UGV installed in my 130XE - Great display output quality!

[Beeblebrox]

@deffroe sure.

 

So just to clarify did you buy the UGV board preassembled and made your own cables, or did you populate the empty board yourself?

 

If you populated the board yourself have you checked all the connections, (in particular the socket and pin connections with the gtia), and also I guess check the dip switch voltage settings? 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[+mytek]

2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

The 4050 is used for other things in the Atari not just what you think it's for, I don't know how many times I have had to put them back in for people later on....

I'm only aware of two uses for the 4050 in all Atari machines: LUMA and CSYNC buffering. However I can see if someone is installing a VBXE it would be good to keep the CSYNC buffering when tapping it for the VBXE's sync input. But I digress... it is not at all necessary to remove the 4050 chip when installing the UGV board, and I never instructed anyone to do so. The only possible reason would be if it physically is getting in the way -- which I'm not aware of this being an issue.

 

@deffroe sorry to hear you are having difficulties. I haven't thoroughly read every post in this thread, but did you answer the question as to whether you built your board or got it from someone else? Reason I ask is that besides myself several other people have built and/or installed these without the problems you mentioned, so that makes me wonder if your UGV is defective.

[Beeblebrox]

Just to add the reason I perhaps misunderstood and took the 4050 out was because it was part of the UAV instructions which say remove it. (Page 43 of the UAV manual or thereabouts for example). Since I took it that the disabling of the on board stock video circuit included the removal of the 4050, I did so. Plus as it worked and the UGV took over I assumed this was correct.

 

Also because my understanding is that the UAV and UGV replace the onboard stock video circuit, this further backed up my assumption that the 4050 was not needed. Good to know you can leave the 4050 in when using UGV. 

 

Incidentally I have heard the UAV, (which goes into the 4050 socket), can piggyback the 4050 chip, and some people do that, leaving the chip in. 

 

With my VBXE enabled machine it takes csync from pin 15 of the 4050.

 

I think because at the moment with UGV there are elements of the install, (eg disabling stock video circuit when using the Din5 with UGV outputs), which you are directed to and which are referenced in the UAV installation instructions. So therefore it can be a little confusing as to what is needed and what isn't with UGV. 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[pseudografx]

4 hours ago, NISMOPC said:

As stated above. Are there any sellers in the USA for these?

Side note: My go to monitor is the Dell 2007FP 20.1 Inch Ultrasharp 1600x1200 Flat Panel Monitor. Has USB power port, VGA port, DVI-D port, S-Video port and Composite connection AND maintains a 4:3 aspect ratio screen. Currently own three of them all used. Two purchased at different times from Facebook Marketplace and another from Ebay.

Also own a 2007WFP since I got it super cheap. Same as above, but 16:9 ratio.

 

I had that one some time ago and while it seemed like a great display for my Atari, I found out that the S-Video and Composite inputs cannot handle PAL Atari signal. 😞

[+mytek]

2 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

Just to add the reason I perhaps misunderstood and took the 4050 out was because it was part of the UAV instructions which say remove it. (Page 43 of the UAV manual or thereabouts for example). Since I took it that the disabling of the on board stock video circuit included the removal of the 4050, I did so. Plus as it worked and the UGV took over I assumed this was correct.

The only reason I referenced that manual with a link to it on my UGV webpage was for the method involved in feeding the UAV's video outputs to the stock 5-pin DIN A/V jack. Everything else being shown or talked about in that manual is strictly related to the UAV and not the UGV.

 

2 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

Also because my understanding is that the UAV and UGV replace the onboard stock video circuit, this further backed up my assumption that the 4050 was not needed. Good to know you can leave the 4050 in when using UGV. 

Oh there's nothing wrong with eliminating it if you don't need the buffered CSYNC for a VBXE. I was just assuring the Doctor that it wasn't necessary, and that I certainly wasn't telling people to off the chip

 

2 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

I think because at the moment with UGV there are elements of the install, (eg disabling stock video circuit when using the Din5 with UGV outputs), which you are directed to and which are referenced in the UAV installation instructions. So therefore it can be a little confusing as to what is needed and what isn't with UGV.

Yeah it would be very nice to have a UGV specific manual, but since I don't make any money off this venture I have very little incentive to do so. That's why I leveraged the UAV manual for tips on connecting to the Atari A/V jack, since at least that aspect is virtually the same with a UGV.

 

Personally the only signal I route to that jack is the UGV Composite video output (marked as CVBS). For S-Video I prefer to use the S-Video Mini-DIN4 Interface Board via the RF hole, which works well on an XL, but not so well for an XE (sits too low to the motherboard -- although it is possible with a lot of work, and I did it in my 65XE). On an XE you're probably better off drilling a new hole at a higher level elsewhere on the case. Don't want to do that? Then you should stick to routing the signals out the A/V jack instead.

