The new Atari 2600+ w/HDMI out and 2600/7800 support

[polyex]

3 hours ago, leech said:

Curious what you would change?  I would have wanted a heavy sixer, myself.  Definitely would be better if it were FPGA.  In fact this is one of the perfect examples of why FPGA doesn't count as emulation.

I would have wireless joysticks (two instead of one wired), and wireless paddles. I would also make it work with homebrews. In other words compatible with the original system.

Edited August 23, 2023 by polyex

[Two-in-the-Belfry]

So is it just emulating the physical games you put in? I don't really understand.

 

I'm torn on this. I kind of feel like if I'm going to be playing the cartridges I already own, I'd rather do it with my Heavy Sixer.

[Atari Superman]

6 minutes ago, Two-in-the-Belfry said:

I kind of feel like if I'm going to be playing the cartridges I already own, I'd rather do it with my Heavy Sixer.

The original hardware is my preference, too, but mine is reaching the end of its life expectancy along with my CRTs. At some point these are going to give up the ghost. I don't want my ability to Atari in the living room to go with them.

[CapitanClassic]

3 hours ago, leech said:

Curious what you would change?  I would have wanted a heavy sixer, myself.  Definitely would be better if it were FPGA.  In fact this is one of the perfect examples of why FPGA doesn't count as emulation.

I would have wanted something different that what has been released over the last 20 years.

 

What would have been interesting (if not going the AFB2 Atari-on-a-chip route) would be integration with PlusROM support that links to Atari.com own High Score Club with community tournaments and daily challenges, the ability to track your own score improvements over time.  Something like AntStream for online high scores or at a minimum if you didn’t want to hook it to your WiFi an embedded MySQL instance to track and graph your own scores with a nice interface (maybe a nice marquee from the 2600/7800 box art (arcade below)), selectors for Game#, difficulty switches, etc.

[+Atari_Warlord]

I'm not very excited about the lack of compatibility for the modern 2600 games, but will consider this for playing my old 7800 games if we can get confirmation that it will work with the two button controllers.

[Bakasama]

22 minutes ago, Two-in-the-Belfry said:

So is it just emulating the physical games you put in? I don't really understand.

 

I'm torn on this. I kind of feel like if I'm going to be playing the cartridges I already own, I'd rather do it with my Heavy Sixer.

The way I understand this is that cart port is a ROM dumper and saves the game into RAM and system emulates 2600 with the game stored in RAM.

[82-T/A]

33 minutes ago, Atari_Warlord said:

I'm not very excited about the lack of compatibility for the modern 2600 games, but will consider this for playing my old 7800 games if we can get confirmation that it will work with the two button controllers.

 

I know a lot of people are saying that, but literally of the list of Atari games, only 3 out of that 100+ list showed up as having failed. I'm not so sure that modern 2600 games won't still work. The Atari 7800 game Ball Blazer, which uses a Pokey chip on the cart, still shows that it works just fine with this system.

 

I know I'm an eternal optimist, but I feel like we're being a bit demoralizing and shitting all over it without anyone actually having played it yet. I know there are a lot of people who are cynical, but I think we know at least that Atari does come through with what they commit to (e.g., the VCS).

 

I guess I do dislike the negativity, when I don't think it's necessarily deserved. (not you Warlord, just saying in general).

[john_q_atari]

1 hour ago, leech said:

And for those that still do, you can get adapters that go from HDMI -> VGA.  I kind of want to hook some of my newer computers up to a CRT, since in a lot of ways CRT is still far superior to LCD.

Don't make me cry. I had a nice sony trinitron AG that i got rid of years ago due to space concerns.

[SIO2]

14 hours ago, slacker said:

...

I'm actually really interested in hearing about the quality of the new joysticks and paddles they're also releasing. They say they're compatible with the original system. If they're a nice quality it could be worth it for me to pick them up.

 

 

 

I am interested in the controller as well.  Does designed to original specifications mean rubber falls off, insert breaks and oil can switches?

[zzip]

28 minutes ago, 82-T/A said:

 

I know a lot of people are saying that, but literally of the list of Atari games, only 3 out of that 100+ list showed up as having failed. I'm not so sure that modern 2600 games won't still work. The Atari 7800 game Ball Blazer, which uses a Pokey chip on the cart, still shows that it works just fine with this system.

 

I know I'm an eternal optimist, but I feel like we're being a bit demoralizing and shitting all over it without anyone actually having played it yet. I know there are a lot of people who are cynical, but I think we know at least that Atari does come through with what they commit to (e.g., the VCS).

