Do you prefer the recharged games or the original version's ?

[ledzep]

40 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165992198365

 

https://arcadeblogger.com/2016/07/29/the-secret-history-of-the-arcade-trackball/

 

https://www.candlepin.com/product-category/bowling-balls/ - this is where you could get an equivalent.

 

If you know your shit, you could make one with the parts that do exists. Oh, you can get the ball.... a 4.5" candlepin bowling ball. These are smaller than the regular bowling balls that have finger holes. All the other parts can be had for most of those are generic electronic components with modern made equivalent. The main thing is that you are basically rolling a bowling ball in place and have to have an apparatus to keep it in place but at around 2 lbs and 5 to 7 ounces, you'll be okay. You wouldn't want to drop the ball on your toe or anything but it's something you can get easily.

 

A tabletop missile command controller with actual candlepin bowling ball used (what was used in the arcade unit), inside a sturdy box is doable and can be made to be able to plug into a USB port and played with authentic feel as the arcade game and be the closest you get to playing the actual arcade game in the exact original arcade system. Main difference may be exact height of the controls. In typical arcades, you were standing not sitting while at home, you are usually playing while sitting.

 

Unless you are wanting customers to pay $600-$700 for a Missile Command Control panel or such with the authentic large 4.5" trackball (set of 4 being $260 give or take and you use one per unit of product being around $70-$80 per ball with S&H cost for you to get the balls shipped to you for assembly) then $300-$400 in misc. bill of material and a little profit. It's just a wild ass guess but its possible that such could be closer to $1000 in order to make about $50-$100 profit) not including s&h to customer. We're talking easily $1000 for the authentic experience of the controls that ledzep would love for authentic Missile Command experience. 

 

It would be worth it!  Man, you are actually tempting me to try that... but I'm not clinically insane yet, so no.

 

Hahahaa, I kid, no way would anyone be expected to cobble together that monstrosity.  Arcade Centipede (and cabaret Missile Command) used the smaller billiard ball trak-ball size, like what the 5200 uses.  Those are much more common and self-contained units that you can buy online, many MAME cabinets use them.  USB connections and everything.  I think only the arcade Missile Command and Atari Football (and Soccer) had those larger trak-balls?  There were a couple other novelty games that nobody remembers, but as far as the popular games, more of them used the smaller trak-ball.

[Wildstar]

7 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

It would be worth it!  Man, you are actually tempting me to try that... but I'm not clinically insane yet, so no.

 

Hahahaa, I kid, no way would anyone be expected to cobble together that monstrosity.  Arcade Centipede (and cabaret Missile Command) used the smaller billiard ball trak-ball size, like what the 5200 uses.  Those are much more common and self-contained units that you can buy online, many MAME cabinets use them.  USB connections and everything.  I think only the arcade Missile Command and Atari Football (and Soccer) had those larger trak-balls?  There were a couple other novelty games that nobody remembers, but as far as the popular games, more of them used the smaller trak-ball.

Yeah... I know. Some of my cost estimate there is a wild ass guess. The ball, I have a fair estimated cost but the other components and being of quality like the metal parts versus cheap plastic makes a difference and is a variable such as electronic including usb interface. I, too, don't expect anyone to do so but if they are adventurous enough for such an eccentric novelty, I won't stop them.

 

I agree that you can get a fairly decent experience with the billiard ball size trackball. Also something more easily for even Atari to reproduce (if they wanted to) at a price mark more acceptable for home  environment.

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Wildstar

[ledzep]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Not to throw gasoline onto the fire, but:

 

https://www.ultimarc.com/trackballs-and-spinners/

 

A number of USB controls use these (or quality-equivalent) components, both DIY and pre-built; PS5 and other USB-capable console support is pretty much universal from my understanding.  I'll at least vouch for their sturdiness and effectiveness.

 

Absolutely.  But now you're challenging modern console gamers to get off their couches and do something beyond ordering their games off of Amazon or wherever.  I think it would be worth it to try that Ultimarc option though I thought there were custom controllers already being sold with trak-balls and/or spinners on them?  Still, might be cool to assemble your own.  Expensive, but cool.  Actually, maybe not, some of those custom controllers are stupid expensive.

