The new Atari 2600+ w/HDMI out and 2600/7800 support

[+x=usr(1536)]

3 hours ago, M-S said:

This product is only available for shipping in the United States.

This may come down to ITAR (or other) regulations.  Note that it's been a really, really long time since I've had even the tiniest bit of involvement with ITAR compliance, so what I write may not be 100% accurate in today's world.

 

Speculation: Atari is having the devices built in a foreign country - likely China - and shipped to the US for distribution.  Once they land in America, they're subject to American export regulations.

 

Because of this, it's possible that Atari needs to file for an ITAR (or other) exemption in order to be able to legally ship them outside of the US.  If they haven't done this, the units can't be directly sold to customers outside of the country.

 

Like I say, it's speculation - but it could potentially explain why they're only selling units in the US.

[leech]

1 hour ago, 82-T/A said:

Just bought it, and clicked ADD to everything that showed up on the left except the clothes. I got the extra controller, and the paddle controller bundle too. I ordered it so fast that I almost had it shipped to the wrong house, I couldn't jam in my credit card numbers fast enough. Really looking forward to it!!!

Haha, I didn't see that there was a paddle controller too.  I was wondering about a 7800 dual-button controller.  But I did the same thing, "SMASH SMASH CLICK CLICK TAKE MY MONEY!!"  (in the best Lewis Black impersonation.)

[leech]

1 minute ago, x=usr(1536) said:

This may come down to ITAR (or other) regulations.  Note that it's been a really, really long time since I've had even the tiniest bit of involvement with ITAR compliance, so what I write may not be 100% accurate in today's world.

 

Speculation: Atari is having the devices built in a foreign country - likely China - and shipped to the US for distribution.  Once they land in America, they're subject to American export regulations.

 

Because of this, it's possible that Atari needs to file for an ITAR (or other) exemption in order to be able to legally ship them outside of the US.  If they haven't done this, the units can't be directly sold to customers outside of the country.

 

Like I say, speculation - but it could potentially explain why they're only selling units in the US.

It would explain why the VCS isn't selling directly outside of the US as well.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

6 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Because of this, it's possible that Atari needs to file for an ITAR (or other) exemption in order to be able to legally ship them outside of the US.  If they haven't done this, the units can't be directly sold to customers outside of the country.

Would they really need that for a device which is build on an almost 10 years old, tiny ARM chip?

[WaverBoy]

This would be fine IF all bloody games worked (they don’t) AND if the emulation is perfect (is it?) AND if paddle controller performance is at least up to the OG console (is it?) AND if multicarts would work (they won’t). It’s just another low-end piece of junk romdumper. There have been many attempts at an Atari 2600 HDMI-friendly console, and all of them have come up short. How bloody difficult can it be? Very bloody difficult, apparently. What we want, “Atari”, is an FPGA console that looks like (or is sufficiently nostalgically reminiscent of) the original woodgrain console that doesn’t rely on software emulation/rom dumping. SD card compatibility would be nice, but as long as multicarts work I’m good. And if “Atari” won’t give us that, I wish to hell that Analogue would.

Edited August 22, 2023 by WaverBoy

[+5-11under]

1 hour ago, mactari said:

I wish this 2600+ was a Kickstarter or something where you had an iota of protection.

I don't think there's any protection with Kickstarter.

[alex_79]

27 minutes ago, mactari said:

How does conventional bankswitching work with a ROM dumper...

Keep in mind that conventional bankswicthing "works" with a ROM dumper only if the bankswicthing scheme has been already documented and if support for it has been added the dumper itself and to the emulator. Only in that case you can plug your cartridge in your emulator box + cart dumper and it would seem like you are playing it (but you're not! the emulator is emulating the Atari console and the cartridge too).

 

If a different bankswitching scheme is designed (or discovered: e.g. there have been many cartridge form Brazil documented in the last few years using all sort of bankswicthing schemes variations), then it will not work on the emulation box + cart dumper unless there's the possibility to upgrade the software (both the emulator and the cart dumper), and someone willing to do so.

This has nothing to do with going beyond the original capability of the console (BTW, bankswicthing goes beyond the original capability of the console, which is designed to address up to 4k of rom in a cartridge, with no extra ram).

