frame rate and often dips below 10, so it could very well dip below 9fps often. 

 

There used to be a guy years ago who did frame rate videos for obscure systems but it appears that channel no longer exists. It would be cool if someone started using modern tech solutions to upload new frame rate videos on consoles like this. it would gives us a picture on how things progressed (or regressed) from 1993-1999.

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Chinese Cake

[JagChris]

Atari Owl use to dissect frame rates. He had a technique he used I'm not sure what it was. He seemed pretty good at it and also seemed to enjoy it.

[+cubanismo]

8 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Sounds like he pushed the hardware more with D2K than Tempest, now he was more familiar with it. 

I don't know that what he is saying indicates that. It sounds like he just didn't use the OP much in T2K, but it still could have (and probably did) max out the GPU+Blitter+memory bus while making at least some use of the DSP (it sounds great, right?), which would still qualify as pushing the hardware to the limits IMHO. You don't necessarily need to light up every transistor to reach some limit of the overall system. In the Jaguar, as in many systems, the "limit" is usually the memory bus.

[+cubanismo]

7 hours ago, agradeneu said:

I don't know why a lot of ppl think it was so much better than CF. 

Because after practice, I can go around a track consistently without hitting a wall and flipping my car. The music is also... Well it has some while racing, but mostly it's just that it's a game not a random wall-collision simulator.

[+Stephen]

5 minutes ago, cubanismo said:

I don't know that what he is saying indicates that. It sounds like he just didn't use the OP much in T2K, but it still could have (and probably did) max out the GPU+Blitter+memory bus while making at least some use of the DSP (it sounds great, right?), which would still qualify as pushing the hardware to the limits IMHO. You don't necessarily need to light up every transistor to reach some limit of the overall system. In the Jaguar, as in many systems, the "limit" is usually the memory bus.

Well, given that T2K is running 20ish fps, and there is slowdown, it's obviously pushing the hardware else it would be a smooth steady 60fps.

 

T2K was the game that I bought my 1st Jag with, and it was incredibly impressive at the time.  It was only when I returned to it after seeing Tempest 3000 on the Nuon, and Space Giraffe on the XBox 360 that it looked slow and choppy to me.  So as has been mentioned, context is everything for these games.

 

Same thing with many 1st gen PSX games.  They were the most amazing things I had seen at the time, but to gack and look at them now, with their shimmering not perspective corrected textures, and they look awful.

[+cubanismo]

1 hour ago, Chinese Cake said:

It's not hilarious at all and both of you aren't considering the country in question. The Amiga and ST

Anyone ported Doom to these yet? How does it run?

[alucardX]

23 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Well, given that T2K is running 20ish fps, and there is slowdown, it's obviously pushing the hardware else it would be a smooth steady 60fps.

It might also be optimization problems.

[42bs]

14 minutes ago, alucardX said:

It might also be optimization problems.

So what. It still pushes the limit. I'd say any coder likes to have her game run at full speed. Means on the Jaguar at 50 or 60 FPS. 

BTW in the voxel demo you can modify the visual depth and see an instant effect on the frame rate. I guess it pushes the limits of GPU and Blitter, though the DSP is currently off.

 

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, Chinese Cake said:

 

 

 

a game like Checkered Flag didn't look like a leap to a game like Grand Prix (by Microprose iirc) on the Micros, they only see two games that look like they are simple, no-complex, low poly, and lacking details, and wondering why the Jaguar isn't running CF at a higher frame rate (when looking at gamepaly) running those simple graphics, instead having similar frame rates to those (weaker as i said before) computers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CF is much more detailed than GP or Stunt Racer, more polygons rendered, more colors, more shadings or effects like fog.

 

 

It should run faster, considering the specs, but a lot of Jaguar programmers were just learning the system. Expierenced coders like Eclipse or Carmack figured the hardware out and achieved much better results.

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by agradeneu

[Chinese Cake]

38 minutes ago, cubanismo said:

Anyone ported Doom to these yet? How does it run?

I mean the Falcon sure, easy.

 

Maybe a strong mega model with upgrades can to? Not sure if it will be fast )or full screen, maybe)

 

Amiga? No, people have tried they aren't getting anywhere, and there are a lot of guys saying they can do it on Amiga forums and came up with nothing.

 

Doom may not be "3D(TM)" for "R.E.A.L." but the method the game uses for graphics, animations, and so forth are still taxing on many game machines, which is why to run it on stuff like the SNES you basically needed to make heavy compromises. I'm not sure how far late ST models go but it's possible that an expensive upgraded Mega something or a TT could possibly do Doom full screen. Falcon is the only device I am more than 100$ sure can run Doom and then some.

 

I've heard people say the Amiga 4K can do Doom but no one has successfully ported Doom over. I just don't thin Amiga is built for that type of game, especially full screen. 

 

43 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Well, given that T2K is running 20ish fps, and there is slowdown, it's obviously pushing the hardware else it would be a smooth steady 60fps.

One could make that same argument for Checkered Flag though lol. I don't think T2K was pushing the jaguar, it's just what Jeff Minter could do at the time. Someone in this thread posted a quote where he said he felt he did more with D2K than T2K.

 

I agree with that, although it runs at 30fps(?) it moves surprising smooth, and the screen is filled with partial effects and enemies kind of colorfully materialize in, and as enemies and bullets (or you powerups) move across the screen as you scroll around the action rarely slows down. I think it's underrated in jaguar 2D graphical discussions, the other one being that Motorcycle game. 