 

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Now, the 4.5-inch Missile Command trak-balls that weigh about 500 lbs. each...  Don't know of anyone making those in USB.  Which is a shame, because they make that game feel really frantic when there're a ton of ICBMs coming down the screen and you have to move the cursor against the weight of that behemoth to get to where they're falling before they rain radioactive death upon civilisation.

 

Totally.  But, ya, I can't imagine being that hardcore pure and making such a thing for the home.  On the other hand, the gamer cred you'd get if you did make one, hahaaha, off the charts. " Oh, you want to play arcade Missile Command?  Arcade, you say?  Hold on a minute, let me get the trak-ball.  No, not that little toy, a real trak-ball."

[Wildstar]

Wico made a trackball that plugged into the C64/VIC-20 and Atari ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/266292442499?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=266292442499&targetid=1529493987742&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9032887&poi=&campaignid=20387609897&mkgroupid=149368315897&rlsatarget=pla-1529493987742&abcId=9316960&merchantid=6296724&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjt-oBhDKARIsABVRB0wpM___-M9u6sPzQ67-AWWGqetOmuinQcUMYMPNI6FNIMpp9XgDNXYaAotkEALw_wcB )

 

and there may be an interface to plug it into usb. This may be an option as well. Depending on whether you want more buttons or not. There were options back in the day and some today.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Wildstar

[ledzep]

3 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

Yeah... I know. Some of my cost estimate there is a wild ass guess. The ball, I have a fair estimated cost but the other components and being of quality like the metal parts versus cheap plastic makes a difference and is a variable such as electronic including usb interface. I agree that you can get a fairly decent experience with the billiard ball size trackball. Also something more easily for even Atari to reproduce (if they wanted to) at a price mark more acceptable for home  environment.

 

 

 Don't forget, though, if you want the true arcade experience for Missile Command, it's not just the giant trak-ball, you also need the authentic firing buttons with the volcano cone bezels.  Or some other microswitch type button, the bigger fire buttons don't feel the same.  Nobody seems to be reproducing the Cherry or Licon buttons for those.  Of course, you know, because they're useful for restorations and new control panels (MAME).

[JPF997]

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

 

Never!?  I mean, not even just to try them out?  That seems odd for a gamer in general, to not want to try the most different things, the most options available.  I don't mean use them all the time, just to get that unique experience to compare to.  The arcade games with those special controllers are actually a little easier to operate than with just analog sticks.  Doesn't make the game easier, just a little less chance of dying because you're "doing it wrong" with the wrong controller.

 

You can't know if the ports feel a lot better or not with using analog sticks until you compare to playing those games with their correct controllers.  I'm curious, are there any "retro" arcades around you that have some of the classic games?  Usually those places are pay $20 to get it and play free for an hour or something.  Do yourself a favor and try it the "real" way, you will gain a lot of perspective about why arcade fans like me and others recommend the correct controllers and actual arcade cabinets over ports on game consoles with gamepads.  I know, for me personally, no game that was designed for a trak-ball feels the same or as smooth to play with analog sticks.  It's much harder to get your gun or cursor or whatever positioned correctly.  Same goes for spinners/paddles.  I suck at Major Havoc with the correct controller (the roller) but I'm even worse with the conversion cabinets that have a trak-ball or spinner in place of the roller.  It really does matter.  Also, if you can get to a good retro arcade, hopefully you can find games like Asteroids/Asteroids Deluxe, Space Wars, Rip-Off, Star Castle, Space Duel, that have only buttons for controls.  If only you could try Lunar Lander in the arcade to appreciate how fucking hard it is to land successfully after the first level.

 

 

Again, that's sort of what I expected.  Not picking on you, that looks almost exactly like what I probably looked like the first time I played either game.  The goddamn buttons for Asteroids make the game a bit more difficult than using a joystick (or spinner) and the asteroids moving at odd angles and much different speeds catches up to you, especially with no power-ups to protect you (hyperspace is a gamble).  As the game progresses it gets harder, especially the saucers, though the really good players figured out how to leave a few asteroids left and just hunt the saucers for points.  That seemed a bit boring to me, I wanted the asteroids around, too.

 

Do you see that there's more variety in terms of the speed of the asteroids and the saucers in the arcade version?  Everything in the recharged version moves at a snail's pace, the saucers are no threat, the game is made more for collecting power-ups than clearing out the asteroids.

