So, Symphony of the Night on SNES ...

[roots.genoa]

5 hours ago, Biff Burgertime said:

I think there were 2 on the GBA, then 3 on the DS(?)

3 and 3 (also I once again disagree with Tanooki, Dawn of Sorrow is very similar but better than Aria imho, and my favorite one is the latest, Order of Ecclesia).

Edited January 17 by roots.genoa

[Tanooki]

Yes Harmony is easy.  The first time I played it I got maybe 2/3 into it and just got lost and confused due to a mix of not quite getting how castle a vs b worked, but also because of the empty spaces so I'd get spun around, aggravated and then grab another GBA cart.  I came back to it eventually and finished it, once you get over the confusion it's not so much a worse game in general, I mean it works, and is better than some other third party me-too tries but against the others it's a pair of great book ends to a mediocre bit of filler.

[turboxray]

9 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

3 and 3 (also I once again disagree with Tanooki, Dawn of Sorrow is very similar but better than Aria imho, and my favorite one is the latest, Order of Ecclesia).

The GBA ones are alright, but the DS ones are just better all around. I played them all in order, and OoE was my favorite of that genre for a while - was a fan of the sound track too. In between when the DS ones were coming out, I re-visited the last two GBA ones. I had less of an attachment on the second time playing through them again. I don't remember any of the GBA CV game soundtracks as particularly memorable or stand out to me - other than Harmony is poor and grates on the ears in some spots.

Edited January 17 by turboxray

[turboxray]

23 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Yes that explicitly.  The game felt like a step back from Super Castlevania IV to me even when it was new as I got the game not long after it came out picking up a Duo in 96/97.

The game came out in 1993. That's like 3-4 years after it came out.

 

23 hours ago, Tanooki said:

  Visually it was fine good detail sprites, knowing how colorful a PCE game could be, it felt a step back against that SNES game.  I don't hold it to fault for the transparencies and mode7 tricks that 91 game uses, but what the system usually was known to pull off could have bumped it up a good bit closer to the standard.  The sound (non music) was better to me on the SNES as well, CD though wins in the sample rate and quality on music but it wasn't like some huge gulf either.  Gameplay, the game felt like a throwback big time.  It was rigid and stiff, they redacted the smarter use of whip which could have been refined and developed further into better swinging mechanics that SCV kind of lacked and should have explored more.  The backflip was the one bonus I did like that, it was risk vs reward since you slide to a stop.  Rondo just didn't push things forward, some it did, and some it fell back into the stiffer more rigid style they did with the titles on the 8bit systems.  It's fine, it just felt like they decided to stick to what worked a generation earlier is all.  We're just not going to agree on this one.  At least this isn't some color blasting argument right.  And you are right about Maria, that is NOT an easy mode.

 I dunno man, there's just soo much to unpack between the two games. Too much to go into detail here, while I do love SCIV (especially for nostalgia reasons), it has a lot flaws.. and is experimental in its game mechanics/controls. It's not a forward evolution to the model.. it's a side-step experiment. Me thinks you really haven't given this a truly objective look, and it's just nostalgia or bias getting in the way. To sum it up; SCIV limp rotation whip model is ridiculous and unnecessary - it was there to help differentiate it from the original 8bit games (and not really good design or even though out). The character is too big, and most importantly the whip is too long while at the same time being too over-powered. The whip range being too long means everything is kept at a safe distance - this directly affects the pacing and energy of the game.. paired with its simplistic enemy AI/patterns. And having the mechanic of diagonal and straight up attack just really adds to this, makes the combat more boring. By comparison Rondo has tight responsive controls because you need to be reactive against the enemy AI patterns - it puts you right into the action and is constantly keeping you on your toes (SVCI does not do this, and neither do the 8bit games); if you're not using the backflip often, you're playing the game wrong. The sub-weapons (which is a staple of the series) are mostly an after-thought in SCIV which is also a tell-tale sign that had trouble balancing the whole gameplay mechanic change from the 8bit ones. This isn't from memory - I just played through Rondo from start to finish this past Monday, and then SCIV. Everything that makes Rondo fast, intense, responsive, complex, and high-energy/hectic with balance and perfect controls.. is what is missing from Dracula X SNES port. Just to note: SotN didn't add "limp whipping" and diagonal/straight-up whip attack abilities to Ritcher from SCIV.. for good reason.

 

 SCIV not an evolution, because it stopped with that game. Konami knew what they were doing when they tweaked Rondo to a near perfect balance and experience. Tighter controls, smaller character, non-overpowered which allowed items to be part of the gameplay, and enemies that could actually do something other than walking back and forth (which is a lot of SCIV design) or rotate around blocks. SCIV is very dated in gameplay design and stage design for that gameplay, in comparison to Rondo. Having to get whip extensions via candles is 8bit. SCVI shares more with its design (especially enemy patterns) with its 8bit roots than Rondo. I mean I love SCIV. I love the atmosphere and the sound track (even though it's different). The artwork for the backgrounds is still impressive today when you consider it's an early title (and cart size). And despite SCIV simpler gameplay mechanics and enemy patterns, I still come back to it simply because it's different and my nostalgia for it. But I'm not going to pretend that it's somehow an evolution over a Rondo, or that Rondo is a step back. 

 

23 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I do agree with you on bloodlines, kind of just did what the hardware was fairly well capable of, but also could have done better.  The turtles game people laughably pop up as an equal to turtles in time has the same problems, same developer, same team perhaps of people who got stuck into a rut perhaps of what they felt the system could do.  I like it, but it feels well, what you wrote, no reason to re-write that.

I would LOVE a remake of Bloodlines (on the MD too). An open-source CV engine would be great for that (and definitely new art assets). 

Edited January 17 by turboxray

[+Biff Burgertime]

So, @Kirk_Johnston on AtariAge...