 

16 minutes ago, alucardX said:

It might also be optimization problems.

Most likely.

 

48 minutes ago, cubanismo said:

Because after practice, I can go around a track consistently without hitting a wall and flipping my car. The music is also... Well it has some while racing, but mostly it's just that it's a game not a random wall-collision simulator.

 

It makes a damn fine wall-collision simulator though. if you want the feeling of constantly slippery controls and having your car hit stuff like Pole Position, but in 3D, Checkered Flag is your game. 

 

 

 

 

 

[agradeneu]

6 minutes ago, 42bs said:

So what. It still pushes the limit. I'd say any coder likes to have her game run at full speed. Means on the Jaguar at 50 or 60 FPS. 

BTW in the voxel demo you can modify the visual depth and see an instant effect on the frame rate. I guess it pushes the limits of GPU and Blitter, though the DSP is currently off.

 

He said his renderer could be faster. He was rather humble about it.

 

The particles/pixel effects are really the impressive part of the graphics. 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by agradeneu

[alucardX]

14 minutes ago, 42bs said:

So what. It still pushes the limit. I'd say any coder likes to have her game run at full speed. Means on the Jaguar at 50 or 60 FPS. 

BTW in the voxel demo you can modify the visual depth and see an instant effect on the frame rate. I guess it pushes the limits of GPU and Blitter, though the DSP is currently off.

 

Yeah, I guess "pushing the limit" is a relative idea in some respects. I was just thinking in terms of your T2K example that having a renderer or something else going on in the game that isn't very efficient could cause slowdown. It wouldn't really be a good example of "pushing the system" so much as "holding the system back". We could write some very poorly optimized code that is not utilizing the system well at all and make it look like the Jaguar can't even play Mario Bros.

[agradeneu]

Well I could argue the infamous FEAR port pushes the PS3 hardware  so hard that it looks butt ugly and performs miserably.

 

But I guees that is not the point of pushing a system.

 

After playing this (launch) title you won't believe the same hardware is running Uncharted 2 or GTA 5. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by agradeneu

[Lostdragon]

11 hours ago, 42bs said:

Some more history: From the report of the European premier of the Jaguar October 94:

- "the fast and impressive polygon graphics of Iron Soldier"

- "the impressive speed and atmosphere of AvP"

 

So really FPS depends on the mileage and the context (and maybe age, 52 year old eyes like mine get confused above 10 FPS )

 

Was that before AVP had the framerate-killing A. I routines added I wonder? 

[agradeneu]

13 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

Was that before AVP had the framerate-killing A. I routines added I wonder? 

AvP released October, so no. Like I said before, the frame rate was not considered a big problem in that time.

[Chinese Cake]

2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

CF is much more detailed than GP or Stunt Racer.

 

Yes, but the average person doesn't pay attention to that, they look at clips and screenshots, which often aren't done to make the Jaguar look good.

 

2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

It should run faster, considering the specs, but a lot of Jaguar programmers were just learning the system. Expierenced coders like Eclipse or Carmack figured the hardware out and achieved much better results.

 

But then we also have releases by experienced polygonal devs that don't improve frame rates at all. There's nothing quite like the Jaguar were you can have games using more or less of the hardware, but still have a large number of them (3D polygonal games) all have similar frame rates instead of more variation. The fact this was still a problem late in the consoles life added another strike against the Jaguar for its reputation instead of having old perceptions improve over time. One of the reasons why most people don't give the frame rates on the jaguar specifically, a pass for the time unlike people here.

 

Our of curiosity I wanted to look at other 1994 games that came out the same year:

 

 

32X didn't help with that either, and sold close to $100 less and beat Sega's projections for the year. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Chinese Cake

[agradeneu]

32 minutes ago, Chinese Cake said:

 

Yes, but the average person doesn't pay attention to that, they look at clips and screenshots, which often aren't done to make the Jaguar look good.

 

 

But then we also have releases by experienced polygonal devs that don't improve frame rates at all. There's nothing quite like the Jaguar were you can have games using more or less of the hardware, but still have a large number of them (3D polygonal games) all have similar frame rates instead of more variation. The fact this was still a problem late in the consoles life added another strike against the Jaguar for its reputation instead of having old perceptions improve over time. One of the reasons why most people don't give the frame rates on the jaguar specifically, a pass for the time unlike people here.

 

Our of curiosity I wanted to look at other 1994 games that came out the same year:

 

 

32X didn't help with that either, and sold close to $100 less and beat Sega's projections for the year. 

 

 

 

 

Then please post a screen of the 32X version, not the Arcade game! The give away was the transparent shadow (32X has dithering) and the high poly mountains/draw distance.

 

Here is an actual screen from the 32x version:

Edited October 27, 2022 by agradeneu

[roots.genoa]

55 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

The give away was the transparent shadow (32X has dithering)

Look closer, the arcade version has dithering too, just at a better resolution. SEGA always favored dithering transparencies... 😅

At least the 32X had an orange bridge like in the arcade version, while the bridge used dithering red and yellow on Genesis.

[LordKraken]

Actually,

5 hours ago, Chinese Cake said:

 

Amiga? No, people have tried they aren't getting anywhere, and there are a lot of guys saying they can do it on Amiga forums and came up with nothing.

Actually, Doom is now running on Amiga.