The Atari 2600+ is live for preorders!

[donjn]

5 minutes ago, desiv said:

No, I can't see that.

There are people who do this for a hobby and they don't understand that there are people who are also doing this for a business? 

Really?

 

I agree both can be true. In fact, one can argue if you can do both at the same time, you are blessed.

I am sorry however if a homebrewer feels they got the short end of the stick. There are obviously details we may never know.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

9 minutes ago, desiv said:

No, I can't see that.

There are people who do this for a hobby and they don't understand that there are people who are also doing this for a business? 

Really?

I do understand that too well. That's why I am not happy with the latest change.

[Albert]

25 minutes ago, hizzy said:

Bit by bit, you can kind of see what was going on here behind the scenes. I read Andrew Davie's statement on Zero Page. "Atari Age wasn't a hobby for Albert. It was his business... It "clicked" for me when I was negotiating royalties for one of my games, and I could not get Albert to indicate to me what his take home profit was in making a cartridge... That Albert was not doing this as a hobby - but in fact he was running a business. I have felt that as a homebrewer I got the short end of the stick as far as the distribution of everything. Money, credit, control... You name it"

This isn't a fair statement, for the initial release of Boulder Dash, I made the least amount of money of all the parties involved, Thomas, Andrew, and First Star Software, which I clearly stated to Andrew and Thomas in the past.  We negotiated a new contract for Boulder Dash with BBG more recently, with a lower price, and I'm still not making much on this newer version of Boulder Dash. 

 

Yes, AtariAge has been a business for a while, I needed to setup as a business for various reasons, but one of them was not to extort homebrew authors for as much money as possible.  Prices for homebrew games haven't gone up significantly over the years, but my costs certainly have as everything has gotten more expensive.  I have put an enormous amount of time into running AtariAge, well over 40 hours a week, and I'd be lucky to be making even minimum wage based on AtariAge profits, much of which go into the monetary costs of hosting and running the site and putting money into new homebrew games.  

 

And just because AtariAge is a business doesn't mean that I didn't still consider it a hobby, but I certainly wasn't going to lose money on running the site and the store given the amount of time and energy I put into it.

 

As for credit, I'm not sure what Andrew wants there, homebrew authors are clearly credited for their work, in the store, in the printed materials (always in the manual and nearly always on the box, sometimes on labels), and often when I am promoting games on social media, where I also link to the most relevant thread on AtariAge (usually the development thread started by the author).  And ZeroPage Homebrew does a fantastic job of putting a spotlight on developers.  I've never tried to take credit for the work that goes into developing these games.  Yes, they are published by AtariAge and the AtariAge logo is on the printed materials.  I'm also putting all the money up front to have printed materials designed and printed, as well as all the costs for everything that goes into making cartridges, and I don't ask authors to contribute a penny up front for any of that.  And control?  Again, I'm not sure what he wants here, the authors can have as much input as they want when we're working on the packaging for games.  And I cannot prevent people from selling used copies of games on eBay at a much higher price than they were originally sold for on AtariAge, which I know Andrew isn't terribly pleased with. 

 

 ..Al

[Thomas Jentzsch]

6 minutes ago, Albert said:

...which I clearly stated to Andrew and Thomas in the past.  

For the record: I do not complain here.

[+jgkspsx]

6 hours ago, john_q_atari said:

Pitfall II currently available for around $27 after shipping in the US

Normal people aren’t going to pay $30 for a loose Atari 2600 cartridge, though.

[desiv]

3 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

Normal people

<Looks around at the people here>

... and your point?

 

🙂 🙂

(Sorry...)   

Edited September 20, 2023 by desiv

[donjn]

12 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

Normal people aren’t going to pay $30 for a loose Atari 2600 cartridge, though.

Exactly which is why I don't get this business model for the 2600+

I want some 7800 games, Let's make a modest list of their prices on Ebay for an old cartridge without a box and manual:

 

Asteroids    12
Dark Chambers    25
MS Pac Man    15
Galaga    15
Centipede    16
Pole Position II    6

This is $90 just like that.

