Thoughts on revising or compiling others' programs

[senior_falcon]

On 8/20/2023 at 1:34 PM, OLD CS1 said:

@tmop69 While we can appreciate your enthusiasm, how about you not jump the gun and wait until it is ready.  I am currently working with @RedBaron to clean it up, which I made perfectly clear here, and having multiple versions floating around like this is not helpful.

I am trying to understand this post.

First, Red Baron writes a nice game. People like it and Schmitzi likes it enough to make and post a disk version

Red Baron revises the program, posts it, and Schmitzi makes a second disk for version 1.1

A screenshot was requested and sometines99 posts one.

Version 2.0 is posted on facebook.

OLDCS1 makes a change and sends it to Red Baron. Willsy makes another change. Later you talk about making additional changes.

OX requests a compiled version, there is some discussion about the merits of compilation, then two posts later tmop69 posts a compiled version 2.0

You rap tmop69's knuckles about jumping the gun, even though at least 3 versions have already been posted with more to come.

MarbleMaze is clearly a work in progress. If it is OK to post multiple revisions in BASIC, why is it not OK to post an intermediate compiled version, knowing that down the road another will be necessary?

 

 

[+OLD CS1]

53 minutes ago, senior_falcon said:

MarbleMaze is clearly a work in progress. If it is OK to post multiple revisions in BASIC, why is it not OK to post an intermediate compiled version, knowing that down the road another will be necessary?

All of that is up to the author, innit?

  

53 minutes ago, senior_falcon said:

You rap tmop69's knuckles about jumping the gun, even though at least 3 versions have already been posted with more to come.

I will admit some sensitivity and bias toward @tmop69.  His project to compile old software is admirable, a true dedication of time and an almost thankless endeavor.  That said, he took two of my programs, which were recently released, and without any consultation compiled and released his compiled versions into the wild.  Neither project were ever meant to be compiled and worked just fine without compilation, even though one of them I relented to make a compiled version for cartridge use.  Seems a little inconsiderate, does it not?

[+Schmitzi]

 

In my opinion, this nice and collectively tinkering that is happening around the code here (and on AA in general) is like the standard method for the TI´s development sub-forum, and especially this topic maybe just should have been better started there to be "finished" first, and later to be finally published in the main forum here.

But how can one - who assumes his program is finally perfect - know in advance that so much requests and help arrives ? 😁

That´s the reason why I wait for programs in progress (in the develop forum) to be finally announced and published here in the main forum, before I download them (except I am curious and want to know what is going on ).

 

Concerning .BINs (=compiling) or .DSKs or TIFILES, I personally totally prefer compiled BINs because of the much easier handling if you just want to quickly show or play games. There is no easier way for me to spread and use software on the TI-99/4A than with the FinalGROM´99. (Sorry, but that´s it for me) 

 

Concerning spreading and a for me suddenly New CS1, if you release your uncompiled source code in plain Basic (and maybe without any strong copyright claims?) out to the world, why do you wonder that people grab and do good things with it as usual ? Yes, it is hobby, fun and passion, but at the end of the day, we are not on a private island, we are in real life here.

 

xXx

 

PS: Are there the TIFILES of version 2.0 somewhere around to make new .DSK ? As I am german, I really want to make it 100% complete

 

2. PS: Is it really called v2.0 ? (I havent checked yet). This "v1.1" that named my 2nd .DSK here just was an internal identifier for me to be able to differ the downloads, and maybe this was the birth of a "v2.0" name ? 😁

 

 

[+OLD CS1]

1 hour ago, Schmitzi said:

Concerning spreading and a for me suddenly New CS1, if you release your uncompiled source code in plain Basic (and maybe without any strong copyright claims?) out to the world, why do you wonder that people grab and do good things with it as usual ? Yes, it is hobby, fun and passion, but at the end of the day, we are not on a private island, we are in real life here.

If someone had asked me first, I might have said, "yes," or I might have provided one, myself.  At the very least, when I put my name on something as the author, I have a certain feel or way I want it to work.  And, at the very least, if someone believes there is a better way to do what I have done with my program, it would be polite to ask.  I did this when I made modifications to Marble Maze, I PMed @RedBaron and showed him what I had done, rather than just drop it into the forum.

 

Tinkering is fine.  But, if someone wants to take my program and put their name on it, it would, again at the very least, be polite to ask, intentions, subjectively to "do good things with it," notwithstanding.

