WISHFUL THINKING: I was wondering - how many if you would've wanted a 5200 "in XEGS clothing"?

[zzip]

On 6/10/2023 at 2:01 AM, christo930 said:

There was also a major recession at the time with nearly 11% unemployment. Most of us were kids at the time and so recessions really didn't exist for us.  People tend to put off something like a game console when economic times are bad. 82 was the worst year since the great depression, at least as far as unemployment goes.

When your father is among that 11% then recessions exist for kids  I wouldn't have dreamed of asking for a Colecovision or 5200 in 82 because of that.

 

Oddly though, videogames boomed during that recession and as the economy started to recover in 83, videogames crashed.

[christo930]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:10 PM, x=usr(1536) said:

Note the emphasis on 'practically'.  We're 40 (almost 41) years removed from its launch, and the poor image has been largely gathered post-discontinuation of the machine.  No implication was made that it was launched and immediately disliked, but, as we've both seen, opinion - favourable or otherwise - loves to propagate itself unchecked.  That's the situation the machine finds itself in, rightly or wrongly.

It doesn't help that it gets constantly attacked by  youtubers, especially younger youtubers in the game space on youtube and other internet sites (I don't follow Twitch, but it is probably the same there).  The AVGN's coverage of the 5200 was one long gag about how much it sucks before he even plays a single game.  I would think the 5200's image is far worse today than it was in the early-mid 80s.  Think about how much modern criticism is based on the electronic switch on the back of the TV.  Back then, they weren't dragging 5200s home from flea markets missing the power supply and switch that goes on the back of the TV.  Though the controllers were never perfect, they worked a lot better when new, especially the buttons which didn't have 40 years of oxidation on the carbon pad.  Of course, they were buying the games new with instructions and overlays.  It's not always clear what you are supposed to do or how you are supposed to do it without reading said instructions.

[+bent_pin]

On 5/24/2023 at 8:04 PM, Stephen said:

OMFG - I need one of those adapters.  Where can I buy one?

Find the schematics for it. It can't be all that much inside.

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, christo930 said:

AVGN

Well, there's the problem.  He's only an authority about being a one-dimensional YouTube presenter whose limited appeal wore off long ago; anything involving actual knowledge of video games is best left to just about anyone else.

 

That said, though, I agree with the point you're making.  So what would you suggest as a remedy?  I can safely say that I don't have one.

[baktra]

On 6/8/2023 at 10:26 AM, MrFish said:

I'll tell you what I've found out, after attending the 5200 and 8-bit forums for over 18 years now: generally speaking, people who attend the 5200 forums are highly unappreciative of almost any software development. If you take a look at almost any software posted, you'll see the downloads in the hundreds (often 300 - 400 downloads or more), yet paltry few likes and/or comments. I first started to notice this back when I was doing hacks for the 8-bits and following up by applying the hacks to the 5200 versions of the same games. I'd get hundreds of downloads and nearly no likes or comments. After having this happen for several different hacks -- which were quite well-liked by the 8-bit crowd -- I said screw it, and stopped applying the hacks for the 5200. It's not that I don't like seeing the 5200 system get some love, but it's as if 5200 forum participants in general have no interest in supporting any software efforts; and the thing is, it's generally freely done software. Most software efforts aren't done for money here; but crap... gratitude is in the toilet.

 

The likes feel good, but I do not or rather did not write code for them. The 5200 community is small, given the fate of the console, so one cannot expect that much traffic here. I would say, code and create for your own satisfaction and do not bother with feedback too much.

 

By the way, is there any website that lists all 5200 homebrews? Forum threads are foggy.

[baktra]

20 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Well, there's the problem.  He's only an authority about being a one-dimensional YouTube presenter whose limited appeal wore off long ago; anything involving actual knowledge of video games is best left to just about anyone else.

 

That said, though, I agree with the point you're making.  So what would you suggest as a remedy?  I can safely say that I don't have one.

AVGN is supposed to be funny and inevitably superficial. I don't mind AVGN, I would say I even like him. For a serious review, I would look somewhere else. His 5200 review was nothing but a parody.

[zzip]

1 minute ago, baktra said:

AVGN is supposed to be funny and inevitably superficial. I don't mind AVGN, I would say I even like him. For a serious review, I would look somewhere else. His 5200 review was nothing but a parody.

