New Atari 800XL Revive Machine?

[+gnusto]

52 minutes ago, MrFish said:

I realise that already. I made my point. I didn't make any claims about safety of the product if they don't use the Atari name or logo.

 

I'm not interested in starting any silly debates. You can save your walls of text for someone else, because I won't be reading them.

 

This is something worth being hostile about? I wasn't saying anything pertaining to you, just explaining that there are in fact Atari owned concepts on the machine proposed. Since I had no intent of offense, sorry if it occurred.

[Forrest]

You might try watching GenXGrownUp YouTube - it’s a good YouTube site.

[+MrFish]

5 hours ago, gnusto said:

This is something worth being hostile about?

I didn't intend to sound hostile; just not interested in reading or responding to long posts about legalities. I have few comments on the subject and intend to keep it that way. I have plenty of thoughts on all relative matters concerning hardware and software rights and legalities; but they're not the kind of thing I'm interested to discuss (it's somewhat like religion and politics to me, when it comes to discussing) -- mainly because these things almost invariably start spinning out of control once they get started; and explanations/clarifications and debates can eat up a lot of time. I usually pick my point to bail, and I'll bail early on this one.

 

5 hours ago, gnusto said:

I wasn't saying anything pertaining to you, just explaining that there are in fact Atari owned concepts on the machine proposed.

In that case, I was probably a little harsh (in the second part of my message). You probably have an informative post there; but I still don't want to read it.

 

5 hours ago, gnusto said:

Since I had no intent of offense, sorry if it occurred.

No offense taken then. It started to sound like a rebuttal -- when I read the first part; so, I just wanted to be clear and short. Sorry for not being a little more tactful. I don't have anything against you personally.

 

[+gnusto]

19 hours ago, MrFish said:

No offense taken then

All good then, glad it was just a misunderstanding (and that I type too much). Carry on with the 8-bitness!

[tebe]

 

[donjn]

6 minutes ago, tebe said:

 

Just watched this, I don't get it.

Yes the hardware is there and looks good. But showing that I expected the main Atari blue screen to come up.

[+scorpio_ny]

1 hour ago, donjn said:

Just watched this, I don't get it.

Yes the hardware is there and looks good. But showing that I expected the main Atari blue screen to come up.

My guess is that they have locked on the design portion of the motherboard. Software may take more time refine and test. I am curious to on how compatible it will be with existing hardware and software. Also, will there be any enhancements (faster clock speed, additional graphics modes)?

[reifsnyderb]

1 hour ago, donjn said:

Just watched this, I don't get it.

Yes the hardware is there and looks good. But showing that I expected the main Atari blue screen to come up.

Yeah, Where's the "Ready" prompt?

[Havok69]

 

45 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

Yeah, Where's the "Ready" prompt?

Well, it's not ready!

[+gnusto]

Agree it's a weird choice given that they had already showed us this motherboard. The non-Atari color test doesn't really tell us anything. Still a fan of the idea though.

 

[as...]

22 hours ago, Havok69 said:

 

Well, it's not ready!

ready will be later

[mimo]

I keep hearing YouTubers saying that this has been killed by the people making "THE 400" anyone know if that us the case as the first signs of life video appeared way after the C&D order

[pseudografx]

As far as I know, the project is still pretty much alive. Not sure how they'll handle the external design though to avoid IP issues.

[+scorpio_ny]

I am curious though: who owns the intellectual rights to the Atari OS ROMs? Or are they in the public domain now? If they are not in the public domain, they will either need to get a license to use the OS ROMs, have a clean room derivative or have the user download them and install them for use.

[Albert]

7 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

I am curious though: who owns the intellectual rights to the Atari OS ROMs? Or are they in the public domain now? If they are not in the public domain, they will either need to get a license to use the OS ROMs, have a clean room derivative or have the user download them and install them for use.

I have to assume that Atari would still own the rights to the Atari 8-bit OS, like any other software they may have created back then.

 

 ..Al

[THX-1138]

Maybe they'll include the Altirra ROMs by default and allow users to add their own via SD.

[pcrow]

6 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

I am curious though: who owns the intellectual rights to the Atari OS ROMs? Or are they in the public domain now? If they are not in the public domain, they will either need to get a license to use the OS ROMs, have a clean room derivative or have the user download them and install them for use.

I would assume they're using the Altirra OS and BASIC.  My understanding is that it's a clean rewrite, so there's no copyright issue with including it.  Of course, once someone buys one, it's probably easy enough to switch if they have a different one they would prefer.

 

All copyrights and trademarks are still in force, but all patents have expired, including design patents.  It's possible Atari filed for a trademark on the image of the 800XL, though that would surprise me.

 

It's possible that there is copyright protection on the custom chips, and since they're being directly emulated in an FPGA based on the original designs, that could be a problem  If they are using fresh reimplementations, then that's not an issue, but it could reduce compatibility.  I'm not sure what the availability of such new implementations is for Pokey, Antic, and GTIA.

[pcrow]

A quick search suggests that the Atari custom chips are not protected by patent or copyright, as the are from before 1984 when such protections weren't available.  I'm not a lawyer, but it's looking like it would be difficult to find a way to block this project through legitimate intellectual property claims, though that wouldn't stop someone from trying to stop it by making the legal expenses prohibitive.

 

https://revisionlegal.com/copyright/mask-works-101-copyright-protections-for-semiconductor-chip-products/

[+scorpio_ny]

@Albert and @pcrow,

Thank you for the clarification!