 

On the level of copyright, strong copyright claims are irrelevant.  I am endowed automatically with the copyright to what I produce, and reworking, re-releasing, or unauthorized distribution violates my rights.  Releasing something publicly, on the Internet or otherwise, is not an automatic abdication of rights.  Compounding this, the two programs of mine in question were licensed from the original publisher and agent for the authors.  I possess no authority to assign those licenses nor does anyone else possess the authority to assume those licenses.  (Whether the original publisher or author still exists is also irrelevant.) We tend to play fast and loose with copyrights and hide behind the "hobby" label, debatably for better or worse and I can offer arguments for both.

 

These programs of mine were not just compiled and distributed without notification or permission, but older versions of the programs which were only meant for historical purposes were absconded with.  One of the games already had a compiled edition available, which was obviously ignored, as well.

 

I was chastised before for the act of making a label for another author's game here.  I was in the wrong for such a presumption and he was 100% correct to rebuff me.

 

Simply put, the "tl;dr", it is not only not difficult to ask, but it is correct and polite.  That is real life, my stance on which may or may not curry favor, and on which you may see as a NEW CS1, but I assure you, @OLD CS1's stance has been thus for a very, very long time.

[+Schmitzi]

 

Yes ok, I can understand that point of view now (and of course can live with it)

And maybe it is the other way around, so that I am the one who thinks that this here is a private island, and just grab what I want and need

 

tldr?

 

[Retrospect]

3 minutes ago, Schmitzi said:

tldr?

Is that the utility that reads disks and can output a text file with Basic from it?  Or is it some sort of internet abbreviation that yet again I'm unaware of

 

If it's the former ... yeah we have tools that can read disks and such like and we can pretty much crack and copy software.  

 

I think what's needed here is just to be polite with other member's software (and even non members).  For example, when I release certain games, 9 times out of 10 I will say "this is freeware you can do what you like with it" and so people do what they like with it.  If it says Copyright Retrospect on the front and i've said no such thing, it's polite to ask.

 

I've stayed out of this argument for a while as Tmop and Old CS1 are both considered my mates online.  I like them both.  I don't want to fall out with either one.  

 

I remember Old CS1 seeking permission from none other than Taito to make a videogame, for some stupid beyond comprehension reason he was refused. So he didn't do it. 

 

I remember getting hold of Tursi's "Stranger" and playing with it a little, altering the font and compiling it to make it faster, gave it a title screen.  I sought permission from Tursi before that version ever saw the light of day, if permission had been refused it would have been put in the bin never to be released.

Just because we have TIDIR and such like doesn't mean we can automatically do certain things with no level of politeness for whomever it may concern.  

I mean, you Yankies carry guns right  ?  Doesn't mean you can just shoot people.  Ok bad Analogy .  

[+OLD CS1]

10 minutes ago, Schmitzi said:

this here is a private island, and just grab what I want and need

To a large degree, it tends to be our own semi-private island.  We are a concentrated corner of the world where a lot of TI stuff happens.  I think that is great, and I am proud to be here and proud to know, in whatever way I do, everyone here.

[tmop69]

@OLD CS1 regading Tiles I was thinking I had clearified that I was not aware that there is already a compiled version:

 

 

For MarbleMaze, the V2.0 was published of Facebook (or Boomerbook, accordingly to your lingo) and I do see your name in the readme/program and I do not see any license/usage restriction expressly mentioning the fact that must not modified/compiled/etc. from the original author. And I have already compiled some of his code that is published on ti99iuc site and I know he was aware of it and never received any complain.

Moreover, I've seen that another V2.1 version was published on Facebook, so maybe he is interested in submitting updated/intermediate versions.

 

In any case, don't worry, I can assure you that this will not happen anymore, since I'll stop working on the TI. No more compiled programs, no more Megapacks for MiSTer, Tomy Tutor, etc.

 

[+OLD CS1]

15 minutes ago, tmop69 said:

I was thinking I had clearified that I was not aware that there is already a compiled version

The point is I am right here -- my PMs are open and the thread was fully visible.  You could have asked.  Per my other points, no one has to explicitly announce restrictions; restrictions are implicit in the copyright attached to the creation of a work.  I am not looking to take any legal action against someone, so I just ask for the courtesy.

15 minutes ago, tmop69 said:

In any case, don't worry, I can assure you that this will not happen anymore, since I'll stop working on the TI. No more compiled programs, no more Megapacks for MiSTer, Tomy Tutor, etc.