Yeah, You just have to realize AVGN was playing a character.   People around here take him too seriously.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, baktra said:

AVGN is supposed to be funny and inevitably superficial. I don't mind AVGN, I would say I even like him. For a serious review, I would look somewhere else. His 5200 review was nothing but a parody.

I neither care for or about AVGN.  He has his schtick and that's fine; I just find no appeal in watching a middle-aged man throw tantrums over video games for the camera.

2 hours ago, zzip said:

Yeah, You just have to realize AVGN was playing a character.   People around here take him too seriously.

He was very clearly playing a character.  Thing is, that character has been used - here and elsewhere - as somehow being an authority on whatever it was he was covering.  The (mis-) information then spreads, as we've seen before.  Bravo, Internet!

[+MrFish]

5 hours ago, baktra said:

The likes feel good, but I do not or rather did not write code for them. The 5200 community is small, given the fate of the console, so one cannot expect that much traffic here. I would say, code and create for your own satisfaction and do not bother with feedback too much.

You misunderstand. Let me clarify. I need no outside motivation for working on the 8-bit computers (programming, graphics, websites). It has its own rewards for me. Response on the 8-bit forums probably affects how much I share about what I'm working on, to some degree; but it has little to no effect on whether I continue to work on things. I'm all in with it as a hobby. I like it.

 

For the 5200, things are different. I've already satisfied my interest when I work on something for the 8-bit computers. I also do not own a 5200. Therefore, it's an act of charity. Time is precious to me. The time it takes to copy over bytes for a hack isn't always particularly significant; but it's certainly time that could be spent in other ways. I suppose the number of downloads could be a motivating factor in terms of response, for some people, and I do consider that too; but then 300 people could download something and just toss it afterwards, if they don't like it (or whatever), right? Responding -- in some tangible way -- lets the person know that their time is valued. If people see little or no value to the time I'm spending to help them out, then my motivation starts going down.

 

Also, my point about the many downloads is that apparently the 5200 community (in the broad sense) isn't all that small. So, I get the sense that 5200 community generally doesn't care whether or not new or updated software is created for the system. And if they don't care, then neither do I about producing it. I'll put my time back into what I'm interested in doing.
 

[+MrFish]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

The (mis-) information then spreads, as we've seen before.  Bravo, Internet!

He may be exaggerating (which everybody knows is for the sake humor and drama), but the main points he's making are reality.

1. No end labels. Not having end labels sucks.

2. The controllers have serious failure issues.

3. Pumping electricity through the RF modulator was a bad choice -- which was basically admitted by Atari when they eliminated it.

4. The console is a bit oversized. It may be a plus or not a big deal for some people; but it's a fact worth noting.

5. 3rd party controllers exist, but there are factors to be aware of regarding them.

6. The 5200 failed (and disappeared) as the successor to the 2600; meanwhile, life continued on for the 2600 many years.

 

[phuzaxeman]

37 minutes ago, MrFish said:

 

 

Also, my point about the many downloads, is that apparently the 5200 community (in the broad sense) isn't all that small. So, I get the sense that 5200 community generally doesn't care whether or not new or updated software is created for the system. And if they don't care, then neither do I about producing it. I'll put my time back into what I'm interested in doing.
 

I have thanked every programmer that have offered their work on Atariage. I appreciate your work and others that have contributed to the 5200. I also have put my money to support the homebrews that have been released over the years.  Not every 5200 owner here is ungrateful. 

[+MrFish]

34 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

I have thanked every programmer that have offered their work on Atariage. I appreciate your work and others that have contributed to the 5200. I also have put my money to support the homebrews that have been released over the years.  Not every 5200 owner here is ungrateful. 

Yes, there are some individuals, like yourself, who care about it. It's too bad there aren't more. I do see a fair amount of support for @Ryan Witmer's work. Also, I should note, that, even though I don't own a 5200, I always support those working on development; because I'd like to see the system continue getting more software. Plus, in my eyes, if they're working on the 5200, they're working on the 8-bit computers -- even if they don't end up porting their work over. It's the same basic hardware.

 

TBH, I'm making my judgement based on a the few hacks that I carried over from the 8-bits quite a few years ago (2015, 2016..); but I seriously got no response whatsoever for them (except for the hundreds of downloads). It's possible things have changed over the years, somewhat, since then.

 

Here are the threads where they were posted.

HERO Improvements

Centipede - Namco Font

 

I may have done one or two more hacks before quitting. I don't recall exactly.