 

Until there is a UGV manual, I would suggest being a jack of all trades would be a good place to begin, since there's a bit of electrical and perhaps mechanical involved

 

------------

 

Now for a little Q&A.

 

Does the UGV produce a better video quality output than the UAV? Answer: No, but it is practically on the same level with it.

 

Does the UAV do something that the UGV doesn't?  Answer: Yes it has a artifact phase control affecting the colors produced by the composite video output.

 

Does the UGV do something that the UAV doesn't? Answer: Yes it contains a VGATE function, which eliminates over scan garbage sometimes seen with certain games. It also has a 4-step gain control for fine tuning the video output level to get a better match to your TV or converter. At its highest gain setting (all switches OFF) it's a tad bit brighter than the UAV.

 

[deffroe]

7 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

@deffroe sure.

 

So just to clarify did you buy the UGV board preassembled and made your own cables, or did you populate the empty board yourself?

 

If you populated the board yourself have you checked all the connections, (in particular the socket and pin connections with the gtia), and also I guess check the dip switch voltage settings? 

 

 

Prebuilt, its from the same seller on ebay that you highlighted.

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, deffroe said:

Prebuilt, its from the same seller on ebay that you highlighted.

Hi. Thanks.. Ir confused me a little when I read this as you mentioned you made the dupont cables yourself but this seller provides dupont cables with the board already.

[Beeblebrox]

@mytek thanks for explaining everything earlier in your last reply. Makes perfect sense.

FYI I ignored most of the UAV instructions naturally, but assumed the 4050 removal part still applied in terms of severing the old video circuit. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[+x=usr(1536)]

15 hours ago, mytek said:

I'm only aware of two uses for the 4050 in all Atari machines: LUMA and CSYNC buffering.

It's also used in early revisions of the 2600 (both the Heavy- and Light-Sixers, IIRC) to read the fire button.  If someone does a UAV / UGV install and leaves the 4050 out as part of that, their choice of playable games is going to be somewhat reduced

 

FWIW, 4-switch units omit it entirely, and Juniors only use it for video buffering, same as everything else with one.

[reifsnyderb]

3 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

It's also used in early revisions of the 2600 (both the Heavy- and Light-Sixers, IIRC) to read the fire button.  If anyone does a UAV / UGV install and leaves the 4050 out as part of that, their choice of playable games is going to be somewhat reduced

While I can't vouch for the 2600's, @mytek is correct as far as the 4050 being only used for LUMA and CSYNC on the Atari 8 bit computers.

[marauder666]

6 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

It's also used in early revisions of the 2600 (both the Heavy- and Light-Sixers, IIRC) to read the fire button.  If someone does a UAV / UGV install and leaves the 4050 out as part of that, their choice of playable games is going to be somewhat reduced

 

FWIW, 4-switch units omit it entirely, and Juniors only use it for video buffering, same as everything else with one.

PAL jr.  runs the CPU reset through the spare gate.

 

[+mytek]

28 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

It's also used in early revisions of the 2600 (both the Heavy- and Light-Sixers, IIRC) to read the fire button.  If someone does a UAV / UGV install and leaves the 4050 out as part of that, their choice of playable games is going to be somewhat reduced

 

FWIW, 4-switch units omit it entirely, and Juniors only use it for video buffering, same as everything else with one.

 

23 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

While I can't vouch for the 2600's, @mytek is correct as far as the 4050 being only used for LUMA and CSYNC on the Atari 8 bit computers.

 

21 minutes ago, marauder666 said:

PAL jr.  runs the CPU reset through the spare gate.

 

All good points about the 2600. However just to be clear, the UGV will not work in any version of that unit since there is no GTIA chip to piggyback

 

So although this might relate to a UAV install, they don't apply to the UGV. Sorry folks if you come walking in with a 2600 it's "no UGV soup for you"

[_The Doctor__]

hmmm TIA adaption of UGV doesn't sound a bridge too far though...

 

btw, not only to help out the VBXE but other upgrades as well. Though the 1200XL reset cap and chip fix addresses some of this if there are problems in that machine.

---snip---

One of the gates from the 4050 buffer chip is used for strengthen the RESET signal to the CPU and make sure it´s at a defined logic state. So if you removed the 4050 for the installation of an UAV/UGV or the SuperColor CPU Card (400), then the RESET pin 40 at the CPU is floating around and you have an undefined condition. Some CPUs doesn´t care about this and start always even when the RESET input floats around 1.7 volts (for example), others don´t start up (SYNC = constantly low).

 

If you´re using the UAV/UGV, or SuperColor CPU Card (400) and the 4050 is missing: Just plug it in again and the faults should be gone. If you´ve installed the UAV plugin module, then a fix is needed. The TBA manual suggest to solder the UAV plugin module "piggy-packed" onto the 4050, which is one solution.

