Atari Mr Run and Jump

[Tempest]

Watch the political stuff please. 

[zzip]

40 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Which one is correct?

The first headline was the least incorrect, assuming you take "official" to mean "official release by Atari"

 

43 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I suppose by far the most people who are not e.g. here at AtariAge will exactly understand it like that. So do most of the journalists. And that was IMO clearly the intention of Atari.

Still that's interpretation and doesn't make the statement incorrect, as @Tempest pointed out marketing blurbs have to be short and to the point.    The statement already contained a few qualifications since Atari has released other games on cart recently and even a new 2600 game (Alien Abduction) that wasn't on cart.

[+splendidnut]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

 

Atari and the "news" article writers have probably not given much thought to the wording beyond their basic intentions.  "Look, there's this thing that is happening, by this name-brand company!"

[Thomas Jentzsch]

8 minutes ago, zzip said:

The first headline was the least incorrect, assuming you take "official" to mean "official release by Atari"

Would you?

8 minutes ago, zzip said:

Still that's interpretation and doesn't make the statement incorrect,...

I don't care about what's technically correct, but what's the intention of the statement. It was written to be misunderstood and thus dismissed the entire homebrew community.

[zzip]

14 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

25 minutes ago, zzip said:

The first headline was the least incorrect, assuming you take "official" to mean "official release by Atari"

Would you?

Yes because it's the only way that headline makes sense.   The rest flat out don't make sense, they're either ill-informed at best or lies.

 

14 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I don't care about what's technically correct, but what's the intention of the statement. It was written to be misunderstood and thus dismissed the entire homebrew community.

Why would that be the intent?    Who else is the audience but the very community that's been playing and collecting Atari 2600 carts all these years?

Edited June 14, 2023 by zzip

[Nall3k]

I think there is some overthinking on this, it's just marketing. But, people are still arguing over Sega's "blast processing" campaign.

[+jeremiahjt]

1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I suppose by far the most people who are not e.g. here at AtariAge will exactly understand it like that. So do most of the journalists. And that was IMO clearly the intention of Atari.

Probably so, but so what?  Everything I saw from Atari about this release made sure to word it so as to not include homebrews.  What more do you want from them?  Do you want them in their one paragraph release to go into a long history about homebrews?  That would not make any sense.  It is not Atari's job to inform the general public about homebrews.  Ninety-nine percent of the general populace has no idea that homebrews exist.  Probably over 80% of the public who might be interested do not know about homebrews.  It is not to you get down to potential customers that maybe a majority of people know about homebrews.  It would not serve any purpose for Atari to talk about homebrews.

 

Also, considering Atari just released two 2600 homebrews on the VCS and I think two more are coming Friday, I doubt Atari is anti-homebrew.  I would bet Atari is probably more friendly to homebrews than not.  Atari is in the business of making money, and informing the public about homebrews is not going to make them money.

[tschak909]

Wow, the back-breaking apologism, is epic.

 

-Thom

[MrTrust]

48 minutes ago, jeremiahjt said:

Do you want them in their one paragraph release to go into a long history about homebrews?  That would not make any sense.  It is not Atari's job to inform the general public about homebrews.

 

Here's what you say: "Coming in Fall of 2023: An Exciting New 2600 Cartridge from Atari!"

 

There.  Now, how hard was that?  Simple.  Accurate.  To the point.  No need for self pretzel-twisting qualifiers.  Why would they not just say that?  We all know damn well why, because they wanted to create the impression that this is some big milestone event when it isn't.  The journalist misinterpretations are the reason for the statement.

 

48 minutes ago, jeremiahjt said:

It is not Atari's job to inform the general public about homebrews.  Ninety-nine percent of the general populace has no idea that homebrews exist.

 

And if it weren't for those homebrewers' work this game would not exist.  You think this dude looked at old scanned Atari internal documents and typed his ASM into Notepad?  If you're making a 2600 game today, I don't care you who are, you are almost certainly benefitting from an enormous amount of work that other people did.  That you have a high-level language available to you, or a high-quality IDE, or the ability to instantly compile and run your code, or an emulator with a good debugger that you can pause your program and step through line-by-line, or extensive documentation on the TIA and its capabilities, sample kernels, and the like is why this dude was able to make his game.

 

Yeah, people put that stuff out there for free, and they did it so it would be used.  No, just because you used someone else's tools doesn't mean they own your creation in any way, but if you rely on people's work and then not only decline to thank them, but also specifically word your release so as to exclude them, that is very rude.  That's why they're complaining and I don't blame them.

 

49 minutes ago, jeremiahjt said:

Atari is in the business of making money...

 

So are drug cartels and human trafficking rings.  That something isn't a charity doesn't mean it's suddenly beyond criticism.