 

Same goes for Centipede.  Do you agree that the feel of the arcade version is different than the 7800 version, even with the same controller you're using?  Having less side-to-side room changes things a lot, I think the bugs are slightly smaller so it's harder to get the aim right.  And that spider starts losing patience with you in the next few levels you didn't reach yet, everything gets a little faster, a little faster.  You shouldn't slice the centipede up so quickly when it's far away from you, by the time it gets down to where you are in the later levels there's like 6 things you need to try to kill and they're moving faster.  Less room side-to-side (like in the 7800 version) also makes the centipedes spend less time away from you.

 

Do you understand my complaint with the recharged version about wanting to be able to see what's going on behind the giant flashy explosions?  The better players will wait until the centipede is zig-zagging between 2 or 3 mushrooms and then blast the whole confined bug as it descends, it's a cool maneuver, especially later when everything is moving at a faster pace and there's less time to deal with everything.

Like I've said before, Atari in my country when I was growing up  was practically non existent even in the arcades ( im talking about the original Atari and it's legacy games here of course not Atari SA's games), I've never seen an original Atari arcade in person, hell I've never seen a 2600 in person (unless you count the flashback's). Gaming in my country only really started becoming mainstream with the Megadrive and especially the PS2 later on, Atari was never relevant so expecting me to have ever played any games with paddles or spinners is unrealistic, maybe that's an odd thing for a gamer in America but not here in many European countries.

 All of this talk about what is the best way to experience these classic's and what controller's should be used for each game has made me appreciate the recharged series even more, because they did something that up until now I didn't even think about and just took for granted until i really started playing the arcade games. The recharged series is optimized to play with any and all controller set ups that you can imagine, modern controllers, mouse and keyboard, arcade joysticks, spinners, paddles etc it's all been optimized to work perfectly with these games, yet another reason why people with modern system's should be encouraged to play these remake's instead of the originals, they're experience with these games will be far better ( they're also not as stiff as the original arcade version's, something about the movement of the arcade games just isn't as smooth as the recharged games for some reason and I doubt it's just the fps count ).

[ledzep]

30 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

One thing is those CRTs screens were only about the size of a TV CRT. Modern LCD screens have far more screen real-estate. So, being optically smaller (a ratio factoring distance t screen), and there was a difference in screen ratio. Added to it, the CRT fidelity and typical CRT effects like the scanlines and other artifacts of CRTs, color edge blending between adjacent pixels and such has an effect of the experience. Rolling a 2 lb.+ bowling ball, in case of Missile Command and games that used the trackball in the arcades which were not in the home consoles.... even when they had trackballs, they were lighter weight and smaller.

 

True, but when playing an arcade cabinet your face is like 2 feet away from that smaller CRT, from that perspective it's more or less the same as sitting on a couch playing on a 55" TV (or sitting at a desk playing the game on your desktop monitor).  I don't see an issue in terms of comparative gamefield size.

 

34 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

There will be differences even if the graphics were exactly the same and the music. Even the whole difference in playing standing in the crowd... that arcade experience and noise versus playing sitting as is common for console game playing.

 

When you talk about the experience between the two, it won't be the same experience. Even the arcade experience may feel different standing vs playing the arcade with a stool to sit on.

 

Agreed, that's a rabbit hole that should be avoided.  But I think it's important for these newer gamers to get that actual arcade experience at least once, if they're serious about calling themselves gamers, through attending an arcade convention (the best for experiencing that environment) or at least a retro arcade once in a while (a weak version of '80s arcades).  If that is even an option where they live.

 

But... having to stand while playing all the arcade games does have a secondary affect on how you play vs. sitting on a couch at home.  Much easier to sit.

 

36 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

Comparing 'experience' opens a pandora's box of opinions for sure.

 

No disagreement there.  I was talking about comparing experience mostly in terms of arcade game version (code) with correct controls (not necessarily 100% reproduced hardware) vs. recharged version with gamepad.  Just a gameplay comparison, not including the rest but acknowledging that the rest mattered if that could be experienced, too.  But that also includes correct horizontal/vertical gamefield orientation for the originals.  In that sense the 7800 Centipede is wrong.  Playing arcade Centipede with a gamepad instead of a trak-ball is wrong.  The bare minimum to compare the modern recharged version to the arcade original is running the arcade original (emulated, probably) and using the correct trak-ball input, same with Missile Command.  The bare minimum with arcade Asteroids would be using only buttons for the controls, no gamepad stick.  Why?  Because part of what made Asteroids a challenge was those button controls, it's easier with a joystick, makes more sense when playing (even easier with a spinner).  But the original made you use the buttons, added to the difficulty.  Gravitar with buttons is a pain, too.