 

Another solution is to solder the 4050 chip (partly) "down-under". This is useful when you change the hardware some times (like I do in my tests). For permanent usage it´s simpler to install the whole chip OR use the piggy-pack way ?

Edited January 9, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[+mytek]

@deffroe getting back to your situation...

 

Well now that we know that you bought the board from the same seller as @Beeblebrox, I'm thinking that the board is probably good, since it's my understanding that the seller pre-tests them before shipping them out. So this leaves your unit and/or your video cable or monitor as the most likely suspects. And this takes me back to a question or two that was asked earlier. Did this particular Atari system work correctly with the same video cable and monitor previous to attempting the UGV install?

 

Also looking at the photo you posted, that's one tangled mess of wiring exiting the UGV video outputs -- probably not good to have the video wires knotted together like that -- just that much more chance at cross talk between the individual signals. If you're going to run the 3 grounds, then it would be better to use them to created 3 individual twisted pairs, with each signal wire having it's own associated ground wire twisted around it. However for as short as those wires are, I personally think a single ground wire would have sufficed since all the ground connections on the UGV are the same. The extra grounds were provided in case someone chose to use shielded coaxial cables and needed a place to ground the shields of each one.

 

Your installation photo.

 

16 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

hmmm TIA adaption of UGV doesn't sound a bridge too far though...

I'm personally not interested, but the schematics are there for anyone else that wishes to do so -- perhaps you

[_The Doctor__]

UGV would be nice in the 5200's also, but the 4050 needs to stay in that console as well, since it also uses it for reset purposes.

and in fact Bryan also realized these issues...

---snip---

Because of the 5200 reset issue, I'm making a small 4050 add-on board I'll send out for free to those wanting one. Basically, if the 4050 is socketed (this seems to be mostly 4-ports) then the only way the Plug-In board fits under the shield is to remove the 4050 which causes problems as the 4050 also handles the reset signal. The options are to solder the 4050 in (either by removing the socket or soldering it onto the bottom of the board) or building a low-profile version of UAV using the Kit. This LP version could have the terminal and jumpers soldered under the board instead of on top.

 

If there's ever a new revision (some day, I hope), I'm going to include the 4050 functionality on the UAV itself and make it a little easier to have manufactured.

---snip---

had things continued, the uav would have provided the buffering and the reset strengthener. That solves for various upgrades issues, computers/consoles across the board.

Edited January 9, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, _The Doctor__ said:

had things continued, the uav would have provided the buffering and the reset strengthener. That solves for various upgrades issues, computers/consoles across the board.

On the UGV The lack of buffering on GTIA's color output is also why the UGV needs to become the Atari's only video source, since the original chroma and composite color outputs are affected in a not so good way by the UGV (influenced by VGATE's switching). I really didn't see this as an issue, since the UGV's quality is much better than the stock or even modded video, and should be taking the place of it.

 

To add more components to allow for buffering GTIA's color output, would have been very problematic due to the size constraints imposed by trying to keep this board as small as possible in order to not create fit problems in the various systems. Where could I have added additional analog buffering without going to surface mount parts that became too small for most people to hand solder? (remember this is suppose to still be somewhat DIY friendly -- and it barely qualifies as it is).

 

 

Just to let everyone know where I stand on further development -- it's not going to come from me

 

I say this because for all practical purposes this board does what I set out to accomplish, and it does it well. And you'll note that this is the 3rd revision in order to get there (V1.3), with each revision costing me $$$ which I'll never see again. For those that don't fully understand... I don't sell these boards, nor do I get a kick back from anyone that does. So at some point in all my projects I have to press the STOP button to any more R&D expenditures and call it good enough. The UGV is good enough in my eyes.

 

For those that want to take it farther, here are the schematics: https://ataribits.weebly.com/uploads/5/8/8/6/58865739/ugv_v1.3_schema.pdf

[deffroe]

1 hour ago, mytek said:

@deffroe getting back to your situation...

 

Well now that we know that you bought the board from the same seller as @Beeblebrox, I'm thinking that the board is probably good, since it's my understanding that the seller pre-tests them before shipping them out. So this leaves your unit and/or your video cable or monitor as the most likely suspects. And this takes me back to a question or two that was asked earlier. Did this particular Atari system work correctly with the same video cable and monitor previous to attempting the UGV install?

 

Also looking at the photo you posted, that's one tangled mess of wiring exiting the UGV video outputs -- probably not good to have the video wires knotted together like that -- just that much more chance at cross talk between the individual signals. If you're going to run the 3 grounds, then it would be better to use them to created 3 individual twisted pairs, with each signal wire having it's own associated ground wire twisted around it. However for as short as those wires are, I personally think a single ground wire would have sufficed since all the ground connections on the UGV are the same. The extra grounds were provided in case someone chose to use shielded coaxial cables and needed a place to ground the shields of each one.