 

Now the missing 2600 games I want:

 

HERO    50
Adventure    15
Missle Command    5
Pitfall    13
Super Breakout    5
Phoenix    6
Megamania    9
Dark Cavern    4

 

Another $107 for old and dirty games, some have torn labels etc. Some might not work very long or only work some of the time.
Add this to the $129 spent on the Atari 2600+
 

$350 total for this setup. If Im gonna spend $350 I am going to want an FPGA solution.

This system is not for casual fans at all; it is for hardcore.

 

But you would think if you’re gonna make something for the hardcore it would be FPGA based and not a rom dumper. A rom dumper without an SD card slot or can use something like Harmony Cart.
It's like they want the best of both worlds, but are hitting neither mark.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by donjn

[Dr Karnov]

After a shopping trip, I've now got a PAL and an NTSC cart of Food Fight 7800 and Warlords 2600, so when the 2600+ comes out I'll do a comparison and let y'all know the results

[desiv]

3 minutes ago, donjn said:

I want some 7800 games, Let's make a modest list of their prices on Ebay for an old cartridge without a box and manual:

If you are saying there won't be a market because games on Ebay are expensive, then I would think someone might counter with...

Games on Ebay are expensive because there is a market...

[Dr Karnov]

I'm looking at this a bit differently.

 

There are many many ways to play Atari games with ROMS or compilations.

 

There are very few ways to play games on cart, especially 7800 games.

 

If not the 2600+, you'd have to get a working 7800 and then either get it modded and get an OSSC to run on a modern TV, or buy a CRT.

 

Either of those options would cost more than $129

[donjn]

Just now, desiv said:

If you are saying there won't be a market because games on Ebay are expensive, then I would think someone might counter with...

Games on Ebay are expensive because there is a market...

That argument ONLY works if you can ONLY play cartridge games on a 2600+. But you can play them on an old Atari, and a Retron 77, so the market for games does not equal the market for the 2600+
Also, there is a difference between market and scarcity. These are old games and they are not being made anymore, some have low values, and others much higher. Hero has a high value, most likely because it’s a great game and fewer people sell, creating scarcity. There are also a ton of $5 games as well that you can get easily. It still does not diminish the fact that these are really old cartridges you are sticking into a brand-new unit, a topic I mentioned earlier regarding if old cartridges cause corrosion on the 2600+, but that's another topic.

 

[donjn]

1 minute ago, Dr Karnov said:

I'm looking at this a bit differently.

 

There are many many ways to play Atari games with ROMS or compilations.

 

There are very few ways to play games on cart, especially 7800 games.

 

If not the 2600+, you'd have to get a working 7800 and then either get it modded and get an OSSC to run on a modern TV, or buy a CRT.

 

Either of those options would cost more than $129

But if we agree this 2600+ is aimed at the hardcore, don't most of us have a CRT with a 2600 already? Weve already invested in that.
And perhaps there are a lot of us who own a Harmony Cart because we don't want to purchase all these cartridges again.

 

[desiv]

1 minute ago, donjn said:

That argument ONLY works if you can ONLY play cartridge games on a 2600+. But you can play them on an old Atari, and a Retron 77, so the market for games does not equal the market for the 2600+

That's not true at all tho.

An old Atari requires RF or composite, not HDM (unless modded).

A Retrom 77 is not an Atari 2600+. 

There can be customers who want one of the other (or both)...

There could even be customers who want all three.  Especially around here...

 

[desiv]

1 minute ago, donjn said:

But if we agree this 2600+ is aimed at the hardcore, 

 

I don't remember anyone agreeing to that??

[donjn]

Just now, desiv said:

I don't remember anyone agreeing to that??

So you think a new user is going to buy this then go buy a large library of dusty old overpriced cartridges on Ebay?

[JPF997]

1 minute ago, desiv said:

I don't remember anyone agreeing to that??

It obviously is, or what do you think the kid next door playing Fortnite is gonna be interested in buying this machine?

[Video]

Don't get me wrong. Pitfall 2 not working isn't a deal breaker for me, its just a well known problem game that's common. Koolaid man is another problem game (doesn't work on many iterations of real hardware) but most don't like that, and unlike pitfall 2 is somewhat uncommon.

