Atari 2600 CleanComp Composite Mod - Feedback & Testing

[+x=usr(1536)]

8 hours ago, batari said:

I think the major drawback of the UAV is that it requires spaghetti-wiring and this (and other similar video mods) have always been a bit janky. Solder is not designed to make mechanical connections such as wires to IC pins or other points on the PCB.

Not disagreeing with your point re: solder not being intended for mechanical connections, but in fairness to the UAV: it was designed to be used in the XL/XE lines, not any of the other machines it has expanded to cover.  If the device in question has a 4050, it's pretty much a plug-and-play installation.  If it doesn't, wiring will have to be run to the various signal pickup points on the machine's PCB.

8 hours ago, batari said:

I mean, I do understand that the UAV is "universal" and although it's cool that this one mod can work with everything

It's probably safer to say that it's universal with varying degrees of installation complexity depending on the machine that it's going into.

8 hours ago, batari said:

with low-run PCBs so much easier to get now, there's no reason why better console-specific mods could not be created instead

With the UAV, it's a case of 'one board, many installation methods'; with the machine-specific approach, it's 'many boards, one installation method'.  Effectively, this would mean having different SKUs for each machine that it could be used in and having to anticipate demand for each one when doing production runs.

 

Note that I'm not arguing against the system-specific idea, but can see where having one highly-adaptable board has some definite advantages.

8 hours ago, batari said:

and especially, I would like to see a move away from the old spaghetti-wiring methods. Many of my older spaghetti mods have come loose over the years just from transporting consoles around.

This I do agree with.  However, UAV installation is only as spaghettified as circumstances dictate - or the end user prefers.

 

The first couple of UAV installs that I did were very much by-the-book, plug-and-play, sticking to the manual.  This helped me to see where those approaches - while generally fine - may not necessarily suit my specific needs.  That's where the UAV's flexibility really came into its own.

 

In any event, there are things I would like to see in a UAV 2.0 if they could be packaged into the same footprint - audio handling, for one, and a chroma timing pot.  Keeping that footprint (or as close to it as possible) is key, though - it fits everywhere, even if at times that means like it's in a tin of sardines 

[EricG76]

11 hours ago, batari said:

I think the major drawback of the UAV is that it requires spaghetti-wiring and this (and other similar video mods) have always been a bit janky. Solder is not designed to make mechanical connections such as wires to IC pins or other points on the PCB.

This is partly why I ordered the CleanComp instead of UAV.  Even though it would have been cheaper and faster to get UAV here in U.S.  I left a review by email request of RetroSix and he agreed that bypassing audio and connecting audio directly was best option for now.  Here is the response they left:

 

"Thanks for the feedback. Audio is fixed for now just soldering direct to TIA audio pin. The issue appears to be a slight 0.2V blending of the LUMA passing through the same buffer as the audio. The buffer isn't needed it was just additional, so you can just go before the buffer (directly to the TIA audio output) to fix that. Working on the vertical bars that remain on the next version. Think it is high frequency common mode noise that needs additional filtering."

[+batari]

6 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Not disagreeing with your point re: solder not being intended for mechanical connections, but in fairness to the UAV: it was designed to be used in the XL/XE lines, not any of the other machines it has expanded to cover.  If the device in question has a 4050, it's pretty much a plug-and-play installation.  If it doesn't, wiring will have to be run to the various signal pickup points on the machine's PCB.

It's probably safer to say that it's universal with varying degrees of installation complexity depending on the machine that it's going into.

With the UAV, it's a case of 'one board, many installation methods'; with the machine-specific approach, it's 'many boards, one installation method'.  Effectively, this would mean having different SKUs for each machine that it could be used in and having to anticipate demand for each one when doing production runs.

 

Note that I'm not arguing against the system-specific idea, but can see where having one highly-adaptable board has some definite advantages.

This I do agree with.  However, UAV installation is only as spaghettified as circumstances dictate - or the end user prefers.

 

The first couple of UAV installs that I did were very much by-the-book, plug-and-play, sticking to the manual.  This helped me to see where those approaches - while generally fine - may not necessarily suit my specific needs.  That's where the UAV's flexibility really came into its own.