 

No one will ever have to update a real 2600 console to play a new (or newly discovered) 2600 game. A real 2600 console doesn't dump cartridges.

 

The additional issue with ARM games and this kind of emulation boxes is that part of the code is only executed by the arm chip, and so it doesn't appear on the cart connector at all.

So you cannot dump the entire code that the emulator needs to emulate that cartridge. (If you could, you'd still need to update the dumper and emulator for each new scheme, anyway).

[leech]

5 minutes ago, WaverBoy said:

This would be fine IF all bloody games worked (they don’t) AND if the emulation is perfect (is it?) AND if paddle controller performance is at least up to the OG console (is it?) AND if multicarts would work (they won’t). It’s just another low-end piece of junk romdumper. There have been many attempts at an Atari 2600 HDMI-friendly console, and all of them have come up short. How bloody difficult can it be? Very bloody difficult, apparently. What we want, “Atari”, is an FPGA console that looks like (or is sufficiently nostalgically reminiscent of) the original woodgrain console that doesn’t rely on software emulation/rom dumping. SD card compatibility would be nice, but as long as multicarts work I’m good. And if “Atari” won’t give us that, I wish to hell that Analogue would.

An FPGA based 7800/2600 would seriously be the best method, since you could then wire up the correct paths to read the cartridge like a real machine would.  You'd think you wouldn't even need that beefy of a chip for these.  Plus allowing it to be upgraded later with new features... A literal recreation of the 2600/7800 in maybe even various shells (like say someone really loves the heavy sixer look, or someone really loves the 7800 look, plus there would be those that collected all of them, you know they would...)  Just make it work exactly like a 7800 does, and maybe even include the newer Yamaha and other stuff that some of the multicarts add. 

Has anyone been able to build a cart interface for an FPGA based system (like the MiSTer?).

[82-T/A]

Ok, just looked... Ball Blazer for the 7800 is in fact supported... so that means whatever it means with regard to the POKI chip.

 

When you look at the Atari games that it says it does not support, there's literally only 3 (that I could count) in the list of like several hundred, so I wouldn't be that concerned.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

18 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Would they really need that for a device which is build on an almost 10 years old, tiny ARM chip?

Maybe.  Bear in mind that ITAR covers both hardware and software, so either one could be a potential block to export.  FWIW, I'm not referring specifically to crypto when I say that; just speaking generally.  ITAR's had some significant changes over the years and crypto is just one of them.

 

Either way, I can't see why the machine wouldn't be eligible for export: unless the modern equivalent of Henry Thomas' Cloak & Dagger cartridge is hidden in there, it should be pretty easy to certify for an exemption if necessary.  Foreign ownership of the company may throw a wrench into the works, though that's more speculation on my behalf.

 

Of course, we are talking about Atari, SA.  Competence isn't really one of their strong points.

[nightwheel]

I have to wonder whether this hardware was developed in house or if it's another AtGames creation. AtGames has experience with some of their Sega consoles with adding cartridge support.

 

Anyways, I have to wonder if atari is doing the emulation route first. That way they could see if it is worth the effort of doing something more premium. Because if this doesn't do so well, why spend the effort on working on an FPGA base system. Though if they decide to do an FPGA based Atari clone. I would have to assume they would probably need to base the design off of the Jr or the 2800/Sears Video Arcade II to differentiate it from the 2600+. If they were to commission a FPGA console. At that point, they should just work directly with Analogue.

Edited August 22, 2023 by nightwheel

[donjn]

7 minutes ago, nightwheel said:

I have to wonder whether this hardware was developed in house or if it's another AtGames creation. AtGames has experience with some of their Sega consoles with adding cartridge support.

 

Anyways, I have to wonder if atari is doing the emulation route first. That way they could see if it is worth the effort of doing something more premium. Because if this doesn't do so well, why spend the effort on working on an FPGA base system. Though if they decide to do an FPGA based Atari clone. I would have to assume they would probably need to base the design off of the Jr or the 2800/Sears Video Arcade II to differentiate it from the 2600+. If they were to commission a FPGA console. At that point, they should just work directly with Analogue.

But its circle, it might not do well BECAUSE it is not the real thing (FPGA). Although we might be the 5%..

