RevEng Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Defender_2600 said: Yes I know, one of those people is me ( ) and, in a superficial way, I am generally only referring to what will be seen on the screen without explaining how it is happening (and I would do it wrong). [...] Anyway I apologize if I'm not considering artifacts when I show my graphic examples. No apologies needed. I don't expect everybody to hobby the same way I do, and ignoring composite artifacting is a perfectly valid thing to do. On your topic of a post-composite world, my own view is a display that's incapable of composite artifacting is deficient for retro consoles. Tower Toppler and Rikki+Vikki use composite artifacting for color. I used composite artifacting in the Petscii Instruction screens for a splash of color. Even when composite artifacting is accidental and ugly, I still want it displayed that way on my screen, because that's how it truly would have been seen back in the day. For me, bypassing artifacting feels like an artificial enhancement, along the same lines as using a pixel art scaling algorithm in an emulator. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBall Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 7 hours ago, Defender_2600 said: Can/should artifacts be ignored? I'd argue they shouldn't be. Tower Toppler, for example, uses artifacts to great effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Karl G Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 10 hours ago, RevEng said: Yes and no. Here's a diagonal line that avoids artifacting, while still using 320 resolution... Okay, thank you, that clears up a misconception I had nicely. I had thought that pixel pairs were only defined based on 160 pixel coordinates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 18 hours ago, EricBall said: I'd argue they shouldn't be. Tower Toppler, for example, uses artifacts to great effect. Certainly. To be clearer, I was not referring to games for which the developers have voluntarily chosen to use artifacts, obviously these games should be played with artifacts if conditions allow it. I was referring to today's scenario, since today we have the ability to view the 7800 via S-Video, component, RGB, VGA, HDMI, emulation and even RF + excellent comb filter, so today a developer can decide which result and/or public prefers to privilege. As I was saying before, back in the day some Atari 8-bit (and the C64) were equipped with S-Video and the 7800 PAL had some sort of RGB (and also the Sega Master System) so when I draw graphics in 320 mode without considering artifacts I don't feel like I'm getting an artificial result, but that's just my opinion. I like to imagine an alternative scenario, where the 7800 achieved sales success and then got a hardware upgrade with S-Video. I am enthusiastic about every new software and hardware resource, for example every new bankswitching scheme, and in the same way I don't consider a 7800 with S-Video to be an artificial system, but again that's just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 3 hours ago, Karl G said: Okay, thank you, that clears up a misconception I had nicely. I had thought that pixel pairs were only defined based on 160 pixel coordinates. For 320 and composite artifacting, no. There are color restrictions on 320 color modes that do get impacted by the 160 mode grid. (easier to think of it as 320 mode pixel pairs) 320A does have a pixel pair quirk, but it manifests with transparent pixels paired with lit pixels showing up as background color instead of transparent. It's usually a very subtle effect, though you can amplify it if you try hard. (e.g. use a bright background register color, and paint background tiles dark) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 The other thing about composite artifacting, is it happens in the 160 resolution too, just less strongly. From the 7800 color documentation wiki entry, here's an example of artifacting colors from two different composite displays... ...from left to right, the first two colors are produced by alternating light and dark pixels. The second (striped) set of colors are produced by alternating pairs of light and dark pixels. (i.e. 160 resolution). This is part of the reason why graphics seem a bit more sterile when displayed on an emulator with lcd vs console with composite device. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+saxmeister Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 One of the things that I have found helps me is using GIMP and configuring the grid in a 2x1 configuration. That way I can always view the pairs of pixels and assign the colors. First, show the grid. The, configure the grid. Then, set the grid size to be Horizontal: 2, Vertical: 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 I wrote a proof of concept a while back. I need to get back to it and turn it into a real game, rather than just a display test, but all of the enemies use 320c. phoenix.bas.a78 22 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Muddyfunster Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 That's fantastic Mike 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sramirez2008 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 13 hours ago, RevEng said: I wrote a proof of concept a while back. I need to get back to it and turn it into a real game, rather than just a display test, but all of the enemies use 320c. phoenix.bas.a78 48.13 kB · 8 downloads Please finish this game. Pretty please. I promise to test as much as possible, with whatever combination of controllers you want to support. This looks great and sounds pretty good too. 👍 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 13 hours ago, RevEng said: I wrote a proof of concept a while back. I need to get back to it and turn it into a real game, rather than just a display test, but all of the enemies use 320c. phoenix.bas.a78 48.13 kB · 4 downloads *THIS* is my favorite golden age Arcade shooter. Gorf and Satan's Hollow fight for number 2. Number 1 spot will always go to Phoenix. The proof of concept is wonderful. Love the detailed scroll and enemies look fantastic; as does the player ship. Font looks great! *Sending positive motivational vibes for this to be turned into a full blown game* 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sramirez2008 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 4 minutes ago, Trebor said: *Sending positive motivational vibes for this to be turned into a full blown game* * Me too. Not trying to be pushy, but I can't wait to see the Space Ship Boss screen. That Boss is Boss!🙃 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Atarius Maximus Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Phoenix was also a favorite of mine, one of my friends had the 2600 cart when I was young. It looks great Mike! 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sramirez2008 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 The Power of the 7800! 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrekMD Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 14 hours ago, RevEng said: I wrote a proof of concept a while back. I need to get back to it and turn it into a real game, rather than just a display test, but all of the enemies use 320c. phoenix.bas.a78 48.13 kB · 11 downloads Yes please, finish this! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Karl G Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 18 hours ago, RevEng said: I wrote a proof of concept a while back. I need to get back to it and turn it into a real game, rather than just a display test, but all of the enemies use 320c. phoenix.bas.a78 48.13 kB · 19 downloads This isn't one I played BITD, but the look and feel is fantastic! Great sprites, animations, sound and explosion effects! I'm afraid that you are going to have to finish this one. Sorry... I don't make the rules. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Was only able to test this on in bupchip as A7800 is giving me issues again on my computer. But what is there certainly looks the part and I'd play it! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Sign me up! This really needs to happen 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Wow, this looks and sounds great in A7800. I would love to play a full game version of this. PHOENIX is a vastly under-rated shooter, one of the first ones with a boss level. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubledown Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 I'm already ready for this one: ...bring it on! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 5 hours ago, doubledown said: I'm already ready for this one: ...bring it on! The Arcade control experience was like this for me: A button could be added in-between and slightly below the two sets of buttons to provide Asteroids (Deluxe) compatibility as well. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubledown Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 2 hours ago, Trebor said: The Arcade control experience was like this for me: I don't think I've ever played an actual Phoenix cabinet...but I am definitely partial to cocktail tables, and I found these little beauties: ...a couple of years ago. 😁 The installed white ball knobs, when I got them, were "wrong" of course: ...so I righted that wrong when I built my controller. 😉 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 *cough*Pleaides*cough* 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+cjherr Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said: *cough*Pleaides*cough* Absolutely! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sramirez2008 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 On 3/9/2024 at 5:18 PM, RevEng said: I wrote a proof of concept a while back. I need to get back to it and turn it into a real game, rather than just a display test, but all of the enemies use 320c. phoenix.bas.a78 48.13 kB · 73 downloads Look what I came across today.😀 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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