 

In any event, there are things I would like to see in a UAV 2.0 if they could be packaged into the same footprint - audio handling, for one, and a chroma timing pot.  Keeping that footprint (or as close to it as possible) is key, though - it fits everywhere, even if at times that means like it's in a tin of sardines 

There is no need anymore for one versatile device that does everything. I get the slight advantages in the production cost, but inevitably the versatility comes at a cost to the consumer in terms of quality. The days of needing huge production runs are long over.

 

It kind of reminds me of an amphibious car I saw at a museum a bit ago. Sure, it could drive across a lake and drive on the street but it was not a great car, and it was a terrible boat. Much better to have a separate car and boat that are designed specifically for those things. I know it's not a perfect analogy but, say, the UAV would be better if there were one SKU for the 8-bits with a (socketed!) 4050, and without the "versatility" perhaps even this could be made better than it is. Especially for a socketed install, smaller is better - as I pointed out earlier, socketed installs are prone to pop out, and this is worse the bigger the board is.

 

Then, separate SKUs for other 8-bits, and one for the 7800, and 2600, that use a solid board-to-board connections, rather than the requisite clumsy wiring.

 

What I am saying is give the customer the best product possible, and that means specific devices rather than one that "does it all."

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 minute ago, batari said:

There is no need anymore for one versatile device that does everything.

I'd counter that the need is still there, but that it's application-specific.  More:

1 minute ago, batari said:

I get the slight advantages in the production cost, but inevitably the versatility comes at a cost to the consumer in terms of quality. The days of needing huge production runs are long over.

All of which I am in agreement with, especially the quality equation.  If a higher-quality alternative can be developed that can be sold at the same or lower cost, I'm 100% behind it.  If it costs fractionally more, depending on the boost in quality and / or features, I can also see the benefits.  However:

1 minute ago, batari said:

It kind of reminds me of an amphibious car I saw at a museum a bit ago. Sure, it could drive across a lake and drive on the street but it was not a great car, and it was a terrible boat. Much better to have a separate car and boat that are designed specifically for those things.

My guess is that you were looking at an Amphicar.  And you're right: speaking from experience, they're not very good at being either cars or boats.

 

Sticking with an automobile analogy for the moment, though, the way I'm looking at it is more akin to when a manufacturer shares platforms and/or components across its model range to achieve greater economies of scale.  I'm not arguing for a strict one-size-fits-all approach since that almost never works, but a Bentley uses some of the same components as a Volkswagen does - just adapted to the Bentley's requirements.

1 minute ago, batari said:

I know it's not a perfect analogy but, say, the UAV would be better if there were one SKU for the 8-bits with a (socketed!) 4050, and without the "versatility" perhaps even this could be made better than it is. Especially for a socketed install, smaller is better - as I pointed out earlier, socketed installs are prone to pop out, and this is worse the bigger the board is.

I think we may be saying the same thing from slightly different directions 

1 minute ago, batari said:

Then, separate SKUs for other 8-bits, and one for the 7800, and 2600, that use a solid board-to-board connections, rather than the requisite clumsy wiring.

 

What I am saying is give the customer the best product possible, and that means specific devices rather than one that "does it all."

Totally agreed.

[+batari]

37 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Sticking with an automobile analogy for the moment, though, the way I'm looking at it is more akin to when a manufacturer shares platforms and/or components across its model range to achieve greater economies of scale.  I'm not arguing for a strict one-size-fits-all approach since that almost never works, but a Bentley uses some of the same components as a Volkswagen does - just adapted to the Bentley's requirements.

I think this analogy would be more relevant if the UAV were produced in the millions. So I am guessing we would be talking, at the highest end, say 500 units a year of the UAV vs. say, 100-150 each of the separate SKUs. The price differences are going to be very negligible.

 

So a better analogy would be a very small car company. If they have 5 models that sell 100 each, it might save them a very small amount to order 500 identical engines instead of 100 or so of five different engines, but compared to the price of the cars this is likely to be pretty negligible.

[EricG76]

On 4/13/2023 at 12:37 PM, EricG76 said:

"Thanks for the feedback. Audio is fixed for now just soldering direct to TIA audio pin. The issue appears to be a slight 0.2V blending of the LUMA passing through the same buffer as the audio. The buffer isn't needed it was just additional, so you can just go before the buffer (directly to the TIA audio output) to fix that. Working on the vertical bars that remain on the next version. Think it is high frequency common mode noise that needs additional filtering."