[Wildstar]

7 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

 Don't forget, though, if you want the true arcade experience for Missile Command, it's not just the giant trak-ball, you also need the authentic firing buttons with the volcano cone bezels.  Or some other microswitch type button, the bigger fire buttons don't feel the same.  Nobody seems to be reproducing the Cherry or Licon buttons for those.  Of course, you know, because they're useful for restorations and new control panels (MAME).

 

I agree. The volcano cone bezels firing button caps may require custom plastic part manufacturing

 

If someone has the correct switch make model and part numbers from Cherry and Licon buttons, then I can look at possible compatible substitute or remakes. Cherry is now ZF Electronics. I can't expect absolute 100% match to originals but cap should be able to be made and look & feel like the original as close to original. The switch actuation may be slightly different but that's about as close as possible with regards to using new made part to replace a decades old part. That's the hardest part.

 

 

[ledzep]

9 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

Like I've said before, Atari in my country when I was growing up  was practically non existent even in the arcades ( im talking about the original Atari and it's legacy games here of course not Atari SA's games), I've never seen an original Atari arcade in person, hell I've never seen a 2600 in person (unless you count the flashback's). Gaming in my country only really started becoming mainstream with the Megadrive and especially the PS2 later on, Atari was never relevant so expecting me to have ever played any games with paddles or spinners is unrealistic, maybe that's an odd thing for a gamer in America but not here in many European countries.

 

All kidding aside, I feel genuinely bad for you and your sheltered friends that you don't even have the option for that.  Though now you can get the correct controllers for home use at least.  USB makes that a very easy option compared to back in the day with different consoles having unique wiring.  So the question remains, why not get the correct controllers for those times when they're needed?  One controller with a trak-ball and another with a spinner (doubling as a paddle) and enough buttons would probably be sufficient.  The bigger style that sits flat on a table so you can pretend it's an arcade control panel.

 

I suppose it must be similar to being a muscle car fan living in Europe, I mean when would you ever have seen most of those cars on the road, even in shitty condition?

 

11 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

 All of this talk about what is the best way to experience these classic's and what controller's should be used has made me appreciate the recharged series even more, because they did something that up until now I didn't even think about and just took for granted until i really started playing the arcade games. The recharged series is optimized to play with any and all controller set ups that you can imagine, modern controllers, mouse and keyboard, arcade joysticks, spinners, paddles etc it's all been optimized to work with these games, yet another reason why people with modern system's should be encouraged to play these remake's instead of the originals, they're experience with these games will be far better.

 

Easier, maybe, but not better.  "Better" is accurate, genuine.  And that means the correct controls for the arcade versions (I suppose the 7800 controller would technically be the most "correct" for 7800 Centipede, egh).  Use whatever you want for the recharged versions, of course.  Even as far back as the 2600 I always hated using the wrong controller for the arcade ports but what could I do, use the wrong ones or don't play.

[Wildstar]

28 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

True, but when playing an arcade cabinet your face is like 2 feet away from that smaller CRT, from that perspective it's more or less the same as sitting on a couch playing on a 55" TV (or sitting at a desk playing the game on your desktop monitor).  I don't see an issue in terms of comparative gamefield size.

 

 

Agreed, that's a rabbit hole that should be avoided.  But I think it's important for these newer gamers to get that actual arcade experience at least once, if they're serious about calling themselves gamers, through attending an arcade convention (the best for experiencing that environment) or at least a retro arcade once in a while (a weak version of '80s arcades).  If that is even an option where they live.

 

But... having to stand while playing all the arcade games does have a secondary affect on how you play vs. sitting on a couch at home.  Much easier to sit.