 

I guess I do dislike the negativity, when I don't think it's necessarily deserved. (not you Warlord, just saying in general).

I see this as the kind of thing that shows up on the shelves just in time for christmas and it's the perfect gift for the GenX dad who has everything,  It will play the most popular game that most of those people care about just fine.   People who have a pile of exotic, community-developed carts are probably not the intended audience.    Some people don't like not being the intended audience and will complain bitterly and daily about that.    If this is anything like the VCS then the threads will be filled with negativity until the device releases and then you'll start to see positive threads from the people who own it.

 

The 2600+ isn't for me either, but I'm glad the current Atari is trying to remember it's roots,  sure beats casino hotels and crypto.

 

 

[chad5200]

1 hour ago, CapitanClassic said:

What would have been interesting (if not going the AFB2 Atari-on-a-chip route) would be integration with PlusROM support that links to Atari.com own High Score Club with community tournaments and daily challenges, the ability to track your own score improvements over time.

 

THIS!  I love the PlusCart(+) with its High Score Club!  And @Al_Nafuur keeps adding new games all the time.  This is the most fun way to play 2600 games... especially if you have a buddy you are competing against.

 

For anyone not familiar with the PlusCart... you can see the current list of shared high score enabled games here:

https://highscore.firmaplus.de/

 

I would love it if the Atari 2600+ did something similar or at least supported the PlusCart.  But until then... I will keep playing with the PlusCart.

 

 

[tripled79]

9 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

The Allwinner in the R77 and the Rockchip used here have about the same performance.

 

What's the problem with the ARM games in Stella on R77? Which games are problematic? And how? It is Stella 6.6 and you do not have a R77 with faulty RAM, right?

Is there a fix for that problem?

[+Living Room Arcade]

Was really pumped to hear this announcement yesterday!  The thing looks amazing (even at 80% size)!  I'm sure a lot of nostalgic gamers will probably go for it and love it.  Practically speaking, I will probably still continue to use my PC running Stella as my emulator "console" because I like ROMS.  But maybe in future will get a new Atari CX40+ joystick.  (They say it has the same size and weight you remember.)  And a brand new pair of CX30+ paddles instead of trying to clean up OEM from eBay.  

Edited August 24, 2023 by Living Room Arcade

[BillDMatt]

I'm curious  if atari put out this console that had the FPGA ,  bluetooth wireless controllers and and an sd card slot   what would be it's cost?   I'm assuming since Atari doesn't have the game ecosystem like Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony does to sell this at a loss and use the revenue from game sales to make up for the costs.   

 

$200?  $300?      

[BIGHMW]

No thanks. No Harmony Encore/ARM/PlusCart/homebrew/third-party controller/trak-ball compatibility, HELL NO!!! RIP-OFF!!!

 

Got a REAL 2600 Jr. Short Rainbow coming in tomorrow from Toronto, have tons of controller options for her already and a Harmony Encore, that'll do for me, my RF-to-HDMI converter does the rest. As for the 7800 and compatibility with her, I simply need to get my Lil' Sexy into the shop for the powering issues she has and reacquire the Concerto cart for her., I've already got the 5200 and tons of gear for her already. Got the XEGS, just need either an AVG Cart or an Ultimate Cart for her, and I also have a ColecoVision and just need to reacquire the Atarimax Ultimate SD for her too.

[CapitanClassic]

1 hour ago, BillDMatt said:

I'm curious  if atari put out this console that had the FPGA ,  bluetooth wireless controllers and and an sd card slot   what would be it's cost?   I'm assuming since Atari doesn't have the game ecosystem like Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony does to sell this at a loss and use the revenue from game sales to make up for the costs.   

 

$200?  $300?      

Not an EE, so don't know for sure. It has been discussed before, at it appears you need about 15,000 configurable logic gates to emulate the 6507 / TIA / RIOT.

I think the Spartan IIs from Xilinx had FPGAs that could hand that on the lower end sub-$10. Don't know if you can still get those though, Spartan6 might be the oldest still available. Not sure how FPGAs handle non-digital I/O like the potentiometers for the paddles either (perhaps you need a more expensive FPGAs for analog signals)

Whatever Bill-of-Materials cost you come up with, multiply it by 4x and that is about the cheapest Atari could sell it for. (Also, engineering hours aren't free. So figure a minmum 3-5 engineers at $150,000 a year, for 9-12 months)

 

It's no wonder Atari just releases more of the same each year. Too much upfront cost, with mot enough guaranteed ROI. The only way you will likely see a new FPGA / ASIC 2600 if one already exists and Atari can license it for free.