Just wanted to post a follow-up.  I finally got my 2600 opened up again and moved the audio wires to the TIA pins directly and it works perfectly now.  It's not ideal because there is so little room to solder them there so I wrapped the wires with electrical tape as close as possible to solder points so it wouldn't short out something if the wires moved a bit when reassembling.  I am very happy with this mod now, it just would have been nice to not have to resolder.  I added LED power lights inside the case at the same time to make the disassembly worth it. 

[Blinky]

Just found about your CleanComp mod and bought one through your shop. I'm excited to get it installed.

[RunM]

Hello, I recently got and installed the cleancomp mod on my atari 2600 pal and the video was excellent, Luke "Retrosix" did a really amazing job  (the video joined does not show the sharpness of the sprites)

 

But after few minutes the image started to flicker and to show lot of parasites and then I even got blank screen (the prob starts at 00:17)

 

Issue happened on multiple screens, crts and lcd one.

Any idea of what happens here, maybe something that someone encountered already ? 

 

Thanks a lot in advance

 

Regards,

 

Olivier

 

 

[RunM]

On 8/28/2023 at 11:57 PM, RunM said:

Hello, I recently got and installed the cleancomp mod on my atari 2600 pal and the video was excellent, Luke "Retrosix" did a really amazing job  (the video joined does not show the sharpness of the sprites)

 

But after few minutes the image started to flicker and to show lot of parasites and then I even got blank screen (the prob starts at 00:17)

 

Issue happened on multiple screens, crts and lcd one.

Any idea of what happens here, maybe something that someone encountered already ? 

 

 

Hello,

I finally found the solution to my issue.
I started to suspect it was sync problem, the csync is on the PIN 2 of the TIA.

From the retrosix wiki i found that :

"[...] The CSYNC Pin is an open-drain pin so pulls the line low, and requires an external pull-up resistor to work. The Atari 2600 provides the pull-up resistor on the board.[...]"

Then I followed the circuit to find the components connected to that pin, I found the R221 was not showing a proper value.
R221 is listed as well in the service manual as a key resistor for video issues.

Then I changed it for a resistor and tadaaa it works fine now.

Now i will clean back a bit the pcb and put everything back in place

Cheers.

 

Olivier

[retrosix]

So V2 is finally out and sold quite a few to get some general feedback.

 

Issues fixed since V1's.

 

• Audio sorted and correctly buffered via its own buffer so no interference or lost audio
• Luma sharpness improved / undershoot reduced
• Luma / Chroma timing improved alignment
• Much better filtering into board and power to stop the "5V not present" issue
• S-Video big improvements, reduced cross-talk, and better levels after more devices to test on (OSSC, RetroTink etc...)
• Upgraded capacitors to AV spec tolerances

I feel the composite is as good as it will get, and all we really have left is dot crawl. Without TIA intervention we can't change that bit I don't think.

 

S-Video I am still looking for feedback on, as I feel it should be able to be possibly improved slightly. It looks really sharp (perfect) on Luma so I think we have zero issue there. Chroma I feel perhaps could be tweaked the waveform a little as you get slight slow bleed between sharp edges. Unless thats just S-Video limitations?

 

Known possible improvements

 

• Remove cross-talk on S-Video with shielded cables or PCB design updates perhaps
• Remove slight vertical bars most visible on dark blues. Perhaps actual Atari 2600 board mods to filter TIA circuit

Anyone want to give me some feedback on this version? If so simply place an order at retrosix.co.uk and in your order notes ask to include a free CleanComp V2 and your username from AtariAge and I will chuck them in for free for testing. I'll limit it to about the first 20 people but I think we only had about 20 people in this thread test anyway.

 

Any other feedback greatly welcome and thanks again for testing and giving feedback on this product, its made it into a really nice and easy, clean mod for the 2600 that I've had a lot of positive feedback from.

Edited September 18 by retrosix
Add image

[+-^CrossBow^-]

6 hours ago, retrosix said:

So V2 is finally out and sold quite a few to get some general feedback.

 

Issues fixed since V1's.