[+jeremiahjt]

59 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

So are drug cartels and human trafficking rings.  That something isn't a charity doesn't mean it's suddenly beyond criticism.

What an argument! I have completely changed my opinion on this subject now that I see the similarities between modern-day Atari and the Sinaloa Cartel! 

Edited June 14, 2023 by jeremiahjt

[+Gemintronic]

Frankly, some of the comparisons made in this topic have made me think twice about starting a new 2600 project.

 

Maybe it's a "batari BASIC" looking kernel.  Maybe it's overpriced.  Doesn't stop us from enjoying eachother and our hobby.

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, Gemintronic said:

Frankly, some of the comparisons made in this topic have made me think twice about starting a new 2600 project.

 

Maybe it's a "batari BASIC" looking kernel.  Maybe it's overpriced.  Doesn't stop us from enjoying eachother and our hobby.

So then as a corollary - I could spend 30 minutes slapping something together that looks like it's from 1978 and just because it's a new game, I'd be justified for putting a $60 sticker on it?  Got it.

[+jeremiahjt]

18 hours ago, MrTrust said:

Atari just released a new 2600 game from John Van Ryzin!  Why not put that on a cartridge and make this the $5 VCS store download?

I think the reason that Atari does not want to put Alien Abduction out on cartridge is because they do not own the game.  John Van Ryzin sold Atari exclusive digital rights for a short period of time, which probably means the game will end up other places soon.  I doubt Atari would want to make a cartridge of a game that will end up on other platforms and that they will eventually lose the rights to.  I do not know for sure, but I would guess that Atari bought Mr. Run and Jump outright.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

13 minutes ago, jeremiahjt said:

I think the reason that Atari does not want to put Alien Abduction out on cartridge is because they do not own the game.  John Van Ryzin sold Atari exclusive digital rights for a short period of time, which probably means the game will end up other places soon.  I doubt Atari would want to make a cartridge of a game that will end up on other platforms and that they will eventually lose the rights to.  I do not know for sure, but I would guess that Atari bought Mr. Run and Jump outright.

Good to know that Atari has learned something. When they approached me regarding Thrust in 2005, they demanded the exclusive and unlimited rights. Of course that was unacceptable for me.

[+Gemintronic]

49 minutes ago, Stephen said:

So then as a corollary - I could spend 30 minutes slapping something together that looks like it's from 1978 and just because it's a new game, I'd be justified for putting a $60 sticker on it?  Got it.

 

Not quite.  You could slap something together in assembly or batari BASIC.  But, batari BASIC gets the blame for some.  Tired of the assumptions.

 

The general negativity of this topic is also a bummer.

[Tempest]

10 minutes ago, Gemintronic said:

The general negativity of this topic is also a bummer.

I'll admit I'm kind of surprised by some of the posts here myself.  I never would have thought this announcement would cause so much trouble. 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

13 minutes ago, Gemintronic said:

Not quite.  You could slap something together in assembly or batari BASIC.  But, batari BASIC gets the blame for some.  Tired of the assumptions.

Since I as the first who mentioned bBasic: I didn't want to blame bBasic at all.

 

I only used it, because it saves heaps of time compared to Assembler coding.

[MrTrust]

2 hours ago, jeremiahjt said:

What an argument! I have completely changed my opinion on this subject now that I see the similarities between modern-day Atari and the Sinaloa Cartel! 

 

Do you really want me to believe that you don't understand the difference between analogy and equivalence?

 

1 minute ago, Tempest said:

I'll admit I'm kind of surprised by some of the posts here myself.  I never would have thought this announcement would cause so much trouble.

 

Let's look at a comparable game available here on AA for half the price:

   

 

Neat stuff.  We have maze-like levels, environmental hazards, a boss, multiple exits, maybe a power-up or something, lives/hit points.  Lot going on there.  I haven't played it in a bit, but I believe there's no flicker on this.  Now, let's look at Mr. Run & Jump:

  

 

Cruder graphics and environments, more simplistic level design, less variety, bog standard typeface for the score.  It just doesn't look as polished as a $30 game from a webstore that, I'm going out on a limb here, but am going to guess does not have a market cap of 66 million dollars.  That doesn't mean that the latter game is bad, but it does mean that the asking price is on the high side, and when you combine that with the circus barker-ish way they hyped it while mildly snubbing the people who created the circumstances by which this even becomes a viable product in the first place, that's not making me want to run out and order this.

 

45 minutes ago, Gemintronic said:

Not quite.  You could slap something together in assembly or batari BASIC.  But, batari BASIC gets the blame for some.  Tired of the assumptions.

 

The general negativity of this topic is also a bummer.

