Block'Em Sock'Em 7800

[+swlovinist]

We want this game to be the best it can be for the 7800.   Any input is most appreciated.  

[JagChris]

13 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

We're looking for some feedback. I am tagging @swlovinist here.

 

Here's an update for Block'Em Sock'Em. This version defaults to TIA sound. The regular versions will default to Yamaha if present. I altered this to be easier for sampling the TIA sound. The Yamaha sound is still present in this file, for devices that support it, and it can be selected from the options menu.

 

However this release is all about the TIA sound. This will allow compatibility with the Atari VCS and 2600+ from day one.

 

I have gutted the original TIA music and took my first stab at TIA Tracker music.  I would like to know how you feel these tunes fit the game play. Would you be able to listen to this music? Would you enjoy it?  Keep in mind that the TIA cannot replicate the Yamaha music. There are only two channels, so short notes allow for the bass, drums, and sound effects to have a "turn" at one of the channels.

 

There are a few TIA tunes:

1. Intro / Title
2. Odd Levels, in-game
3. Even Levels, in-game
4. Clear Level
5. Game Over

 

Since some do not prefer any music, and TIA can get tiring in some cases, there are two options to disable the background music:

1. Select "NO MUSIC" under the options screen. This silences music throughout the game.
2. The background music can be toggled, DURING GAMEPLAY, by pressing the SELECT button. This leaves the attract mode intact, and it can provide a temporary break.

 

Thanks to anyone who can offer some feedback.

 

--Darryl

 

 

 

BlockemSockem_DEMO_TIA_11-13-2023.a78 144.13 kB · 11 downloads

Darryl you've done a fantastic job. You have got the catching, throwing animations in there. Other versions are lacking some or all of these animations.. You have the John Hancock head rocking animation in there along with the sneaker squeaks. I've seen him walk across a convention hall and he looks and sounds just like that. 

 

  For me this is the definitive version and the one I'm personally holding out for on cart hopefully someday. 😁

[Trebor]

This puzzle game is a work of art visually.  The animations are fantastic and the controls are easy, responsive, and handle smoothly.  

 

I would move INSTRUCTIONS away from the OPTIONS menu and just make it as one of the selections from the Main/Title Screen so the selections are:

 

NORMAL START

OPTIONS

INSTRUCTIONS

 

Taking it a step further, considering it is only one screen of instructions, it may be worth considering just showing the instructions anyhow at the start of every new game, considering there is at least one very important and essential gameplay aspect that may not be easily figured out:

 

I know my first game, I did not read the instructions, got stuck, and honestly thought to myself, it should not be this difficult to figure out what to do next this early on in the game.   I had no clue about the above option.

 

TIA has been handled well, and I like that it is different than much of what is heard from other games out there.  I love having the option to turn the background music out via Select button - that was a great idea.  Sound effects only, may indeed be the route some go with this title, if TIA is the only sound available.  My humble two cents here is we have basic (TIA) and advance/exotic (YM) audio developed, but missing what I consider an intended standard (POKEY or POKEY+TIA), as put into place in the original retail games Ballblazer and Commando.

 

Scoring is fair, and the goal to leave as few blocks as possible before a level is considered cleared is a great way to instill further replay value (and thinking) in the title.

 

Puzzles may not be my first go to genre of games, but this is done very well, and definitely unique in its gameplay respecting any other title on the platform.  Looking forward to purchasing it when the full version becomes available.

[+swlovinist]

2 hours ago, Trebor said:

This puzzle game is a work of art visually.  The animations are fantastic and the controls are easy, responsive, and handle smoothly.  

 

I would move INSTRUCTIONS away from the OPTIONS menu and just make it as one of the selections from the Main/Title Screen so the selections are:

 

NORMAL START

OPTIONS

INSTRUCTIONS

 

Taking it a step further, considering it is only one screen of instructions, it may be worth considering just showing the instructions anyhow at the start of every new game, considering there is at least one very important and essential gameplay aspect that may not be easily figured out:

 

I know my first game, I did not read the instructions, got stuck, and honestly thought to myself, it should not be this difficulty to figure out what to do next this early on in the game.   I had no clue about the above option.

 

TIA has been handled well, and I like that it is different than much of what is heard from other games out there.  I love having the option to turn the background music out via Select button - that was a great idea.  Sound effects only, may indeed be the route some go with this title, if TIA is the only sound available.  My humble two cents here is we have basic (TIA) and advance/exotic (YM) audio developed, but missing what I consider an intended standard (POKEY or POKEY+TIA), as put into place in the original retail games Ballblazer and Commando.