 

Your installation photo.

 

I'm personally not interested, but the schematics are there for anyone else that wishes to do so -- perhaps you

Yes, the composite video cable is a known working cable that I used on this 130 and my 800XL's.  The rats nest of cables are a temporary length, they can be shortened and unlooped which will also allow me to recheck the solder points.👍

[+MacRorie]

On 1/8/2023 at 8:53 AM, mytek said:

Yeah I just saw the sellers newest listing, with 3 boards available (just typed: Atari UGV in eBay's search box).

 

 

BUY LINK

 

If these get popular enough perhaps @MacRorie at TBA can be persuaded to sell them over here in the states.

 

On 1/8/2023 at 1:42 PM, NISMOPC said:

As stated above. Are there any sellers in the USA for these?
 

Yes, I can do that.  I even have the boards already. Just need to put them up on the website.  I will price them same as the UAVs.  Fully populated.  Will sell bare boards as well.  Too many parts to count out for a kit, though. I also have the boards for the S-video daughterboard.

 

-M

 

Will update post with a link as soon s I get them up sometime this week.

 

Link:  https://thebrewingacademy.com/collections/atari-800-xl-xe-xel-xld/products/ultimate-gated-video-by-mytek-1

Edited January 12, 2023 by MacRorie
Added Link

[ZuluGula]

1 hour ago, mytek said:

with each revision costing me $$$ which I'll never see again. For those that don't fully understand... I don't sell these boards, nor do I get a kick back from anyone that does. So at some point in all my projects I have to press the STOP button to any more R&D expenditures and call it good enough.

Did you ever considered having some kind of voluntary donation system on your website? I know it would never pay for your time, but maybe it would help to cover some ot the prototyping cost. 

[+mytek]

18 minutes ago, ZuluGula said:

Did you ever considered having some kind of voluntary donation system on your website? I know it would never pay for your time, but maybe it would help to cover some ot the prototyping cost. 

You aren't the first one to suggest that, but that isn't for me.

 

You see all of the projects I do, start out life being something that I personally want to see happen and that are just the right kind of challenge I feel like taking on. A lot of times this is based on stuff I wanted to do BITD, that either I didn't have the funds for, the knowledge, or the technology of the time made it near impossible to accomplish. So now that those obstacles are no longer an issue I get to play. The key word here is 'play', because for me that is what these projects are all about. And once I've played the thing out, I'm done and ready to move on to the next challenge. This is why I never revisit the old projects just to tweak something or to allow for an extra component that people started tacking onto the board to solve a minor issue (kinda like the reset line capacitor that people sometimes add to Lotharek's U1MB). Once I'm done, that's it.

 

As for money, I think if I started taking that from other people it would make me feel more obligated to do customer support, which I really don't want that kind of obligation.

 

In my mind people should simply be appreciative for what I do release, and the detail of my schematics and BOMs -- which they get for FREE.

[deffroe]

Had to pop out so didn't have chance to test properly but got a colour display now.

I shortened to cables and ran them more directly but also noticed that the sockets and gtia were not quite sandwiched together tightly as one hoped, so it's possible there wasn't the best connection happening.  I'll give it another test when I get home.🤞

Edited January 9, 2023 by deffroe

[+mytek]

9 hours ago, deffroe said:

noticed that the sockets and gtia were not quite sandwiched together tightly

Might need to add an extra machine pin socket to lift up the UGV if the dupont housings are holding it up on top of Antic. In fact those right angle headers look different than what I spec'ed in the BOM, so I hope they are 'TALL' versions being substituted.

[NISMOPC]

10 hours ago, MacRorie said:

 

Yes, I can do that.  I even have the boards already. Just need to put them up on the website.  I will price them same as the UAVs.  Fully populated.  Will sell bare boards as well.  Too many parts to count out for a kit, though. I also have the boards for the S-video daughterboard.

 

-M

 

Will update post with a link as soon s I get them up sometime this week.

 

 

@MacRorie that would be fantastic 😊 Thanks!!!

[+MacRorie]

On 1/9/2023 at 8:36 PM, NISMOPC said:

@MacRorie that would be fantastic 😊 Thanks!!!

Done.  Message edited.

 

https://thebrewingacademy.com/collections/atari-800-xl-xe-xel-xld/products/ultimate-gated-video-by-mytek-1

 

[NISMOPC]

1 hour ago, MacRorie said:

Done.  Message edited.

 

https://thebrewingacademy.com/collections/atari-800-xl-xe-xel-xld/products/ultimate-gated-video-by-mytek-1

 

Ordered!!! Thanks for making these available in the US 😊