What would you want to be able to buy from Atari…

[ledzep]

8 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

As written, I also agree.  However, where I feel the distinction is blurred is when the game becomes a first-party release.

 

Like I said, we can split hairs on this 10,000 ways from Sunday.  I'll freely admit that.  But this is not a totally dissimilar situation to how book publishers work: a third party (the author) writes a manuscript for the first party (the publisher).  The publisher decides in advance if they want to accept or reject the book proposal that the author (or, more likely, their agent, but that's neither here nor there) has put forward.  If yes, the author typically receives an advance on full payment, completes the manuscript, and hands it off to the publisher for both final compensation and publication.  The title is recognised as being sold by the publisher, not the author independently.  It's effectively a first-party work based on publishing and initial distribution.

 

I get that comparison but I don't think it would be exact.  In-house programmers (even if they're not physically "in house") would be working for Atari, meaning Atari says hey, Nige, make a platform shooter, Russ, make a game version of the first Iron Man movie, Janet, you say you have an idea for a Barbie-themed game, let's see it, Bart, the 5200 needs a Star Castle port, etc.  They are paid by Atari to sit and program, this isn't a side hobby while they have day jobs, but that means Atari tells them to stop fucking around and get to work and Atari can tell them to make stupid games that they want because they pay the bills.

 

A third-party homebrewist, in my fantasy scenario, works for Ford or Amazon or wherever and, on the weekends, is coding a game for the 2600 or 7800 or whatever because he wants to be a programmer or he has a hard-on to play Space Wars on the 5200, who knows.  He may never finish it.  He may get halfway through and change his mind and make something else that uses the same core code.  But once he's got a finished game, he talks to the APX, they make arrangements, get the artwork and manual worked out, the game winds up on the APX, he makes some money and brags about how he's the guy who wrote that game you're playing on your 5200 that you bought off of the APX.

 

8 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Now, if the author decides to go with, say, online, mail-order, carrier pigeon, etc. distribution, then sale is more (or completely) controlled by the author.  This is where I see the major distinction between a homebrew and first-party title coming in: how much control the author has over sale and initial distribution of their work.

 

Agreed.

 

8 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

I'm not saying that this situation is a 100% match, but there are a lot of parallels.  It's also not particularly rigid, with plenty of room for exceptions to the rule.

 

Well, I think working directly for Atari would be far more rigid, NDAs and we own these games, not you, though you will be paid like any other programming/gaming job.

[ledzep]

3 hours ago, Giles N said:

Thanks for lots of ideas and input.

 

Yes, - here. on this thread we can put in everything from dry-as-dust Atari-market analysises, to pure Atari-WonderWorld Dream-scenarios.

 

Trying to do something in the middle of these 2 things on your idea number 1), I think it’s cool.

I think if Atari had accumulated lots of money (so not every move was a risk), they could have made some deals with specialized firms, and made a run of true full old-school arcades, but I think these would end up being enormously expensive and most likely been sold to Retro-game-halls, even prior to production-runs, and again - if any remained the price-tag would be pretty huge.

 

Ya, I don't think Atari (or any company) would be able to help themselves, they'd charge through out ass for complete real arcade games.  But I think the prices could be "reasonable" if the parts are mostly manufactured by robotic plants.  Maybe melamine instead of wood (wouldn't warp from water exposure).

 

4 hours ago, Giles N said:

Guesstimate speaking right out of my  a…, - uhm -, my head … probably 3000-3500$ for a stand up cabinet for Star Wars, 1000$ for Missile Command.

Yes, I know you know from which outset I speak, but man, think of the costs of getting all those oldfashioned parts being produced again.

You start a new production run of things only bought by very few companies, then it needs assembly.

 

So, wouid you pay 1000$ for a really hardcore-arcade cabinet…?

3000$…for a more exclusive title…?