 

Scoring is fair, and the goal to leave as few blocks as possible before a level is considered cleared is a great way to instill further replay value (and thinking) in the title.

 

Puzzles may not be my first go to genre of games, but this was is done very well, and definitely unique in its gameplay respecting any other title on the platform.  Looking forward to purchasing it when the full versions becomes available.

Thank you for your feedback.   The sound route is a difficult one indeed with so many options to consider these days.   Lots of factors moving forward why pokey option is not a priority ATM.   Cost is a major factor, as well as availability of pcbs that support them when considering a physical release.   The plan is to eventually offer this in both physical and digital.   With the GD and Dragonfly offering YM sound support as well, I feel that this currently is the best option as the above demo can support TIA and YM at no additional cost.   Playing this game on a stock 7800 at a fair price is a focus for me moving forward.   

[Eagle]

SN² Cart has Pokey, YM2151 and YM2612. It will be a flash cart easy to program on your own and open source.

I believe that BOM will be around 25$, which will be good enough for small batches.

I'm also thinking about LITE version in the future,

BTW after small changes the game can also run on Atari XL/XE with MariaEci.

 

Below example of EightySix demo running on A8  

 

 

 

[+swlovinist]

2 hours ago, Eagle said:

SN² Cart has Pokey, YM2151 and YM2612. It will be a flash cart easy to program on your own and open source.

I believe that BOM will be around 25$, which will be good enough for small batches.

I'm also thinking about LITE version in the future,

BTW after small changes the game can also run on Atari XL/XE with MariaEci.

 

Below example of EightySix demo running on A8  

 

 

 

Thanks for that option.   Since this is a project that Darryl1970 and I are splitting 50/50, that appears to still be too expensive for what I want to offer a game for when considering that I have other raw materials to factor in.   Pcbs without the extras are half the cost of that but good to know there is another option.   If anything, possibly a DIY for those that want to purchase a digital option and put on their own cart.   All decisions will be done jointly with Darryl1970 and I.   

[+davidcalgary29]

4 hours ago, Eagle said:

S

BTW after small changes the game can also run on Atari XL/XE with MariaEci.

 

Below example of EightySix demo running on A8  

 

 

 

More about this, please.

[+darryl1970]

16 hours ago, JagChris said:

Darryl you've done a fantastic job. You have got the catching, throwing animations in there. Other versions are lacking some or all of these animations.. You have the John Hancock head rocking animation in there along with the sneaker squeaks. I've seen him walk across a convention hall and he looks and sounds just like that. 

 

  For me this is the definitive version and the one I'm personally holding out for on cart hopefully someday. 😁

Thank you. I spent many hours following him around PRGE, recording his footsteps for later analysis. I am glad it paid off. 🤣

10 hours ago, Trebor said:

This puzzle game is a work of art visually.  The animations are fantastic and the controls are easy, responsive, and handle smoothly.  

 

I would move INSTRUCTIONS away from the OPTIONS menu and just make it as one of the selections from the Main/Title Screen so the selections are:

 

NORMAL START

OPTIONS

INSTRUCTIONS

DUH! That is a great idea.

10 hours ago, Trebor said:

Taking it a step further, considering it is only one screen of instructions, it may be worth considering just showing the instructions anyhow at the start of every new game, considering there is at least one very important and essential gameplay aspect that may not be easily figured out:

 

I know my first game, I did not read the instructions, got stuck, and honestly thought to myself, it should not be this difficulty to figure out what to do next this early on in the game.   I had no clue about the above option.

I considered instructions before the game. The Genesis version does this. I still blew right by the instructions, and I was still confused and stuck. I don't care for them there, because I no longer need them. Once I got it, they were a nuisance.

 

I really like the idea of placing them in the title screen menu. That also gives me some other ideas too. Thank you!

10 hours ago, Trebor said:

TIA has been handled well, and I like that it is different than much of what is heard from other games out there.  I love having the option to turn the background music out via Select button - that was a great idea.  Sound effects only, may indeed be the route some go with this title, if TIA is the only sound available.  My humble two cents here is we have basic (TIA) and advance/exotic (YM) audio developed, but missing what I consider an intended standard (POKEY or POKEY+TIA), as put into place in the original retail games Ballblazer and Commando.

Thanks. I am glad the TIA is OK. It was my first time composing for the tracker. It's nice to be able to use the TIA and simulate more than 2 channels, with only two channels.

 

There are a couple other concerns with adding POKEY at this point. I think Yamaha covers the high quality. While I'd LOVE to see a cart with Yamaha sound, I don't see that any time soon. Maybe a Yamaha module, like Fred alluded to? That would work for a TIA cart. It would get really messy with 3 sound engines and the logic of when to choose which one. TIA sound works on the VCS and 2600+ right now.