 

[+MrFish]

18 minutes ago, MrFish said:

I may have done one or two more hacks before quitting. I don't recall exactly.

It looks like I posted some of the early changes for this hack too. Apparently I didn't carry it further. I don't see anything else in my project folder (for the 5200 version).

Dig Dug - Graphic Improvements

 

[phuzaxeman]

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

Yes, there are some individuals, like yourself, who care about it. It's too bad there aren't more. I do see a fair amount of support for @Ryan Witmer's work. Also, I should note, that, even though I don't own a 5200, I always support those working on development; because I'd like to see the system continue getting more software. Plus, in my eyes, if they're working on the 5200, they're working on the 8-bit computers -- even if they don't end up porting their work over. It's the same basic hardware.

 

TBH, I'm making my judgement based on a the few hacks that I carried over from the 8-bits quite a few years ago (2015, 2016..); but I seriously got no response whatsoever for them (except for the hundreds of downloads). It's possible things have changed over the years, somewhat, since then.

 

Here are the threads where they were posted.

HERO Improvements

Centipede - Namco Font

 

I may have done one or two more hacks before quitting. I don't recall exactly.

 

The details of your updates are great! Thanks again for those updates.  I'm not always on here so I missed these.

 

If you look at @ryan's threads there are a lot of members that have been grateful.

 

I think there's a lot of 5200 emulator people that come and go that are downloading that don't always say thanks.  But if you've been Facebook, there's a lot of people that truly are thankful for people like you and other programmers for their generosity. 

 

I played the 5200 from 82-84.  From 84-into the 90's, it was all the 8bit.  Unless one have owned the 5200, the 5200 and 8bit have different experiences. Centipede alone is a perfect example. Th 8bit version vs 5200 is totally different based on the analog/trackball alone.

 

If you play Intellidiscs with the 5200 controls, it's also much different.  There's an Intellivision feel that the 8bit joystick lacks that the 5200 can recreate because of the keypad.  It's those details for a purist gamer like me that understands that.

 

You cannot play properly 5200 Realsports Baseball on the 8bit because of the limitations on the controller.  If I want to bunt, the 5200 allows you to move the analog stick half way which a digital stick cannot do. Also, when I want to throw, I press the top button (an Atari stick has only 1) to select the player who I'm throwing on defense.  It's those details that are left out when people make a debate between the 8bit vs 5200.  I come from both sides but my 5200 gets more playtime in 2023.   

[phuzaxeman]

2 hours ago, MrFish said:

He may be exaggerating (which everybody knows is for the sake humor and drama), but the main points he's making are reality.

1. No end labels. Not having end labels sucks.

2. The controllers have serious failure issues.

3. Pumping electricity through the RF modulator was a bad choice -- which was basically admitted by Atari when they eliminated it.

4. The console is a bit oversized. It may be a plus or not a big deal for some people; but it's a fact worth noting.

5. 3rd party controllers exist, but there are factors to be aware of regarding them.

6. The 5200 failed (and disappeared) as the successor to the 2600; meanwhile, life continued on for the 2600 many years.

 

1. I prefer the clean look on my shelf. End labels are overrated.

2. The controls are great. I have the scores that prove it. I'll challenge anyone on Centipede using the stock controls. The failure is the flex and the buttons.  I have 12+ year old controls from the upgrades.  I've broken 3 2600 sticks since then.

4. The oversized console allows me to store my controllers and protect them.  That's why my controllers have lasted 12+ years.

5. I don't need 3rd party controls because of the upgrades like new flex and gold dot buttons.

6. Every Atari console not name the 2600 failed in the grand scheme of things. But programmers like you and fans like me have the 5200 living today.  More people are joining the 5200 cult.  

[christo930]

4 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

I neither care for or about AVGN.  He has his schtick and that's fine; I just find no appeal in watching a middle-aged man throw tantrums over video games for the camera.

90 plus percent of youtube gaming applicable to our niche is garbage.  They are so narcissistic they have to have to have their face on the screen at all times so that if they show the game at all, the game is only 1/3 of the YT window.   Most of the game stuff I watch on youtube is just videos of longplays. I like to watch them and think "Gee, I wish I could play games that well!"

 

I watched the AVGN video on 5200 probably, I want to say 10 years ago.  But really the whole show is just a gag and not any kind of good review or something.