[roots.genoa]

3 hours ago, turboxray said:

I don't remember any of the GBA CV game soundtracks as particularly memorable or stand out to me - other than Harmony is poor and grates on the ears in some spots.

Sound was clearly not GBA's forte unfortunately. 😔

 

2 hours ago, turboxray said:

SCIV limp rotation whip model is ridiculous and unnecessary

Completely agree, I always found it silly, just to show off.

 

To be fair, I'm not very nostalgic of the SNES since I didn't have any; I just used to borrow one from a friend sometimes. I mostly discovered SC4 on the Wii Virtual Console. I love the soundtrack (especially the sequence with the chandeliers) but got stuck at the ghost dancers. No savestate back then unfortunately... To be fair, I didn't go very far in Rondo of Blood on Wii either. But recently I restarted it on the Duo and managed to unlock Maria (which makes things easier, at least for me, although I just discovered this week she had a double jump 🤦‍♂️). I recently managed to beat the 4th boss, but the 5th level looks quite hard (those skeleton heads are quite nasty). Even though I really like the fact that there are saves, I'm not sure I'll be able to beat the game (at least without spending too much time) and I might take my PCE Mini out of its box to beat it with savestates, but clearly I find it more fun than any traditional Castlevania I've ever played. Although Rebirth on the Wii was really good too.

[WavyGravy]

3 hours ago, turboxray said:

Me thinks you really haven't given this a truly objective look, and it's just nostalgia or bias getting in the way. To sum it up; SCIV limp rotation whip model is ridiculous and unnecessary - it was there to help differentiate it from the original 8bit games (and not really good design or even though out).

Ooh, disagree. It's useful defensive combat option, and it adds a ton to the fluidity of the game's controls. Using it in the air to flick projectiles and candles away, or using it to set up a shield in some boss fights, there's plenty to do with it in the game. It's a defensive option for the most part and not something you generally want to attack with, but it's definitely useful when you know when to use it. And it was iterated upon and brought back in future games. Richter has it in SotN, Nathan has a version of it in CotM, Juste has it in HoD, Julius has it in AoS and DoS, and Jonathan has it in PoR. Simon's more free-form jumps from SCIV eventually became the norm as well, although that's likely more of a function of SotN's controls becoming normalized, with CotM probably being the closest to SCIV. If you're playing a whip-wielding character in a modern Castlevania, there's plenty of SCIV's DNA in there.

[Tanooki]

If I were home hours ago not at job 2 I would have added much of that there which Wavy said.  I don't agree, the whip was experimental and should have been seen as a positive, not a negative.  It worked great as a shield, a defensive move.  Small projectiles, even the axe I believe(axe knight) would fall to the whip if it were just draped in front of you (like the shield wall pop gun like in Another World) but you're stuck and a target from behind, yet you could swing it a bit in circles for a small cover that's a bit less effective as it rotates.  I found it quite useful as a tactic.  The whip never went away it just popped up in those forms he listed later and it was appreciated.

[roots.genoa]

I'm not claiming the whip was not useful, though, just that it looked silly to me. Yes, it's useful defensively, but who would protect themselves with a whip (at least that way, as a limp shield)?? I know, I know, it's a video game, not everything is supposed to make sense, but I still think it looks ridiculous. 😝

[Wayler]

The best part of the SCIV whip is the 8 main directions you can slash and not necessary the free wielding antics but combining the two also makes for a satisfying combo. Like whipping straight ahead and then leaving it to hang. Yea the whip is super strong and the sub-weapons play a minimal role in the game but so what, me thinks. That is what differentiates it from the rest of the series. It is so much fun to whip your way through the game. If you want more challenge (and/or frustration), other games in the series will provide that.

[turboxray]

19 hours ago, WavyGravy said:

Ooh, disagree. It's useful defensive combat option, and it adds a ton to the fluidity of the game's controls. Using it in the air to flick projectiles and candles away, or using it to set up a shield in some boss fights, there's plenty to do with it in the game. It's a defensive option for the most part and not something you generally want to attack with, but it's definitely useful when you know when to use it. And it was iterated upon and brought back in future games. Richter has it in SotN, Nathan has a version of it in CotM, Juste has it in HoD, Julius has it in AoS and DoS, and Jonathan has it in PoR. Simon's more free-form jumps from SCIV eventually became the norm as well, although that's likely more of a function of SotN's controls becoming normalized, with CotM probably being the closest to SCIV. If you're playing a whip-wielding character in a modern Castlevania, there's plenty of SCIV's DNA in there.

Wow... I stand corrected: 

I played every single one of those games and never used it. I don't even remember them in game, with the exception of CotM which that attack was nice because it's not implemented like the rest and don't consider it the same (didn't have that weird limp whip physics). I still maintain that's mostly useless. I never used it in any of those games, and in SCIV I rarely use it (I also dislike the timing of it too.. you can accidentally trigger Brandish whip mode which is annoying). They added that to Ritcher in SotN but none of the directional attacks (which is my primary post between the two).. also missing is the jump direction attack.

 

 But none of that changes what I said about SCIV design vs Rondo's design; Gameplay, mechanics, and design related to stage and enemy AI/pattern and how that impacts the style of Rondo design/feel is the direction the series took in later games. That's an evolutionary step over SCIV by comparison.

 

[roots.genoa]

Well, to be fair, starting with SotN, the whip is just one weapon among many...

[Razzie.P]

I thought SoTN on SNes had a bunch of goombas and chess pieces or something.   Think I saw that somewhere 

[Tanooki]

Well duh it does, I mean isn't that normal on Nintendo?  I mean look at Link's Awakening.

 

Bits n Beats is fantastic, they do good work with just simple text, the games and little else...no blathering.