 

But that's the thing, none of the cabinets would be "more exclusive" in terms of new runs, every game would get the same run, have mostly the same parts internally so why would one cost way more than another?  If one sells out instantly, a 2nd run, maybe a 3rd.  If one sells poorly, don't expect another run of that game.  Or, maybe Atari sweetens the deal with the new game board conversion kit being a great game that requires that base cabinet to play on.  So maybe Red Baron doesn't sell so well (compared to Battlezone) but the conversion board is some A-10 Warthog tank hunting game (bbrrrrrrrrrr!) with the same basic gameplay but an added button for missiles or a thumb switch to choose between gun/missiles, dodge enemy SAMs, holy shit, now everybody wants to buy one of the Red Baron cabs to play Warthog!!

 

The goal isn't so much just getting more copies of the classic games out there but having the games out there to accept the conversion kits, one cabinet might wind up with 3 or 4 possible conversion kits, all you need is a new game idea that uses the same control panel.

 

There's also the idea of getting the game as a collection of parts in a kit, up to you to assemble it, much cheaper than a complete assembled cabinet.

[Giles N]

7 hours ago, ledzep said:

But that's the thing, none of the cabinets would be "more exclusive" in terms of new runs, every game would get the same run, have mostly the same parts internally so why would one cost way more than another?  If one sells out instantly, a 2nd run, maybe a 3rd.  If one sells poorly, don't expect another run of that game.  Or, maybe Atari sweetens the deal with the new game board conversion kit being a great game that requires that base cabinet to play on. 

Thing is: such items would be for only very few particulary interested retro-gamers - if not for sales to dedicated retro-game-parks/halls. Thst is; those who have the money and space (!) to collect arcade-cabinets at home.

They take a lot (!!!) of space, and are heavy in their old form, which are probably the reasons why Atari went for issuing the Abominable Arcades-that-should-not-be-thing.

For my own part I think its a good way to go - they just need to add more games, or also make cabinets with sticks that give the feelings of vehicle-steering and input a run of games like Red Baron, Battlezone, Star Wars and Empire Strikes back and perhaps Major Havoc (don’t what the original arcade used), I, Robot and some other stuff of like that.

I don’t think Atari alone could get such a collection done as of now, but perhaps in time.

I couldn’t personally afford to buy multiple cabinets - one for each game - and put aside space at home for many of these. I could find locations for 2 or 4 with some rearrangements, but then, I’d need to actually get hold of them, get them to my place etc.

Personally I like the modern-type home arcades with modern screens (I’d be more like top-notch OLED; yes, please, and then give us the necessary filter-options), and parts that are endurable. 
So I guess, you’d be bit more of purist than me here.

I want things to work, have the original feel, but in a general sense.

For me, some give-and-takes would have to happen, simply because I happen not to own personal game-hall. And I’d like more titles than 2-4.

One could also imagine a bigger thing for the most core-fans out there.

 

An cabinet the size and roughly the shape of Gauntlet, but instead of four controllers with fire-buttons, you’d have a wheel, a flight-stick, an arcade-stick and a track-ball.

 

How games are put into it could come in two main-categories:

Retro: insert the circuit boards you want, perhaps 4 slots.

Modern: just put in a modern-type memory card read by some strong modern hardware optimized for perfect emulation-of-everything. 
(I think we both know this last thing isn’t what you want, fair enough).

 

- - -

Price tags:

- well if something is exclusive and made to impact only smaller crowds of die-hard fans it will be more expensive to produce.

- if it contains pricey licenses, the product will cost more.

- if its built solidly and intentionally for being longlasting and enduring, a high-quality production just costs more than cheap parts glued or plastered together

Edited August 3, 2023 by Giles N

[ledzep]

11 hours ago, Giles N said:

Thing is: such items would be for only very few particulary interested retro-gamers - if not for sales to dedicated retro-game-parks/halls. Thst is; those who have the money and space (!) to collect arcade-cabinets at home.