10 hours ago, Trebor said:

Scoring is fair, and the goal to leave as few blocks as possible before a level is considered cleared is a great way to instill further replay value (and thinking) in the title.

Thanks. I always felt like I wanted to be able to knock out some extra blocks. John was great to work with, and he liked the scoring updates. Also, the incremental scoring adds strategy. If two green blocks are on the same horizontal plain, they are worth 15pts each. If the block is traveling horizontally, the first is 15, second is 30, 45, 60, 65, 75. The AtariVox says, "Max combo" when that value gets reached. It's kind of hard tom understand though. LOL.

10 hours ago, Trebor said:

Puzzles may not be my first go to genre of games, but this was is done very well, and definitely unique in its gameplay respecting any other title on the platform.  Looking forward to purchasing it when the full versions becomes available.

Thanks. I am glad you like the game. Thanks for all of the feedback. It helps a lot.

[351cougar]

you could have MORE instructions / hints come up, level specific, while in PAUSE. 

include the game options from all existing system versions as well as the ability to mix and match options into a custom set

[+darryl1970]

On 11/14/2023 at 7:15 PM, 351cougar said:

you could have MORE instructions / hints come up, level specific, while in PAUSE. 

include the game options from all existing system versions as well as the ability to mix and match options into a custom set

I might add more instructions. I have some ideas. Adding it during pause would be a major overhaul, but it would be cool. It would just be too much. The game is pretty much done now. I do not want to make any major changes and introduce bugs into gameplay. Although I did squash a couple minor bugs that will not be present in the next release.

 

The bug is fun. Throw a block and the press down and the second button. Start the game again, and the block will be where it was in the last game. Kind of fun to play with.

 

I also fixed a quirky thing that John does when he's running off of the screen. Sometimes, pressing the button will cause the block to be off center. I fixed that. He also can no longer run into the left and right bounds.

 

These will be in the next release.

[+darryl1970]

Updated version, with instructions, on first page thread!

 

 

[+darryl1970]

This fixes the horizontal ratio of the pipes, so that they better match the vertical pipes.

 

I've gone back and forth on the pipe dithering. My concern is that it showcases the lower resolution, but it adds a little more transition between shades.

The SNES and Jaguar use a smoother shading.

 

Do you prefer dithered or smooth? (I'll keep the ratio fix either way.)

 

    I also made the background true black.

      

 

     Darker looks nice in emulation, but it doesn't translate on-screen as well. I can keep playing with that.

 

 

GENESIS:                                                                                                                        SNES:
          

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[Trebor]

8 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

This fixes the horizontal ratio of the pipes, so that they better match the vertical pipes.

 

I've gone back and forth on the pipe dithering. My concern is that it showcases the lower resolution, but it adds a little more transition between shades.

The SNES and Jaguar use a smoother shading.

 

Do you prefer dithered or smooth? (I'll keep the ratio fix either way.)

 

 I also made the background true black.

Darker looks nice in emulation, but it doesn't translate on-screen as well. I can keep playing with that.                                                                                               
 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Dithered looks better under a CRT than smooth. 

However, under modern displays smooth will appear nicer than dithered. 

 

My choice will be to favor the best appearance under a CRT (dithered); however, in all honesty, smooth works better under modern displays with no video filtering, and although not as nice as dithered, still appears okay under a CRT.

 

For the background, is it possible to change up, so it always matches the wall color inside the level's room? 

 

For example:

 

 

 

 

 

[+darryl1970]

13 hours ago, Trebor said:

Dithered looks better under a CRT than smooth. 

However, under modern displays smooth will appear nicer than dithered. 

 

My choice will be to favor the best appearance under a CRT (dithered); however, in all honesty, smooth works better under modern displays with no video filtering, and although not as nice as dithered, still appears okay under a CRT.

 

For the background, is it possible to change up, so it always matches the wall color inside the level's room? 

 

For example:

 

Thanks for the feedback. I've actually done some of the BG change ideas before. (Keep in mind the black of the pipes is the BG, so that has to be darker than the pipe BG.) I'll send you some ideas in private, to not muddy the thread up. I have often found dark BG changes to look muddy on the 7800 with CR, although they look great in emulation. We can try a few,

 

 

 

[351cougar]

since there is a distinct visual difference and that makes it a personal preference, could it be user option? 

[+darryl1970]

10 hours ago, 351cougar said:

since there is a distinct visual difference and that makes it a personal preference, could it be user option? 

Unfortunately, there isn't enough space for the duplicate tileset. Good idea though!