[+x=usr(1536)]

Since there are now multiple threads going regarding this device, I wasn't aware of this until now:

 

 

Basically, international retailers are being worked on and an announcement should (presumably) happen relatively soon.

[WaverBoy]

1 hour ago, leech said:

An FPGA based 7800/2600 would seriously be the best method, since you could then wire up the correct paths to read the cartridge like a real machine would.  You'd think you wouldn't even need that beefy of a chip for these.  Plus allowing it to be upgraded later with new features... A literal recreation of the 2600/7800 in maybe even various shells (like say someone really loves the heavy sixer look, or someone really loves the 7800 look, plus there would be those that collected all of them, you know they would...)  Just make it work exactly like a 7800 does, and maybe even include the newer Yamaha and other stuff that some of the multicarts add. 

Has anyone been able to build a cart interface for an FPGA based system (like the MiSTer?).

I’ll go one better and make it a 2600/5200/7800 console with two cartridge slots, and if SD cards are accepted then we can have it play 400/800 games too.

[M-S]

1 hour ago, WaverBoy said:

 What we want, “Atari”, is an FPGA console that looks like (or is sufficiently nostalgically reminiscent of) the original woodgrain console that doesn’t rely on software emulation/rom dumping. SD card compatibility would be nice, but as long as multicarts work I’m good. And if “Atari” won’t give us that, I wish to hell that Analogue would.

1 hour ago, leech said:

An FPGA based 7800/2600 would seriously be the best method, since you could then wire up the correct paths to read the cartridge like a real machine would.  You'd think you wouldn't even need that beefy of a chip for these.  Plus allowing it to be upgraded later with new features... A literal recreation of the 2600/7800 in maybe even various shells (like say someone really loves the heavy sixer look, or someone really loves the 7800 look, plus there would be those that collected all of them, you know they would...)  Just make it work exactly like a 7800 does, and maybe even include the newer Yamaha and other stuff that some of the multicarts add. 

Has anyone been able to build a cart interface for an FPGA based system (like the MiSTer?).

58 minutes ago, nightwheel said:

I have to wonder whether this hardware was developed in house or if it's another AtGames creation. AtGames has experience with some of their Sega consoles with adding cartridge support.

 

Anyways, I have to wonder if atari is doing the emulation route first. That way they could see if it is worth the effort of doing something more premium. Because if this doesn't do so well, why spend the effort on working on an FPGA base system. Though if they decide to do an FPGA based Atari clone. I would have to assume they would probably need to base the design off of the Jr or the 2800/Sears Video Arcade II to differentiate it from the 2600+. If they were to commission a FPGA console. At that point, they should just work directly with Analogue.

The word FPGA has really become a marketing keyword nowadays, there's a high chance that even an FPGA console would work with some special cartridges, but not all of them, since they all work differently unlike other consoles which had proper pins designed for expansions in cartridges. Some Mister developers were complaining a while ago that they couldn't get any expanded games to work on it. Also, it's not an official statement, but Analogue doesn't think they would profit from doing anything related to Atari, and if they could, they would want their console to be compatible with everything that's on the market and the homebrew scene, and they probably can't.

Plus all that, an FPGA console would probably start at 220U$, with a package containing three adapters for 100U$, if it was made by Atari it would be like 500U$ or more considering they are selling an emulation box for 129$, a much better use of FPGA would be to replace a single chip(like the TIA) and use generic 6502 and RAM units, although I think the TIA in specific could replaced by something much simpler.

[alex_79]

33 minutes ago, M-S said:

there's a high chance that even an FPGA console would work with some special cartridges, but not all of them, since they all work differently unlike other consoles which had proper pins designed for expansions in cartridges. Some Mister developers were complaining a while ago that they couldn't get any expanded games to work on it.

They were referring to making them work from SD card. The de-10 nano FPGA doesn't have enough free I/O pins to implement a proper carttridge port.

Having a SD card slot on a FPGA has the same issues as emulation. Each time a new bankswitching method/ cart type is developed, the core has to be updated to support it (and the FPGA used might at some point not being powerful enough to simulate some of the new hardware).