 

 

No disagreement there.  I was talking about comparing experience mostly in terms of arcade game version (code) with correct controls (not necessarily 100% reproduced hardware) vs. recharged version with gamepad.  Just a gameplay comparison, not including the rest but acknowledging that the rest mattered if that could be experienced, too.  But that also includes correct horizontal/vertical gamefield orientation for the originals.  In that sense the 7800 Centipede is wrong.  Playing arcade Centipede with a gamepad instead of a trak-ball is wrong.  The bare minimum to compare the modern recharged version to the arcade original is running the arcade original (emulated, probably) and using the correct trak-ball input, same with Missile Command.  The bare minimum with arcade Asteroids would be using only buttons for the controls, no gamepad stick.  Why?  Because part of what made Asteroids a challenge was those button controls, it's easier with a joystick, makes more sense when playing (even easier with a spinner).  But the original made you use the buttons, added to the difficulty.  Gravitar with buttons is a pain, too.

Yep. Like the difference between controlling a game by keys on the keyboard (somewhat close to controlling movement by separate buttons) versus by joystick or gamepad (stick or D-pad). Difference in difficulty in movement.

 

When we (myself and a couple others) developed Spork64 for Commodore 64. While it is officially joystick controlled from code. When testing under emulation, I didn't have a joystick or gamepad hooked up, so all controls had to be mapped to discrete keys on the keyboard. This would be like controlling movement with discrete buttons. Yes, it is indeed makes the game play of Spork64 more difficult or challenging as does with the arcade vs controlling movement with a stick. So, a comparable. 

 

Yes, we could have keyboard map to C64 keys following classic was and spacebar. Didn't need to and when emulating the joystick controls with keyboard, I may map to those keys or numeric keypad but the controls are more difficult by keyboard than the joystick.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Wildstar

[JPF997]

31 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

All kidding aside, I feel genuinely bad for you and your sheltered friends that you don't even have the option for that.  Though now you can get the correct controllers for home use at least.  USB makes that a very easy option compared to back in the day with different consoles having unique wiring.  So the question remains, why not get the correct controllers for those times when they're needed?  One controller with a trak-ball and another with a spinner (doubling as a paddle) and enough buttons would probably be sufficient.  The bigger style that sits flat on a table so you can pretend it's an arcade control panel.

 

I suppose it must be similar to being a muscle car fan living in Europe, I mean when would you ever have seen most of those cars on the road, even in shitty condition?

 

 

Easier, maybe, but not better.  "Better" is accurate, genuine.  And that means the correct controls for the arcade versions (I suppose the 7800 controller would technically be the most "correct" for 7800 Centipede, egh).  Use whatever you want for the recharged versions, of course.  Even as far back as the 2600 I always hated using the wrong controller for the arcade ports but what could I do, use the wrong ones or don't play.

Ledzep not having access to something doesn't mean that me and my friends are somehow sheltered. I myself have owned all of the following systems at different points in my life:  PS2, Gameboy advance, PS3, PS Vita, Wii, Xbox 360,DS,PS4, Xbox One, Nintendo Switch, Series X and now a PS5, just because I've never owned an Atari system doesn't mean I'm a sheltered gamer (whatever that means), the 2600+ will most likely be the first  Atari system I'll ever own and I am  very much looking forward to it.One last thing, this argument about what is an authentic experience or what is the correct way to play a certain game reminds me a lot of those old debate's that pro hardware purists and pro emulator gamer's used to have, ultimately if you're enjoying yourself playing a game the way you want to play it that's what matters most in the end.

[Wildstar]

28 minutes ago, ledzep said:

Easier, maybe, but not better.  "Better" is accurate, genuine.  And that means the correct controls for the arcade versions (I suppose the 7800 controller would technically be the most "correct" for 7800 Centipede, egh).  Use whatever you want for the recharged versions, of course.  Even as far back as the 2600 I always hated using the wrong controller for the arcade ports but what could I do, use the wrong ones or don't play.

"Better" is subjective depending on what criteria you are looking for. Easier could be "better". However, I would argue Easier might not be more authentic or accurate or most desired. That depends on the players.

 

For ledzep, it is not better because for him authentic experience is a desire in his criteria for that arcade experience. For others, what is BETTER is up each other person's criteria.