Why?  You faced a single point of adversity for a small part of what you did.  Are you really going to abandon something you enjoy for that weak affront? We should see such criticism as an opportunity, and Lord knows I have had my own fair share.  This melodrama is unnecessary, and in case you had not noticed, I have praised your efforts more than once.

[+OLD CS1]

35 minutes ago, Schmitzi said:

tldr?

tl;dr = "too long, didn't read."  A short summary of a long and potentially unreadable diatribe.  What we GenX and Boomers over here used to call "the Reader's Digest version."  Or "the Cliff Notes" version (now what Millennials and Zoomers would call "the Spark Notes.")

 

Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TL;DR

[99V]

TS;R

[Tursi]

Usually when someone announces they are going to abandon a community, and they are sincere, they've been looking for a reason to do so for some time. The "look what you made me do" response is a bit much, but I think we can safely assume that he's just burned out and didn't mean it harshly.

 

[99V]

For TI stuff, since it is a 45 year old computer system, I think anyone making software for it now would be aware of this forum.

 

So if you have written software any time from 45 years ago until now and no one can find you on this forum, then I think making copies, dsk versions, compiled versions, and so on is fine because at least you did your due diligence to find the author here. 

 

If authors are presently on this forum working on programs right now as we speak, I think a PM saying: I'm going to do this or that, is that OK or are you coming up with a new version soon that I should wait for before doing anything, is a good idea.

 

I've seen people talking about my program for years on this forum. Since I didn't come on here to show I'm alive then I couldn't expect people to track me down to ask permission to do things with my 30 or 40 year old program. 

 

However when I did show up people were very respectful and TMOP and ti99iuc went above and beyond to work with me to edit something I never thought I would handle again.

 

That being said, if there weren't issues with floating decimals, I would have expected to have seen a compiled version long ago on this forum that I was basically viewing anonymously, and it would have been fine with me. 

 

So if the author or editors are on this forum presently I think a heads up is warranted before doing anything with a program.

 

Now I'll disappear for another 40 years. You are free to massage my program until I get back 😁

Edited August 23, 2023 by 99V

[99V]

Disclaimer: that last part was a joke

 

As Jennifer Hudson once said, I'm not going

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by 99V

[tmop69]

4 hours ago, Tursi said:

Usually when someone announces they are going to abandon a community, and they are sincere, they've been looking for a reason to do so for some time. The "look what you made me do" response is a bit much, but I think we can safely assume that he's just burned out and didn't mean it harshly.

 

I'm not abandoning the forum (although they can ban me, if they prefer...), I'll simply not produce/share any more content for the TI. Someone will be very happy for this, someone alse maybe not.

 

I'll passively click on the "download" button, maybe write some posts, surely compete for the high score for West Bank, etc. This is fast, easy and less time expensive if compared to produce content.

 

[+Schmitzi]

3 hours ago, 99V said:

For TI stuff, since it is a 45 year old computer system, I think anyone making software for it now would be aware of this forum.

 

So if you have written software any time from 45 years ago until now and no one can find you on this forum, then I think making copies, dsk versions, compiled versions, and so on is fine because at least you did your due diligence to find the author here. 

 

If authors are presently on this forum working on programs right now as we speak, I think a PM saying: I'm going to do this or that, is that OK or are you coming up with a new version soon that I should wait for before doing anything, is a good idea.

 

I've seen people talking about my program for years on this forum. Since I didn't come on here to show I'm alive then I couldn't expect people to track me down to ask permission to do things with my 30 or 40 year old program. 

 

However when I did show up people were very respectful and TMOP and ti99iuc went above and beyond to work with me to edit something I never thought I would handle again.

 

That being said, if there weren't issues with floating decimals, I would have expected to have seen a compiled version long ago on this forum that I was basically viewing anonymously, and it would have been fine with me. 

 

So if the author or editors are on this forum presently I think a heads up is warranted before doing anything with a program.

 

Now I'll disappear for another 40 years. You are free to massage my program until I get back 😁

 

I understand the idea of asking people for permission, but for example, how to manage that for more than 600 conversions like TMOP did in the last 3 years, sitting there night & day, any free minute ? Did he do anything else in this 3 years, with so much massive work of reprogramming parts of code here and there, to optimize it, to find, communicate and solve decade old (unkonw) errors or glitches, to be able to compile it, and to test it intensively then ? How many more years would it have taken if he had the idea or duty to find out about all the people and to ask them for a "yes" (where I assume that all pogrammer would agree so or so...) ?