 

• Audio sorted and correctly buffered via its own buffer so no interference or lost audio
• Luma sharpness improved / undershoot reduced
• Luma / Chroma timing improved alignment
• Much better filtering into board and power to stop the "5V not present" issue
• S-Video big improvements, reduced cross-talk, and better levels after more devices to test on (OSSC, RetroTink etc...)
• Upgraded capacitors to AV spec tolerances

I feel the composite is as good as it will get, and all we really have left is dot crawl. Without TIA intervention we can't change that bit I don't think.

 

S-Video I am still looking for feedback on, as I feel it should be able to be possibly improved slightly. It looks really sharp (perfect) on Luma so I think we have zero issue there. Chroma I feel perhaps could be tweaked the waveform a little as you get slight slow bleed between sharp edges. Unless thats just S-Video limitations?

 

Known possible improvements

 

• Remove cross-talk on S-Video with shielded cables or PCB design updates perhaps
• Remove slight vertical bars most visible on dark blues. Perhaps actual Atari 2600 board mods to filter TIA circuit

Anyone want to give me some feedback on this version? If so simply place an order at retrosix.co.uk and in your order notes ask to include a free CleanComp V2 and your username from AtariAge and I will chuck them in for free for testing. I'll limit it to about the first 20 people but I think we only had about 20 people in this thread test anyway.

 

Any other feedback greatly welcome and thanks again for testing and giving feedback on this product, its made it into a really nice and easy, clean mod for the 2600 that I've had a lot of positive feedback from.

I'm up for testing as this would have been really nice over the past month or so while I was literally doing over a dozen consoles. That said, I'm concerned anytime I see pot trimmers on a board? Because, it means some dialing in is required and that can vary greatly from display to display. So my concern is trying to install and set something like this up for another person, adjust it looking good on my AV setup, but then they complain when they receive it because it looks over saturated or washed out...etc?

 

What has been the initial feedback on that so far? Because I can tell you that most of my clients that receive services from me are NOT willing to open up their consoles to have to tweak anything.

 

 

 

[retrosix]

17 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I'm up for testing as this would have been really nice over the past month or so while I was literally doing over a dozen consoles. That said, I'm concerned anytime I see pot trimmers on a board? Because, it means some dialing in is required and that can vary greatly from display to display. So my concern is trying to install and set something like this up for another person, adjust it looking good on my AV setup, but then they complain when they receive it because it looks over saturated or washed out...etc?

 

What has been the initial feedback on that so far? Because I can tell you that most of my clients that receive services from me are NOT willing to open up their consoles to have to tweak anything.

 

 

 

The pots are pre-configured at factory for perfect voltage levels. The tuning allows you to dial in chroma to your desired level (sharpness vs noise).

 

So far all feedback on V2 has been 100%. V1 the only main issue we had was a filter sending 5V to the board had poor soldering so no power. That was fixed. Early pre-assembly units (most the testing on here) had a lot of improvements, so AV output wise I'm pretty sure it will give the best possible comp and S-vid available for the console.

 

I'd love to get more widefield reviews of the latest version and see if there is any improvements left to be had. 

[Blinky]

On 9/18/2023 at 9:17 AM, retrosix said:

Anyone want to give me some feedback on this version?

I recently ordered one from you. white PCB and just looks like your image. Is it a V2 or else how can I identify which version it is?

I've installed it on one of my 2600JR (PAL version) and gave a great picture but after 5 minutes the screen started flickering and a gray image with interpolated color frequency bars displayed. Maybe this happened because the system heated up but this didn't happen before the mod. Tweaking the little preset resistor on the CleanComp didn't help but tweaking the preset resistor of the 2600 fixed it.

Unfortunately I noticed the TIA behaves a bit strangly (after warming up) as the missle sprites position seems to randomly change so It looks like my 2600 has a dodgy TIA and it doesn't like the increase load (when I turn the preset pot of the 2600 all the way to GND the problem goes away but then the color signal is gone of course) added a 4.7uF cap between GND and 5V but that didn't help either. I'm gonna tinker around a bit more in the weekend and will try to remove some components.