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Although @Trebor is right in regards to dithered for CRT and smooth for modern displays, I actually like the look of the dithered a bit more as to me I can more tell they are supposed to be pipes with some sort of shading to show the roundness of them. Smooth to me, seems to have less detail to convey that. So I personally think you stick with dithered on the pipe shading.

 

What sells the shading better on the SNES version is the back shadow behind the pipes that creates an additional layer of depth to them. That shadow is missing on the Genesis and 7800 version so it the dithered look I think is best here.

 

[+darryl1970]

3 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Although @Trebor is right in regards to dithered for CRT and smooth for modern displays, I actually like the look of the dithered a bit more as to me I can more tell they are supposed to be pipes with some sort of shading to show the roundness of them. Smooth to me, seems to have less detail to convey that. So I personally think you stick with dithered on the pipe shading.

 

What sells the shading better on the SNES version is the back shadow behind the pipes that creates an additional layer of depth to them. That shadow is missing on the Genesis and 7800 version so it the dithered look I think is best here.

 

Thanks for the feedback. Since the previous post, @Trebor and I went back and forth with some alternate smooth versions. I was about to go back to dithered myself, and then I swapped the dark background color with the dark shade, instead of the middle shade.

 

The brighter pipe background seemed to overdrive the display, to where I couldn't get the darkest pipe color to show up on RF. Once I swapped the pipe bg color, I thought the smooth pipes started to look more defined, even with RF.

 

I agree that the dithered forces the idea that they are round.

 

Check this updated version out on your displays and see what you think. Please let me know. Maybe I can figure out a way to dither it better than before, but I was kind of heading down this path:

 

BlockemSockem_11-21-23_DEMO.a78

[+darryl1970]

For contrast, I think I have a fair dithered comparison.

 

I darkened the background to this, and I made the black lines solid. I am kind of torn now.

 

In this version, it is possible press up and the alt button to advance to the next level. I disabled high score devices, so it doesn't corrupt actual scores.

 

BlockemDitherr_DEMO_DEBUG.a78

[+darryl1970]

Refined Dither:                                                                                                  Refined Smooth

  

[Trebor]

Refined Dither gets my vote.

[+darryl1970]

7 hours ago, Trebor said:

Refined Dither gets my vote.

Thanks. I think I like it too. Thanks to @-^CrossBow^- for challenging me to go back to it.

 

User selection, like @351cougar mentioned, would be nice. If I add extra tiles into a different bank, I might have enough RAM to load them into; but I think that could cause a lot of issues with the game. Probably not worth tearing the game apart at this point. I like that the dithered looks more intentional in the design.

 

Thanks again for all of the input, including the likes on @Trebor's response. Helped a lot!

 

[+darryl1970]

I consider this a rather major update. I think these refinements are close, if not, to the final:

1. The Demo levels have now been tacked on as the last 4 levels of the full game. This makes the game 29 levels long, but also means that mastering the demo levels will come into good use! (It is possible to clear ALL blocks in MOST of the levels, but not all.)
2. Added "Show Pts" option in the options menu. The game has features that can clash with some 7800GD functionality. For example, the AtariVox does not speak unless the Break Menu is disabled on the 7800GD. There can also be slowdown on long runs with the 7800GD. I think turning off the Break Menu of the 7800 fixes the slowdown. I also found that disabling the points indicator at the top of the screen eliminates the slowdown. So, for those who do not have AtariVox sound and wish to eliminate the slowdown, while keeping their Break Menu, turning off the points indicator is a fix. I still did have an issue with the break menu, using AtariVox and Seagull Genesis adapter. The buttons didn't appear to work right. I imagine disabling break would fix that too. That is a good option, since the break menu doesn't work with that combination anyway. In short, the "Show Pts - Off" setting will help 7800GD slowdown in many cases, without sacrificing the Break Menu. This option saves on the high score device, so it doesn't need set every time. "Clear All Scores" resets this option with the scoreboards.
3. Instructions updated for the above issue and tweaked elsewhere.
4. This is the first official release with the, refined, dithered pipes.
5. Updated John's sprite. I wasn't quite happy with John's sprite. I think this looks a little better.
6. Eliminated some incorrect animations for John. For example, the box would move with the joystick at the beginning of the round, but John is still.
7. Updated menu sound effects
8. Cleaned up transition to high score display.
9. Game end verbiage updated to match the number of levels played.

 

  

 

BlockemSockem_11-29-2023_DEMO.a78

[TrekMD]

I'm liking this version, so far.

[Trebor]

The Jaguar port is now available to purchase in the AtariAge Store!

https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1316

 

Looking forward to the 7800 physical release down the road!