On the other hand, If the FPGA has a real cartridge port and the timing and signal levels are the same as on a real 2600, I don't see why ANY game shouldn't work with it.

The one in this thread works with the Harmony cart, and it even runs some of the bus stuffing demos to some extent (and those are not 100% compatible even with real 2600 consoles).

 

I'd really love if a FPGA recreation of the 2600 would become a reality someday, with absolutely no SD card, USB controllers or anything else that wasn't on a real 2600: just a cartridge port and the 2 controller ports. Any addition to that will only cause incompatibilities or the need to upgrade the thing each time you want to support new hardware and accessories.

Edited August 22, 2023 by alex_79

[BillDMatt]

2 hours ago, WaverBoy said:

This would be fine IF all bloody games worked (they don’t) AND if the emulation is perfect (is it?) AND if paddle controller performance is at least up to the OG console (is it?) AND if multicarts would work (they won’t). It’s just another low-end piece of junk romdumper. There have been many attempts at an Atari 2600 HDMI-friendly console, and all of them have come up short. How bloody difficult can it be? Very bloody difficult, apparently. What we want, “Atari”, is an FPGA console that looks like (or is sufficiently nostalgically reminiscent of) the original woodgrain console that doesn’t rely on software emulation/rom dumping. SD card compatibility would be nice, but as long as multicarts work I’m good. And if “Atari” won’t give us that, I wish to hell that Analogue would.

I don't understand either,  the framework has been laid out for them by the modding community.    I would think under the hood follow the example of a modded RCA 2600 and connect it to a RetroTink like device ,run the hdmi out the back all under the shell,  Lord knows there is tons of room inside that console.  

 

Also going forward is there way the homebrew developers could create their new games using this platform?   

Edited August 22, 2023 by BillDMatt

[0078265317]

6 hours ago, chad5200 said:

Take note... not all games work with it:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0609/3658/5381/files/Atari-2600Plus-Compatibility.pdf

 

Makes me wonder about all the homebrews... especially the Champ Games.

Only 3 games fail, not bad.  I also have the flashback 9 with the SD card and all the rooms.  So this might not be needed.  But 129 is not bad.

Edited August 22, 2023 by 0078265317

[+splendidnut]

6 minutes ago, BillDMatt said:

Also going forward is there way the homebrew developers could create their new games using this platform?   

Sure, by constraining themselves to what is compatible and supported by this particular system.

 

----

 

Personally, I write games targeting the original system, and don't necessarily take into consideration any of these 'not-fully-compatible' systems.  This may include using bank-switching schemes that may or may not be compatible.  It may also include using enhanced cartridge hardware that's dependent on a proper cartridge bus being implemented....which appears to be the issue with this 'new' system.

 

If the projects I work on happen to be compatible, great!  If there are quick changes that can be made or issues that can be resolved -easily-, great!  Otherwise, you're out of luck.

 

Overall, this is a system to appeal to the masses interested in retro gaming, and not necessarily a system to suit everyone's wants / needs.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

19 minutes ago, 0078265317 said:

Only 3 games fail, not bad. 

Plus 30 classic games which are marked "Untested" and will definitely fail too.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

5 minutes ago, splendidnut said:

Personally, I write games targeting the original system, and don't necessarily take into consideration any of these 'not-fully-compatible' systems.  This may include using bank-switching schemes that may or may not be compatible.  It may also include using enhanced cartridge hardware that's dependent on a proper cartridge bus being implemented....which appears to be the issue with this 'new' system.

 

If the projects I work on happen to be compatible, great!  If there are quick changes that can be made or issues that can be resolved -easily-, great!  Otherwise, you're out of luck.

/signed

[0078265317]

7 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Plus 30 classic games which are marked "Untested" and will definitely fail too.

Not necessarily.

[john_q_atari]

50 minutes ago, alex_79 said:

The de-10 nano FPGA doesn't have enough free I/O pins to implement a proper carttridge port.

That is simply not true. Read the de10-nano technical documentation. The number of IO pins necessary depends on the game system and also on how the interface is designed.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

20 minutes ago, 0078265317 said:

Not necessarily.

If you want to believe...

[MMarcoux66]

At least Custer's Revenge was tested and is compatible ...  of all the games they could have tested. Wow.