 

Mostly I'm getting the console to play all the great "forbidden" games out there. You know, atari made tons of stuff that will never appear on collections due to not owning the ip. Stuff like Mario bros, dig dug, various pacman games, things like that. Atari isn't the only one, Activision has games like ghost busters, rampage, and double dragon you'll never see in collections. There's more, but these are ones I own so mentioned them. Unplayable on modern means is why I want a 2600+ yes I'd be disappointed in s great common like pitfall2 not working, but there's so much more out there too.

 

Hey Albert, what types of switches does the plus use? I ask mostly because the b/w switch which was a switch on 2600, but a button on 7800. As a button it may not work in 2600 mode, but few games used it meaningfully (mostly to alter game colors, but sometimes other stuff) while 7800 used it for pause, and most (all?) 7800 titles used that.

 

Also test if not already, marble craze (love that game) and skeleton please!

[donjn]

5 minutes ago, desiv said:

That's not true at all tho.

An old Atari requires RF or composite, not HDM (unless modded).

A Retrom 77 is not an Atari 2600+. 

There can be customers who want one of the other (or both)...

There could even be customers who want all three.  Especially around here...

 

I misread, my bad.

Edited September 20, 2023 by donjn

[desiv]

Just now, donjn said:

So you think a new user is going to buy this then go buy a large library of dusty old overpriced cartridges on Ebay?

There aren't two types of users.

Hardcore users with lots of old carts and systems and CRTs, and new users with nothing...

There is a LOT of possibility in between...

 

 

[desiv]

Just now, JPF997 said:

It obviously is, or what do you think the kid next door playing Fortnite is gonna be interested in buying this machine?

So your definition of hardcore is anyone who isn't a kid next door playing Fortnite?

[donjn]

1 minute ago, desiv said:

So your definition of hardcore is anyone who isn't a kid next door playing Fortnite?

I don't think he meant you to take him that literally, its an example.

[JPF997]

2 minutes ago, desiv said:

So your definition of hardcore is anyone who isn't a kid next door playing Fortnite?

I don't know you tell me what you think the word hardcore means, because there's no doubt in my mind that the 2600+ is a system for hardcore gamer's.

[donjn]

3 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

I don't know you tell me what you think the word hardcore means, because there's no doubt in my mind that the 2600+ is a system for hardcore gamer's.

Exactly, and besides that, it's a rom dumper (without the ability to add more roms!) which I am shocked so many people here are okay with.
It's like its a non-hardcore system for hardcore Atari fans.
There is a bit of an echo chamber here, as much as I would hate to admit.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by donjn

[desiv]

5 minutes ago, donjn said:

I don't think he meant you to take him that literally, its an example.

Yes, but I think my point should be pretty obvious... 

 

People (not all, just the ones disagreeing with me on this point) seem to think that the only possible market for the Atari+ is "hardcore gamers."   By that I am assuming you mean hardcore Atari fans.

 

But what about someone who has some carts in their closet and is thinking it might be fun to use them on their HDMI set?

What about someone who doesn't have any carts, but sees this and thinks "man, I used to love plugging a cart into my old 2600, this could be fun..."

 

I think there are a LOT of people who might be interested in this who aren't hardcore...

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by desiv

[donjn]

3 minutes ago, desiv said:

Yes, but I think my point should be pretty obvious... 

 

People seem to think that the only possible market for the Atari+ is "hardcore gamers."   By that I am assuming you mean hardcore Atari fans.

 

But what about someone who has some carts in their closet and is thinking it might be fun to use them on their HDMI set?

What about someone who doesn't have any carts, but sees this and thinks "man, I used to love plugging a cart into my old 2600, this could be fun..."

 

I think there are a LOT of people who might be interested in this who aren't hardcore...

 

But wouldn’t those people have seen the Retron 77 by now? Wouldn't they have seen the Atari collections or the Flashbacks by now? Remember, they are not hardcore Atari fans so the "clicking" and fun part of putting in cartridges does not mess with their endorphins the way it does...us..

Okay so let's say that's true, they have 4 or 5 games laying around. So they purchase the system for $130. What happens when they want more games?

Are they really going to be happy spending $130 to play 5 Atari games they can easily emulate?

 

Now they have to go through the rabbit hole of Ebay. Im sticking dusty old corrosion-filled games into this brand-new system. Its weird.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by donjn