 

@pcrow: This was interesting, so I took read at Wiki entry. It is not a copyright law but a Sui generis law. It is a general protection for the chip mask at the time of registration. Protection is given for 10 years after the registration. Also, it does not give protection for reverse engineering, so FPGA implementations I assume would be safe since it is not using a chip mask.

 

Edited January 23 by scorpio_ny
Added more text

[Mark2008]

Realistically how many are they going to sell, this is a "higher end" project than the A400 Mini, in my view.

I'm interested in it.  But if they sell 200 I'd be surprised.  I don't know - wild guess.  I'm glad it exists, erm, potentially exists soon.  Personally, I don't see much reason to think it is a problem for anyone, both from a competitive standpoint or legal one.

 

Here is how I view things,  the TI-99/4A sold about 2.8 million units BITD, and the Atari 8-bit line, maybe 4 million.

 

But the continued interest in Atari 8-bit as compared to the TI s far greater than those original sales numbers would suggest.  And that's because of the decision all those years ago for Atari to open up on you program the thing, De Re Atari, the encouragement of home development of software and hardware add-ons, compared to TI's 'razors and blades' mentality and suing of 3rd party software developers.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents, modern day Atari should recognize that these homages are good for their continuing brand, developing a reputation for lawsuits is the opposite of what I'd expect from a home computer pioneer.  The revolution is for the masses, power without the price. boo ya.

 

 

 

 

[mimo]

18 hours ago, pseudografx said:

As far as I know, the project is still pretty much alive. Not sure how they'll handle the external design though to avoid IP issues.

Thanks, That's what I thought too.
And thanks to everyone else for your input.
As for how many will sell, I have no idea but in the low to mid hundreds would be my guess. A lot depends on price and feature set.
Sure it's aimed a totally different market to the 400 mini.
I initially got very excited about the mini, but that's worn off pretty quickly and now unsure if I will go through with my pre-order as I have so many other/better ways to emulate the 400/800/xl/xe including MiSTer, Pi4,Xbox etc etc etc

[+Philsan]

17 hours ago, Mark2008 said:

...

the TI-99/4A sold about 2.8 million units BITD, and the Atari 8-bit line, maybe 4 million.

...

IMHO the difference should be greater, Atari sold at least 5 millions, considered

- in 1984 Atari told that there were 4 million owners of computers and 5200 consoles

- products lifespan: Atari 1979-1991 / TI 1979-1984

- in the nineties Atari machines were successful in Eastern Europe

- # of models introduced: Atari 400, 800, XL, XE, XEGS / TI 99/4 and TI 99/4A

- nowadays Atari scene seems more active than TI's one.

[Mark2008]

9 hours ago, Philsan said:

IMHO the difference should be greater, Atari sold at least 5 millions, considered

- in 1984 Atari told that there were 4 million owners of computers and 5200 consoles

- products lifespan: Atari 1979-1991 / TI 1979-1984

- in the nineties Atari machines were successful in Eastern Europe

- # of models introduced: Atari 400, 800, XL, XE, XEGS / TI 99/4 and TI 99/4A

- nowadays Atari scene seems more active than TI's one.

That's good discussion, and I admit I took the sales estimate from Wikipedia.

 

I notice Facebook Atari 8-bit Computers (private) has 12.2K members, and the Facebook group "Texas Instruments TI-99/4A" (private) has 1.1K members.  And although I have never visited it, just to throw in another metric, Commodore 64 (C64) (private) 44.4K members. 

 

 

Well of course this is not a perfect metric, the size of a Facebook group depends in part on the history of the group itself, when it started, how many schisms the group may have endured, whether there are multiple such groups or competing non-facebook platforms, whether membership is public or private, etc.

 

But, that group size, along with other metrics, say new software released each year, hints to me, there are differences in continuing popularity not explained by original marketshare alone.

 

I wasn't curious about this as a some kind of contest, of course, and the TI community is quite interesting.

 

[mattsoft]

No offense to the Atari 400 mini, but I don't really want another ARM-based software emulation device. The RM800XL appears to be a much better recreation of the A8 with modern updates than the stuff coming out of Atari. Hoping they make it to the finish line!

Edited January 25 by mattsoft

[Overange]

8 hours ago, Mark2008 said:

 

 

I notice Facebook Atari 8-bit Computers (private) has 12.2K members, and the Facebook group "Texas Instruments TI-99/4A" (private) has 1.1K members.  And although I have never visited it, just to throw in another metric, Commodore 64 (C64) (private) 44.4K members. 

 

 

Atari and Commodore were more popular in the UK and Europe compared to the Texas Instruments Computers for several reasons.

 

In addition to Atari and Commodore, locally made computers such as the Sinclair ZX Spectrum and Amstrad CPC series were also highly popular in the UK and Europe. These systems were not only competitively priced but also benefited from being designed and manufactured domestically, fostering a sense of national pride and support among consumers. The availability of locally made computers further contributed to their popularity, as they were often perceived as more tailored to the preferences and needs of the UK and European markets. Additionally, local manufacturing facilitated easier access to customer support and repair services, which enhanced the overall user experience and satisfaction with these platforms.

 

Overall, a combination of factors including affordability, software library, hardware capabilities, third-party support, marketing efforts, and local manufacturing contributed to the greater popularity of Atari and Commodore computers in the UK and Europe compared to the Texas Instruments Computers.