 

Nobody's "blaming" bB for anything here.  I said explicitly at length that there's nothing wrong with bB, but it does have limitations and can't do what the top-shelf programmers are able to do on the 2600 these days.  It just can't.  Doesn't mean it's not a great tool or that you can't make fun games with it. 

 

Re: the negativity.  I haven't heard a single person defend the game on its merits, or propose any reason why we should be excited to play or purchase this, or what about the game that anyone's seeing that looks so good to them.  Jeremiah apparently didn't even look at before stepping in to defend the game, because apparently it doesn't matter what it is as long as it makes Atari money.  You can say whatever you want about the negative side; we're at least citing reasons why we feel the way we do.  The only apparent counter so far as I can tell is "You're being negative.  Stop being so negative."

 

What does that say about the game?

[4ever2600]

36 minutes ago, Tempest said:

I'll admit I'm kind of surprised by some of the posts here myself.  I never would have thought this announcement would cause so much trouble. 

I also agree with Tempest and Gemintronic. 

 

Can we all just calm down?

 

News outlets being news outlets and all the lawyers come out.

 

Atari is actually making an attempt to bring new content to the 2600 and newer systems. 

 

Can we just support and enjoy it for what it is?

[insertclevernamehere]

19 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

 

 

 

 

Let's look at a comparable game available here on AA for half the price:

 

That's not entirely fair.  You're comparing the boxless price of the AA store game with the boxed price of the Atari.com one.  Both boxed, there is only a $15 difference.  I say "only" but it is still a significant difference, especially when the AA store game (Ninjish Guy...) is still the cheaper and seemingly superior game.

 

I would still be interested if it wasn't for 2 things I didn't like in the video.  There was no sound whatsoever.  Now that maybe just the video or my iPad's fault but I want to hear what sounds the game makes before I'd make a purchase decision.

 

Secondly, the game had the WORST flicker I've ever seen on an Atari 2600 game.  BIG fail.

 

Hopefully Atari will give ZPH a copy to play before the preorder date.  That would help make up my mind once and for all.

Edited June 14, 2023 by insertclevernamehere

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, MrTrust said:

What does that say about the game?

Speaking purely as a potential customer: if this game was a $5 ROM download, I'd probably grab a copy just to check it out.  First 2600 release in a while from a company calling itself Atari?  Sure, why not.  I may not particularly care for (or like) them, but at that price point I'll toss it in the pile and play it once in a while.

 

At $10 its value and my interest decline rapidly the more the price goes up.

 

But it is not a $60 game.  That's me speaking as a potential customer based on what I have seen of the game so far, and, in this day and age, I have far more extensive media to make that decision from than I did 30-40 years ago.  There's also a much broader software library out there that's been developed over those decades to compare against, and, as a result, at that price point I just don't see the value.  Other stuff is out there that's more attractive at that number.

 

What I suspect is that Atari is trying to figure out cartridge pricing.  They had the 50th Anniversary set going out at $100 apiece, which, for a 'limited' run, I can kinda see.  But in all likelihood they probably looked at what Audacity charged for Circus Convoy (both editions) and picked a number in the middle.  Software here may even have factored into that.  Regardless, this seems like a probe of the market to see what the responses are to the pricing, but also to the release itself.  Again, only speculation on my behalf, but this strikes me as almost being a market test with other titles potentially in the pipeline.

 

Again, I'm saying this from the perspective of being a potential customer.  Acknowledgements of community-derived tools notwithstanding, the game could have been written in scrimshaw for all I care. As long as it's fun and provides value for money that's all that matters to me.

[tschak909]

A few of us have dealt with the company that calls itself Atari.

 

They do not treat those who create things for them, very well, at all.

 

And some of us have also worked with PR departments and firms, and thus can see, and point out, when a company plays fast and loose with advertising and PR copy. It particularly makes my eye twitch.

 

-Thom

[carlsson]

Didn't Atari release physical cartridges already last year, the ones that were assembled upside down but thankfully didn't fry real 2600 consoles? Or did those releases not count for whichever reason?

[+ZeroPage Homebrew]

27 minutes ago, insertclevernamehere said:

Hopefully Atari will give ZPH a copy to play before the preorder date.  That would help make up my mind once and for all.

 

I reached out to the developer to play his game on ZPH, no response yet.

 

- James

[+Stephen]

51 minutes ago, 4ever2600 said:

Can we just support and enjoy it for what it is?

People are free to do whatever they want with their own money.  But for some of us, $60 is not throw away money and we get tired of these obvious cash grabs.  Similar stuff is seen in the Jag community.  People seem so starved for any piece of plastic they will fork over money for literally anything, and be grateful for it.

 

My problem isn't exactly with the game as I haven't played it.  But there's no way in hell this thing is worth $60 and that is our contention.