 

I'm wondering does the CleanComp rely on those pull up resistors on the luminance/color and sound pins or will it work fine with those parts removed? I wanna see if I can get the TIA to behave again after it's warmed up. if not I'll need to get another one for my other JR or light 6-er as I'm not sure I will be able to desolder the CleanComp properly.
 

Here are some pictures on my Sony Brava LCD TV

[Bobo Cujo]

@retrosix 

1. Is https://retrosix.co.uk/Atari-2600-CleanComp-Composite-Video-Out-p537997297 the correct page to order V2?  The page only mentions V1's release notes.

2. Does V2 still have the issue with switch-mode power supplies as V1 did?

 

[+mksmith]

Thanks @retrosix - I've placed an order. Looking forward to installing it 😄

[FireStar]

Crossposting my experiences out of the retrosix discord just so they have more visibility.

I found with my particular board revision (rev 14) of the 2600 (America region), there was a resistor soldered onto back pins of the TIA, from pin 6 to 9.

 

After some googling figured out it's a stock atari tweak for improving color (the resistor existed on newer versions of the board out of the box it seemed)

sources: https://wiki.console5.com/wiki/Atari_2600#Blanking_resistor_-_(Tech_Tip_4,_11/17/82) and https://forums.atari.io/topic/2967-wavy-lines-jail-bars-rolling-horizontal-bar-through-the-screen-snowy-picture-on-2600s/

 

Since CleanComp V2 wasn't specifically tuned for this variation, I tested it out and the color change was apparent with the resistor connected, especially over composite.

A few comparisons below:

 

Svideo without Resistor:                                                                                                                      Svideo with blanking Resistor:

Composite without Resistor:                                                                                                                      Composite with blanking Resistor:

Svideo without Resistor:                                                                                                                      Svideo with blanking Resistor:              (blur deinterlace from the capture card kinda messes this up)

 

 

Basically, if you have a rev 14 board, if it already has the blanking resistor installed, add it back after installing cleancomp, if it doesn't have it at all, add it in.

 

 

Edited September 26 by FireStar
add install reference image

[+-^CrossBow^-]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:39 PM, FireStar said:

Crossposting my experiences out of the retrosix discord just so they have more visibility.

I found with my particular board revision (rev 14) of the 2600 (America region), there was a resistor soldered onto back pins of the TIA, from pin 6 to 9.

 

After some googling figured out it's a stock atari tweak for improving color (the resistor existed on newer versions of the board out of the box it seemed)

sources: https://wiki.console5.com/wiki/Atari_2600#Blanking_resistor_-_(Tech_Tip_4,_11/17/82) and https://forums.atari.io/topic/2967-wavy-lines-jail-bars-rolling-horizontal-bar-through-the-screen-snowy-picture-on-2600s/

 

Since CleanComp V2 wasn't specifically tuned for this variation, I tested it out and the color change was apparent with the resistor connected, especially over composite.

A few comparisons below:

 

Svideo without Resistor:                                                                                                                      Svideo with blanking Resistor:

Composite without Resistor:                                                                                                                      Composite with blanking Resistor:

Svideo without Resistor:                                                                                                                      Svideo with blanking Resistor:              (blur deinterlace from the capture card kinda messes this up)

 

 

Basically, if you have a rev 14 board, if it already has the blanking resistor installed, add it back after installing cleancomp, if it doesn't have it at all, add it in.

 

 

Hmm..the jailbars are still present on this new version over s-video still. I'd hope that could be cleaned up more? But the overall color output does look improved over the earlier version board that I've got installed into a jr model.

 

[FireStar]

It seemed from discord chat, the jailbars varied board revision to board revision.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, FireStar said:

It seemed from discord chat, the jailbars varied board revision to board revision.

Could be, but these signals are being taken straight off the TIA chip itself so the rest of the atari board layout doesn't or shouldn't really matter since the TIA pinout is the same across all models. Now, what I could see is that some TIA revisions might cause differences like this. I see some variance with UAVs installed from 2600 to 2600. I had a 7800 once that had bad jail bars but only from composite and only when 2600 games were played. It ended up being the TIA causing them.