At least the people floating around here on AA, day by day since years, should have known in advance that a compilation will automatically happen...

 

 

 

 

[99V]

I already explained that if someone can't be reached on this forum for a program they wrote I think it's OK to improve it by compiling or making it digital. If authors are here then talking with them is in order. 

[99V]

When I wasn't here I really had no say on things but now that I'm here I expect people to talk to me before doing something with a program I wrote or will write. 

[+Schmitzi]

 

But how to find a programmer here on AA with his real name given in a code from the 80ies,

when almost all people are using pseudonyms ?  🕵️‍♂️

 

 

 

 

[tmop69]

Just one final clarification: I've never removed in any of the 600+ compiled programs the name of the original author, even though in same cases it was really difficult (if not impossible...) to undestand the original source. There are some games in German, French, Italian and English versions and, yes, not in all cases the English version was the original one... For 30/40 years old BASIC programs was impracticable and unrealistic to check/ask the permission first.

 

Moreover, the philosophy of BASIC listing was to type, modify them and learn. We all started in such way to code with the TI. If this is not true anymore, this is no more retro-programming.

If, in 2023, someone decides to publish the source code of a program, there are a lot of modes to clarify the possible use of the source code. In the Word file in the .zip there is no mention to: not modify, not compile and/or not compile this V2.0 version, etc. from the original author.

The post in reply to @OX. request of compiled code was just a disquisition on how good is to have the game in XB and not in compiled form. But maybe it is just my broken ability to read/understand English... sorry, I'm just an Italian, so we like "melodrama" (and you can add also "pizza", "mandolino" and other predictable stereotypes).

 

And it's also interesting the concept of "ask permission for...". I do not remember to have ever received any request of permission to modify some of my scans that I've uploaded on whtech approx. 20 years ago. They have cleaned the scans and improved the final quality: good. There was no mention of my nick in the new work: ok, no complains, since my initial work was improved, I've not requested to be mentioned, I've not explicitly requested to not modify the files, etc.  I was flexible enough to expect that publishing the raw jpegs, instead of watermarked, protected pdfs, could expose to changes, but the TI was/is a so small community that for me was a nonsense to force restrictions. So, I do not think I deserve any lessons here on what is "courtesy".

 

It would be now very interesting if the original author of MarbleMaze for DOS would complain of the un-authorized TI99 porting, because he was a C64 guy...

 

[JasonACT]

5 hours ago, Tursi said:

didn't mean it harshly

Yeah, he's a good guy... But ham burglar time going on here, if you asked me.

[99V]

1 hour ago, Schmitzi said:

 

But how to find a programmer here on AA with his real name given in a code from the 80ies,

when almost all people are using pseudonyms ?  🕵️‍♂️

 

 

 

 

Obviously people you know are the programmers. I've been here three weeks and I already know a lot of authors of particular games. 

[99V]

In about 2006 or 2007 I was sent a .bin copy of my game to use on an emulator someone sent me. I didn't jump online to see who screwed with my junk. I was impressed. 

 

I think the only issue here is with current work being done on programs where it is very easy to just contact the author if you know who they are, and you have a way to contact them, and let them know what you want to do.

 

I remember being frustrated working on programs where there were so many copies floating around that you couldn't keep track of them. Was version 1.995b the correct one or was version 2.011a the correct one? It was maddening.

 

Can we just give a little courtesy to people who are in the same threads as you posting on the same day in the same year? I think that is all anyone is asking for. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by 99V

[JasonACT]

It's 11:40pm here, so I'm going to bed...  But someone else didn't wear me out, and neither did I.

[99V]

8 minutes ago, 99V said:

In about 2006 or 2007 I was sent a .bin copy of my game to use on an emulator someone sent me. I didn't jump online to see who screwed with my junk. I was impressed. 

 

I think the only issue here is with current work being done on programs where it is very easy to just contact the author if you know who they are, and you have a way to contact them, and let them know what you want to do.

 

I remember being frustrated working on programs where there were so many copies floating around that you couldn't keep track of them. Was version 1.995b the correct one or was version 2.011a the correct one? It was maddening.

 

Can we just give a little courtesy to people who are in the same threads as you posting on the same day in the same year? I think that is all anyone is asking for.

*also for newer games where the author is accessible here on this forum.