 

I've also learned that you cannot take a YouTuber's word on ANYTHING.  If they tell you they love their mother, it's probably a lie.  Though I would think it's not as prevalent on our little niche (being too small), they give glowing reviews to games they've probably never even played.  Everyone has a price and youtube has shown just how low that price is.  They second they get like 5k subs, the shitty "reviews" are coming.

4 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

He was very clearly playing a character.  Thing is, that character has been used - here and elsewhere - as somehow being an authority on whatever it was he was covering.

Please don't think I was invoking him as an authority.  Plus, I get that it's a gag, but he has got millions of views.  Like it or not, people will tend to take these kind of gags seriously.  That was Jon Stewart's thing. He played the news as a gag and always fell back to 'it's a gag' when called out on it, but a lot people, especially Millennials, took him seriously as a news source.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

3 minutes ago, christo930 said:

90 plus percent of youtube gaming applicable to our niche is garbage.  They are so narcissistic they have to have to have their face on the screen at all times so that if they show the game at all, the game is only 1/3 of the YT window.   Most of the game stuff I watch on youtube is just videos of longplays. I like to watch them and think "Gee, I wish I could play games that well!"

Totally agreed.  The channels that I actually bother with are the ones where the focus is on the subject, not the presenter.  Having someone on screen isn't the issue; having someone on screen who is only there because they love seeing themselves on YouTube is.  Ego before content is an instant walkaway.

5 minutes ago, christo930 said:

I watched the AVGN video on 5200 probably, I want to say 10 years ago.  But really the whole show is just a gag and not any kind of good review or something.

Understood.  I watched him a few times in his early days and just got tired of the schtick.  Too much of a one-trick pony.

6 minutes ago, christo930 said:

I've also learned that you cannot take a YouTuber's word on ANYTHING.  If they tell you they love their mother, it's probably a lie.  Though I would think it's not as prevalent on our little niche (being too small), they give glowing reviews to games they've probably never even played.  Everyone has a price and youtube has shown just how low that price is.  They second they get like 5k subs, the shitty "reviews" are coming.

Part of that, I think, is down to how YouTube's metrics work against smaller channels.  I am not going to pretend to have any great insight into this as I'm not a YouTuber, but it basically boils down to people with unrealistic expectations of making a living from their hobby videos following inane advice in search of monetisation.  See: thumbnail face for an example.

10 minutes ago, christo930 said:

Please don't think I was invoking him as an authority.

Not at all - that part of my post was intended to be in response to someone else who alluded to people doing that.  I'm not sure why anyone would, but, well, Internet.  Apologies if it appeared directed at you.

10 minutes ago, christo930 said:

Plus, I get that it's a gag, but he has got millions of views.  Like it or not, people will tend to take these kind of gags seriously.  That was Jon Stewart's thing. He played the news as a gag and always fell back to 'it's a gag' when called out on it, but a lot people, especially Millennials, took him seriously as a news source.

Exactly.  If there's one thing that the miracle of modern communications have made possible to an incredibly high standard, it's the ability of people who don't think for themselves to congregate and spread half-baked thoughts around the world at the speed of light.

[BIGHMW]

5 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Part of that, I think, is down to how YouTube's metrics work against smaller channels.  I am not going to pretend to have any great insight into this as I'm not a YouTuber, but it basically boils down to people with unrealistic expectations of making a living from their hobby videos following inane advice in search of monetisation.

In which explains why I have been thinking of shutting down operations of BIGHMW.com Enterprises, as all 3 of my YouTube channels, despite all the great content on them, are seriously lagging behind with each having less than 200 subscribers,  you would think that the ONLY CHANNEL named The Atari Report would've drawn dick, here it is, abandoned 18 months after its inaugural launch in July 2020. BIGHMW TV, has had only one video uploaded this year, my annual State Of Warrior Nation Address. Only the Ray Jackson channel has had content loaded constantly on it and yet only a few dozen views on each video, I THROW UP MY HANDS GUYS!!! I even tried to get Cindy Margolis to help analyze my talent only to have request fall on (conveniently) deaf ears, is it that I live in a small town like Port Townsend or what??? I always thought zip code didn't matter anymore with the internet.