 

 

 

[M-S]

On 8/22/2023 at 4:20 PM, alex_79 said:

They were referring to making them work from SD card. The de-10 nano FPGA doesn't have enough free I/O pins to implement a proper carttridge port.

Having a SD card slot on a FPGA has the same issues as emulation. Each time a new bankswitching method/ cart type is developed, the core has to be updated to support it (and the FPGA used might at some point not being powerful enough to simulate some of the new hardware).

On the other hand, If the FPGA has a real cartridge port and the timing and signal levels are the same as on a real 2600, I don't see why ANY game shouldn't work with it.

The one in this thread works with the Harmony cart, and it even runs some of the bus stuffing demos to some extent (and those are not 100% compatible even with real 2600 consoles).

 

I'd really love if a FPGA recreation of the 2600 would become a reality someday, with absolutely no SD card, USB controllers or anything else that wasn't on a real 2600: just a cartridge port and the 2 controller ports. Any addition to that will only cause incompatibilities or the need to upgrade the thing each time you want to support new hardware and accessories.

Well, the console you mentioned is the only one in existence and less than 10 people have used it, it's not impossible to think some games and accessories have been left out of tests because they wouldn't work 1:1 or they needed some workaround. And if it was made as a passion project and not for sale why hasn't the author made it open source so anyone can build one?

3 hours ago, BillDMatt said:

I'm curious  if atari put out this console that had the FPGA ,  bluetooth wireless controllers and and an sd card slot   what would be it's cost?   I'm assuming since Atari doesn't have the game ecosystem like Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony does to sell this at a loss and use the revenue from game sales to make up for the costs.   

 

$200?  $300?      

 No one can be sure, but I think it's pretty safe to assume it would go past 500U$ if Atari uses the same pricing logic as the 2600+, to the point in which it's not worth it.

1 hour ago, CapitanClassic said:

It's no wonder Atari just releases more of the same each year. Too much upfront cost, with mot enough guaranteed ROI. The only way you will likely see a new FPGA / ASIC 2600 if one already exists and Atari can license it for free.

 The motherboard for the 2600 has already been reverse engineered, but the one that's complete hasn't been released to the public and the creator is also not at Atarigage, but there's also a prototype coincidentally called 2600+ which is a redesigned board and it has a thread in this forum. Almost the entire thing is done, the TIA is the only component that would need some work, some of the AV and the RGB mods already replace some of it's functions, but no one has thought about how to fully replace it.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

6 hours ago, tripled79 said:

Is there a fix for that problem?

Only partially. Check this thread.

[Greenfuzz]

So help me out here: Will this thing play homebrews like Unholy and Spies In The Night? 
 

[alex_79]

5 hours ago, M-S said:

Well, the console you mentioned is the only one in existence and less than 10 people have used it, it's not impossible to think some games and accessories have been left out of tests because they wouldn't work 1:1 or they needed some workaround.

You missed my point completely. You stated that "there's a high chance that even an FPGA console would work with some special cartridges, but not all of them, since they all work differently".

The point is that if you implement a REAL cartridge port, it doesn't matter AT ALL how the cart works, it will just work, because you don't need to recreate/emulate its hardware. Just like it does on an original 2600. That's why these "special" games work on any "normal" console. The 2600 doesn't have to know what's in the catridge, and does not behave ANY different with those "enhanced" games compared to how it does with "conventional" ones: it just outputs an address on the address bus and read/write from/to the data bus. Who cares if it's a ROM or RAM chip or some microcontroller to respond inside the cart. As long as the signals have the correct levels and timing, it will just work.

(The same goes for the controller ports and any hardware you want to plug there. If they are accessed in real time with the same signal levels as a real console, they'll just work always with existing and future hardware)

 

If a new system only plays roms from SD card (or, even worse like in this case, uses a cart dumper to (try to) create the rom "pretending" to play cartridges when it's not), then it's simply not a "real" 2600 compatible console and will never be a full replacement for an original one. No firmware upgrade will ever fix that.

 

That's the issue, not the ARM games.

Edited August 24, 2023 by alex_79

[ledzep]

On 8/22/2023 at 2:09 PM, 82-T/A said:

I know a bunch of people are shitting on this... but I have to say, I am so excited for this... I really can't tell you guys.