 

True, but this thread wasn't about practical or popular, just what would I (you) want to be able to buy from Atari (not "What would you do to help Atari figure out all the logistics and marketing problems to make loads of money and sell lots of cool games...").  So in that fantasy Atari has figured out how to market these wishes correctly.  And believe me, if Atari was coming out with limited runs of duplicates (barring electronics improvements) of old-school arcade games (with the correct monitors and controls), collectors would come out of the woodwork for them.

 

11 hours ago, Giles N said:

They take a lot (!!!) of space, and are heavy in their old form, which are probably the reasons why Atari went for issuing the Abominable Arcades-that-should-not-be-thing.

 

So what if they're heavy, they're not meant to be portable.  How heavy is your refrigerator?  Nobody cares, you set it in place and forget about moving it again (unless you clean a lot).  Ya, they take a lot of space, so does furniture and A/V gear and whatever else is in a house (or outside it).  People who want that stuff will make the space, same goes for people who collect LEGO and home video game carts and vinyl and the rest, that shit piles up quick.

 

The Arcade1Up stuff has a place, they're really big toy versions of the real thing.  The anger comes from hearing that they're the same as the original cabinets, "just as good" or "indistinguishable from", which they absolutely are not.  Anyone who cannot see the obvious differences should not be allowed to play real arcade cabinets.

 

11 hours ago, Giles N said:

For my own part I think its a good way to go - they just need to add more games, or also make cabinets with sticks that give the feelings of vehicle-steering and input a run of games like Red Baron, Battlezone, Star Wars and Empire Strikes back and perhaps Major Havoc (don’t what the original arcade used), I, Robot and some other stuff of like that.

I don’t think Atari alone could get such a collection done as of now, but perhaps in time.

 

If you mean the Arcade1Up stuff, more of that is ok I guess (less butchering of real cabinets for 60-in-1 machines) but with flatscreen monitors and not being big enough, it gets very crowded trying to have 2 adults play one of those if there even is a 2-player option (I can't see Space Duel working with those midget cabs), but my fantasy uses the real, full-size cabinets from the days of yore.  Major Havoc used a roller (a single axis trak-ball or spinner), by the way.  I have 6 full-size cabs and 2 cocktails where I live and it's not a big house, either.  I think most people could get a couple favorites in their houses and then "double" that with conversion kits using the same controls (I mean, seriously, a Red Baron that could also play a hypothetical A-10 Warthog game would be fantastic).

 

I would love to see the failure that would be an Arcade1Up of Cinematronics games, trying to get 2 adults side-by-side to play Space Wars and Rip-Off, the absolute pain of playing those mostly button games like Star Castle and Armor..Attack on the shorter cab height.

 

11 hours ago, Giles N said:

I couldn’t personally afford to buy multiple cabinets - one for each game - and put aside space at home for many of these. I could find locations for 2 or 4 with some rearrangements, but then, I’d need to actually get hold of them, get them to my place etc.

 

Hence my dream scenario, now you could order your favorites (when they were announced).

 

11 hours ago, Giles N said:

Personally I like the modern-type home arcades with modern screens (I’d be more like top-notch OLED; yes, please, and then give us the necessary filter-options), and parts that are endurable. 
So I guess, you’d be bit more of purist than me here.

 

There's nothing "purist" about real arcade cabinets because they either are or they are not.  An Arcade1Up is in no way the same thing even though it looks superficially the same.  Would you consider a Ferrari to be the same as a Ferrari kit car built off the chassis of a Fiero?  You better say "No!".  There would be nothing "purist" there, either, because one is the actual thing, the other is a poor approximation.  If your date says she wants to go out for some authentic Mexican dinner and you take her to Taco Bell she has the legal right to punch your teeth out.  Not the same thing!

 

OLEDs have no place in '70s/'80s arcade games.  Neither do gamepads.

 

11 hours ago, Giles N said:

I want things to work, have the original feel, but in a general sense.

For me, some give-and-takes would have to happen, simply because I happen not to own personal game-hall. And I’d like more titles than 2-4.