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

In which explains why I have been thinking of shutting down operations of BIGHMW.com Enterprises, as all 3 of my YouTube channels, despite all the great content on them, are seriously lagging behind with each having less than 200 subscribers,  you would think that the ONLY CHANNEL named The Atari Report would've drawn dick, here it is, abandoned 18 months after its inaugural launch in July 2020. BIGHMW TV, has had only one video uploaded this year, my annual State Of Warrior Nation Address. Only the Ray Jackson channel has had content loaded constantly on it and yet only a few dozen views on each video, I THROW UP MY HANDS GUYS!!! I even tried to get Cindy Margolis to help analyze my talent only to have request fall on (conveniently) deaf ears, is it that I live in a small town like Port Townsend or what??? I always thought zip code didn't matter anymore with the internet.

• YouTube channel
• Cindy Margolis
• Port Townsend

Yup, it checks out.

[zzip]

15 hours ago, christo930 said:

I've also learned that you cannot take a YouTuber's word on ANYTHING.  If they tell you they love their mother, it's probably a lie.  Though I would think it's not as prevalent on our little niche (being too small), they give glowing reviews to games they've probably never even played.  Everyone has a price and youtube has shown just how low that price is.  They second they get like 5k subs, the shitty "reviews" are coming.

That's painting with a broad brush.   The clout-chasers are easy to spot.   It's also easy to spot when a person is acting authentically and giving an honest review. 

[christo930]

3 hours ago, zzip said:

That's painting with a broad brush.   The clout-chasers are easy to spot.   It's also easy to spot when a person is acting authentically and giving an honest review. 

In my opinion, it's warranted for most of them.  There are some channels that don't do many paid reviews.  Also, this was about youtubers in general, not just game centered channels.  They get a few thousand subs and they start getting offers to "review" for payment.

 

There are some good channels.  Saberman is one of the channels I am subscribed to and watch regularly.

[BIGHMW]

23 hours ago, MrFish said:

It looks like I posted some of the early changes for this hack too. Apparently I didn't carry it further. I don't see anything else in my project folder (for the 5200 version).

Dig Dug - Graphic Improvements

 

Thank you for the improvements @MrFish, That's coming from me.  I'll check them out later on this week and let you know what I think.

 

More folks should be just as appreciative. I know that most of us here on AA are like I am being right now, more outside of AA should be, F*** The Haters!!! Let the haters hate, I'm still with Big Sexy, and have been for 40 years, and as for those who criticize her CX52 analog controllers before they write off the 5200 altogether they should at least  check out either Redemption 5200 (available in both 2600/Sega and 7800 versions) or a RetroGameBoyz deluxe 5200 controller, and also their Masterplay clone for more digital options readily available that they make, or they can go F*** themselves!!!

 

Sure we do need more games and yes some improvements on some of the original 69 titles could be used to some point but the 5200, 40 years later, is still in my household and in my heart, so even if I don't ever get the chance to bring back The Atari Report in its full version then you can bet that "The Atari 5200 SuperReport" will still roll on regardless!!! "ColecoVision EXTRA!" will soon debut alongside it too!!!

[BIGHMW]

2 hours ago, christo930 said:

In my opinion, it's warranted for most of them.  There are some channels that don't do many paid reviews.  Also, this was about youtubers in general, not just game centered channels.  They get a few thousand subs and they start getting offers to "review" for payment.

 

There are some good channels.  Saberman is one of the channels I am subscribed to and watch regularly.

I don't take money for my reviews or any of my other content on any of my 3 channels, but yes I DID read on Quora that someway somehow YouTube and Google deliberately suppresses smaller channels like all 3 of mine in favor of the bigger, more corporate ones that cater to the advertisers Google infiltrates on their videos, even during the middle of some of those videos, in which, as a viewer, as well as a content producer, pisses me off!!!

 

Here's that Quora article that explains my case!!!

 

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-my-YouTube-channel-get-no-views

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by BIGHMW

[+MrFish]

I'd forgotten about this crosspost thread I'd started on the 5200 forum: Centipede - Namco Font

A little bit of support in there, and resulted in a ROM by @playsoft that supports the Ultimate SD.

 

[+MrFish]

3 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

Thank you for the improvements @MrFish, That's coming from me.  I'll check them out later on this week and let you know what I think.

As I said, that version (5200) just has some of the early changes I made.

 

I did quite a few things since then that you won't see.

 

1. more sprite updates (or, evolving sprite changes)

2. rock and flower edits

3. playfield and sprite color changes

4. arcade title screen

5. arcade instruction screens

6. various other tweaks

 

So, you'll need your XEGS too see those.