 

Like, I think I'm even going to go buy a second one. I love my Atari 2600... it's like, so a part of my childhood. Every shitty game... Grand Prix, Pac Man... it's like, you know how when you play an old game and it's awesome, but everyone else thinks it sucks because the graphics are so bad, but for you it's something different? This is the 2600 for me. It's a time in my life where I had NOOOO responsibilities, not a friggin' care in the world, and I just had to have fun, hahah.

 

I'm so looking forward to being able to play this on a modern screen without doing a bunch of stupid stuff like upscalers and weird crap.

 

I'm not sure I'll buy one due to the various homebrew/latency concerns previously mentioned but I'm with you 100% on the excitement and the nostalgia.  I want this thing to work and be a hit so I'm glad it seems that people are mostly upbeat about it, though I totally agree with the criticisms.  But I'm also realistic, I can't expect this version of Atari to hit a grand slam home run, just get a stand-up double, getting it closer than before will be enough considering the similar modern vibe interest in Arcade1Ups, they're way worse in terms of perfect copies (of arcade cabinets) than this new 2600+ and yet they're popular.  Frustratingly so.  I see this as a similar gambit, bootstrapping interest and hype to drive the next better iteration, then the next one, then the next one.  I mean, I couldn't understand why there were ever more than 2 Flashbacks, how many times can they sell the same but new thing?  Yet they did, they know the market better than I do, obviously.

 

I love some of those old, dumb 2600 games like Surround and Video Olympics.  The graphics are so blocky!  But I don't care, I remember playing them as a kid.  I much prefer the 5200 and Vectrex but some 2600 games are classics and worth making sure that new generations have them around to play.  Insisting that they get learned right!  It reminds of a few YouTube videos I saw recently, on the old Busch Gardens in Van Nuys and the old Disneyland Adventure Through Inner Space ride that's long gone.  I remember loving Busch Gardens, I'm still pissed it's gone.  But when I watch that video I'm sure that place would bore the shit out of me if I only saw it the first time as an adult used to better parks.  Doesn't matter, since the first (only) times I saw it was when I was a kid, I miss it.  Same for the Inner Space ride, that thing was dumb, giant snowflakes made out of white styrofoam or whatever, but I love that ride.  I wish Disney would make an Oldtimers Land and put the Inner Space ride in there along with the Starcade and the sky buckets and the original Autopia with the older cars.

 

This 2600+ will sort of be the same thing, getting closer to the "Why don't you fucking guys just make a hardware compatible 2600/7800 with FPGA or recreate the custom chips (would sell well to restorers, too) and add HDMI and stereo already?" ultimate goal.  What, did all the original engineers die?  Were the schematics lost in a fire?  Don't act like you're recreating the Apollo program, just make the damn 2600 on a PCB, clean it up and modernize it where it's common sense needed, you'd sell loads of them!

 

But again, that's making perfect the enemy of good.  I'm glad Atari is still (clumsily) trying, I don't want them to throw up their hands and go back to casinos or something equally stupid.  On the bright side, this is making me seriously consider finding a Flashback 2 and modding it with the cartridge slot.  Not the same, I know, but it's something.  I'm glad they're making new Paddles, too.

[Schnaasfan]

On 8/22/2023 at 3:24 PM, eebuckeye said:

Want to know if emulator or FPGA.  Must be an emulator for .

Since it's not FPGA I don't see a reason to replace my Retron 77 with this. But I have to say that I like the direction that Atari is taking with this. Hopefully one day maybe we will see an Atari 2600++ that is the real deal. I'd gladly pay a high price tag for that.

[akator]

19 minutes ago, ledzep said:

On the bright side, this is making me seriously consider finding a Flashback 2 and modding it with the cartridge slot.  Not the same, I know, but it's something.

You can buy a pre-modded AFB2 with cart slot at Flashback 2 Central.  I bought one last year from Jimmy and he did a great job.  Works with my Harmony Cart, too.

[akator]

23 minutes ago, Schnaasfan said:

Since it's not FPGA I don't see a reason to replace my Retron 77 with this. But I have to say that I like the direction that Atari is taking with this. Hopefully one day maybe we will see an Atari 2600++ that is the real deal. I'd gladly pay a high price tag for that.

I agree.  I won't be getting rid of my R77, but I'm curious to see the finished project before making my final decision on whether to buy a 2600+ or not.

[toddtmw]

Okay. I don’t have an R77. But they seem to be about half the price as the 2600+. 
 

can anyone give me a brief list of differences and/or pros and cons between the two?
 

Thanks