 

You can't the have original feel, but in a general sense.  You either have the original feel or you do not.  I understand the lack of space, many people would have that same problem, but many people who are really into arcade games would already be working out how to deal with that problem (typically a spare bedroom or the garage, or who needs bookshelves anyway).

 

Also, brand new arcade cabinets with improved, new electronics would work just fine, I wasn't wishing for old gear that got a vacuuming and the vague hope that the game works for more than a month before the capacitors leak.  Brand new shit, with better control circuitry benefitting from decades of trouble-shooting and design improvements.

 

11 hours ago, Giles N said:

One could also imagine a bigger thing for the most core-fans out there.

 

An cabinet the size and roughly the shape of Gauntlet, but instead of four controllers with fire-buttons, you’d have a wheel, a flight-stick, an arcade-stick and a track-ball.

 

How games are put into it could come in two main-categories:

Retro: insert the circuit boards you want, perhaps 4 slots.

Modern: just put in a modern-type memory card read by some strong modern hardware optimized for perfect emulation-of-everything. 
(I think we both know this last thing isn’t what you want, fair enough).

 

That's not a bad idea but it's no on my list of things I want to be able to buy from Atari, that's apparently on your list.

 

11 hours ago, Giles N said:

Price tags:

- well if something is exclusive and made to impact only smaller crowds of die-hard fans it will be more expensive to produce.

- if it contains pricey licenses, the product will cost more.

- if its built solidly and intentionally for being longlasting and enduring, a high-quality production just costs more than cheap parts glued or plastered together

 

It's the same price to produce whether they make a hundred or them make 10,000, materials cost the same each time - wood is wood (or melanine), plastic is plastic, glass is glass.  What costs more is the tooling up to get them made, so if they're only ever going to make a hundred of them, the costs to get that to happen divided by a hundred, that ain't cheap.  But if they did my idea then the machinery to make the cabs would be the same for every cab design, it's just robotic saws or routers that cut out side/front/back panel after side/front/back panel, over and over.  If they committed to going through the whole line-up, meaning eventually there would be a Pole Position cab and a Dig Dug cab and every other Atari game, you add all those up, that's thousands of monitors and side molding/fire, 1-2 player buttons/marquee lightbulbs/joysticks/trak-balls/etc. spread out over the various runs, especially if they're sourcing much of that from 3rd parties that already make that crap so the prices aren't huge (and volume discounts), the only "new" stuff would be the monitors and the cabinets or something weird like a Lunar Lander throttle controller.

 

Retro arcades or pool halls or whatever would do the same thing as before, buy the cabinet and then take in all the quarters or tokens or credit card swipes as paying off the cabinet.  And if later they don't want that thing anymore, there would be enough private collectors who would be willing to take it off their hands (not for full price because it's had some miles put on it).

[Giles N]

Given the sitation at hand, I’d wish that Atari and Playmaji/PolyMega just takes fast steps to provide retro-accesibility for many categories of Atari-consoles as soon, and as easy as possible.

 

I would like to collect Lynx-games, but the screen and battery and all that is dated; I want on modern screen - handheld or console.

 

I’d like to pick up the best stuff on Jaguar, but not get one. 

 

Not sure what really came out as cartridges in the 8-bit family (besides the 5200 if you include that one, but I meant like the 800 or XL-something), but some of these games look really cool in own way.

 

I have many 7800 games. Some 2600 classics.

I’d like to know I can play them into the future without being encumbered by old hardware getting rarer and rarer, more and more expensive.

 

As of now, what I’d like to buy from Atari are

 

a) a full-deck Atari PolyMega module.

(yeah I know its a bit unrealistic, but why not dream a little hobby-dream from time to time)

 

b) reruns of old carts and cards with Atari getting licenses for limited reruns both on physical collectors editions, and ROM/download for the VCS. (A-hem, haven’t seen to many VCS around in my country, so perhaps such downloads should be multiplatform, but with much more extras for the VCS-versions).