 

For the authentic accurate experience of an arcade original really needs to be best experienced with the original arcade system or accurate reproduction of the arcade and controls. It comes down to criteria.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Wildstar

[ledzep]

2 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

Ledzep not having access to something doesn't mean that me and my friends are somehow sheltered. I myself have owned all of the following systems at different points in my life:  PS2, Gameboy advance, PS3, PS Vita, Wii, Xbox 360 ,PS4, Xbox One, Nintendo Switch, Series X and now a PS5, just because I've never owned an Atari system doesn't mean I'm a sheltered gamer (whatever that means), the 2600+ will most likely be the first  Atari system I'll ever own and I am  very much looking forward to it.One last thing this argument about what is an authentic experience reminds me a lot of those old debate's that people had between hardware purists and pro emulator gamer's, ultimately if you're enjoying yourself playing a game the way you want to play it that's what matters most in the end.

 

Sheltered in terms of access to that type of experience (real arcades in the '80s), that's whatever that means.  Like I said, similar to Europeans who love muscle cars, they never had the experience like here where (at least back in the '70s and '80s) you could see those cars all over the place.  Many in beaten condition, but still diamonds in the rough (and cheap!!) along with many in great condition.  Man, I miss those sounds.  Now the only way I can get to seem a lot in one place is a classic car show (there are a few great ones in the greater L.A./O.C. area each year).

 

Yes, that's what matters most, enjoyment.  That's not what matters most when doing a specific comparison, though.  You've done the best you can with what's available to you right now, I appreciate those video captures of you playing the arcade versions of the recharged games.  I was hoping you'd be able to really feel the difference in gameplay but missing the correct controls makes the comparison less accurate.  Obviously, playing actual arcade cabinets is the gold standard but no way you can pull that off where you are.  But it is possible for you to get USB trak-balls and/or spinners.  I have no idea if that standard works (directly or with an adapter) with a PS5, though.  It's worth the effort, believe me, as soon as you get the right control scheme you see why fans of the originals really love those games.  Or why the games were so challenging.

 

Defender is another example, that's a very unique control scheme (2-way joystick with reverse, thrust buttons and then the weapons buttons and hyperspace).

 

 

Ain't no gamepad pulling that off, hahahaa.

[ledzep]

14 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

"Better" is subjective depending on what criteria you are looking for. Easier could be "better". However, I would argue Easier might not be more authentic or accurate or most desired. That depends on the players.

 

For ledzep, it is not better because for him authentic experience is a desire in his criteria for that arcade experience. For others, what is BETTER is up each other person's criteria.

 

For the authentic accurate experience of an arcade original really needs to be best experienced with the original arcade system or accurate reproduction of the arcade and controls. It comes down to criteria.

 

Ya, I was only talking "better" in terms of reproducing the arcade versions.  Can't get to an original cabinet (or accurate MAME cab)?  At least get the right controllers, then, to play a decent emulation.

 

Easier is easier, but who wants that when it comes to being challenged?  When I play pick-up basketball games I much prefer playing guys who are at least a little better than I am, that makes me work harder and appreciate scoring on them/defending them.  And I get better.  Easier is playing against guys who don't play basketball or who aren't that good or who are kids.  Sure, I'll look like Kobe Bryant against them but where's the fun in that?  I scored the most!!  Well, ya, how could you not against those clowns?

 

If it's easy it's not a challenge, it's just going through the motions, winning is a foregone conclusion.  I want it to be a real accomplishment that I could play authentic Missile Command (with that goddamn giant trak-ball) for longer than 10 minutes.  Or other hard arcade games.  Don't make it easier for me!  What's the point, then?  The first time I got to the next (red) level in Tempest I felt like some kind of hero... for like 5 minutes until I saw someone else breezing through the yellow levels, hahaaha.

[Wildstar]

6 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

Ya, I was only talking "better" in terms of reproducing the arcade versions.  Can't get to an original cabinet (or accurate MAME cab)?  At least get the right controllers, then, to play a decent emulation.

 

Easier is easier, but who wants that when it comes to being challenged?  When I play pick-up basketball games I much prefer playing guys who are at least a little better than I am, that makes me work harder and appreciate scoring on them/defending them.  And I get better.  Easier is playing against guys who don't play basketball or who aren't that good or who are kids.  Sure, I'll look like Kobe Bryant against them but where's the fun in that?  I scored the most!!  Well, ya, how could you not against those clowns?