 

 

 

[Kester]

Here's my install pic of the clean comp V1 on a PAL Atari 2600. It went well except I initially soldered the audio wires to the pads and had sound issues. As others have stated above, by soldering the two audio wires directly to the correct TIA pin these issues have disappeared. I'm really pleased with the results of the mod and will post another pic of the CRT TV with the result later on when it's darker in the room. I have not noticed any noise in the video signal despite using a switching power supply. Which is good 🙂

 

 

 

[Kester]

Just got the one photo of River raid that does the mod justice. The others were blurry and weren't accurate. This is composite out of Clean comp V1 (pal) on a portable CRT TV.

 

[retrosix]

On 9/28/2023 at 5:33 AM, -^CrossBow^- said:

Hmm..the jailbars are still present on this new version over s-video still. I'd hope that could be cleaned up more? But the overall color output does look improved over the earlier version board that I've got installed into a jr model.

 

Zero jailbars. But if you are using new RetroTink hardware that causes jailbars.

 

Here is RetroTink 2X Pro and 5X

 

 

Here is using OSSC and regulator monitors that support S-Video also

 

 

 

Could you confirm if you are using retrotink for testing as if so they are poor quality and add noise/jailbars

[retrosix]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:27 PM, Blinky said:

I recently ordered one from you. white PCB and just looks like your image. Is it a V2 or else how can I identify which version it is?

I've installed it on one of my 2600JR (PAL version) and gave a great picture but after 5 minutes the screen started flickering and a gray image with interpolated color frequency bars displayed. Maybe this happened because the system heated up but this didn't happen before the mod. Tweaking the little preset resistor on the CleanComp didn't help but tweaking the preset resistor of the 2600 fixed it.

Unfortunately I noticed the TIA behaves a bit strangly (after warming up) as the missle sprites position seems to randomly change so It looks like my 2600 has a dodgy TIA and it doesn't like the increase load (when I turn the preset pot of the 2600 all the way to GND the problem goes away but then the color signal is gone of course) added a 4.7uF cap between GND and 5V but that didn't help either. I'm gonna tinker around a bit more in the weekend and will try to remove some components.

 

I'm wondering does the CleanComp rely on those pull up resistors on the luminance/color and sound pins or will it work fine with those parts removed? I wanna see if I can get the TIA to behave again after it's warmed up. if not I'll need to get another one for my other JR or light 6-er as I'm not sure I will be able to desolder the CleanComp properly.
 

Here are some pictures on my Sony Brava LCD TV

The V2 puts zero load on the pins, they go straight to buffers. So should not cause it. I suspect the chroma CADJ voltage on your Atari is warming up and moving, causing shifting then flickering as you first described perhaps.

 

Literally zero ohm load on pins.

 

I'd suspect cartridge pins need cleaning or maybe bad/failing TIA for those glitches. Might be worth swapping it out to see

[retrosix]

On 9/28/2023 at 9:46 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

Could be, but these signals are being taken straight off the TIA chip itself so the rest of the atari board layout doesn't or shouldn't really matter since the TIA pinout is the same across all models. Now, what I could see is that some TIA revisions might cause differences like this. I see some variance with UAVs installed from 2600 to 2600. I had a 7800 once that had bad jail bars but only from composite and only when 2600 games were played. It ended up being the TIA causing them.

 

 

 

If jailbars remain (seems we found it to be the retrotink so far), I suspect it could be noise from the traces running directly under the TIA and the bottom layer of the CleanComp.

 

Just ruling out retrotink with those that have jailbars and if its not the retrotink we can continue to diagnose. One test would be to lift the CleanComp up slightly so its not flat on the board.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

4 hours ago, retrosix said:

Zero jailbars. But if you are using new RetroTink hardware that causes jailbars.

 

Here is RetroTink 2X Pro and 5X

 

 

Here is using OSSC and regulator monitors that support S-Video also

 

 

 

Could you confirm if you are using retrotink for testing as if so they are poor quality and add noise/jailbars

I'm talking based on the pictures that @FireStar posted above. In all of his s-video pics, you can still see definite jail bars present. I've not used the new v2 board so I don't know how it would look on my setup. But I can tell you that with the earlier board on my 2600jr, the s-video had severe jail bars similar to @FireStar's pictures and that was s-video directly to an LCD that has s-video inputs. But it was also present on my PVM with s-video. The composite looked better so I stuck with that output on that 2600jr.