 

If it's easy it's not a challenge, it's just going through the motions, winning is a foregone conclusion.  I want it to be a real accomplishment that I could play authentic Missile Command (with that goddamn giant trak-ball) for longer than 10 minutes.  Or other hard arcade games.  Don't make it easier for me!  What's the point, then?  The first time I got to the next (red) level in Tempest I felt like some kind of hero... for like 5 minutes until I saw someone else breezing through the yellow levels, hahaaha.

Easy to learn, hard (difficult or CHALLENGING) to master. That's a core ethos of classic Atari and arcades... especially given the attribution of that phrase to Nolan Bushnell.

 

That is an essential ethos that should not be forgotten in the recharged games as well as new games. 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Wildstar

[ledzep]

2 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

Easy to learn, hard (difficult or CHALLENGING) to master. That's a core ethos of classic Atari and arcades... especially given the attribution of that phrase to Nolan Bushnell.

 

 

True, I think you could approach any Atari game in the arcades (I guess also with the 2600 and 5200) and figure out what to do and actually clear a level or two competently.  But then the next levels would start putting the screws to you.  After than some of those games would really come at you, others were a slower boil to good luck getting past this.  But it was a badge of honor to say you lasted a while playing at the hard levels, whether it was Atari or some other company's game.  Williams was known for making hard games.

 

There's a point in Star Trek: Strategic Operations Simulator where at the beginning of each level the Klingon ships almost immediately turn white and just home in on you.  At that point it's almost impossible to last long when it's 8 on 1 or whatever.  But it can be done.  Don't ask me how, though, I rarely got that far, hahaaha.

[Wildstar]

3 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

True, I think you could approach any Atari game in the arcades (I guess also with the 2600 and 5200) and figure out what to do and actually clear a level or two competently.  But then the next levels would start putting the screws to you.  After than some of those games would really come at you, others were a slower boil to good luck getting past this.  But it was a badge of honor to say you lasted a while playing at the hard levels, whether it was Atari or some other company's game.  Williams was known for making hard games.

 

There's a point in Star Trek: Strategic Operations Simulator where at the beginning of each level the Klingon ships almost immediately turn white and just home in on you.  At that point it's almost impossible to last long when it's 8 on 1 or whatever.  But it can be done.  Don't ask me how, though, I rarely got that far, hahaaha.

Likewise, this would be the case for the Spork game when remade... although I'll expand upon it. The original was put together in a month and a half, basically. Part of the plan for basically the remake of it on newer platforms aside from enhance graphics and supporting use of Tilt Five and use of wand, the ideal setup, but it is also revised back story details, partly to distinguish it from the original Spork64 but it would be also adding to it. Additional mutant vegetables and also regular vegetables and such which would add to the challenge yet, game play controls will be easy to learn and would have some gradual increase in difficulty. 

 

The thing you don't want to do is sock it to the player at impossible level of difficulty right at the beginning. You start of easy but gradually increase in difficulty. Eventually it will be a challenge. 

 

 

[ledzep]

55 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

Likewise, this would be the case for the Spork game when remade... although I'll expand upon it. The original was put together in a month and a half, basically. Part of the plan for basically the remake of it on newer platforms aside from enhance graphics and supporting use of Tilt Five and use of wand, the ideal setup, but it is also revised back story details, partly to distinguish it from the original Spork64 but it would be also adding to it. Additional mutant vegetables and also regular vegetables and such which would add to the challenge yet, game play controls will be easy to learn and would have some gradual increase in difficulty. 

 

Revenge Of The Spork?  Wrath Of Spork?  Millispork?  Sounds interesting, especially with a specific controller that is more tuned to the gameplay than just a gamepad.  You should make a recharged version with bad music and have the wand leave a trail of fantastic power-ups in its wake whenever it's moved.

 

57 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

The thing you don't want to do is sock it to the player at impossible level of difficulty right at the beginning. You start of easy but gradually increase in difficulty. Eventually it will be a challenge. 

 

Ha, tell that to Williams.  I'm exaggerating but those games knew how to kick my teeth in back in the day.  Still, I welcomed not being treated like a child by their games.  Get some!  Ow, fuck, game over already?  Did I even do that right?

[Wildstar]

25 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

Revenge Of The Spork?  Wrath Of Spork?  Millispork?  Sounds interesting, especially with a specific controller that is more tuned to the gameplay than just a gamepad.  You should make a recharged version with bad music and have the wand leave a trail of fantastic power-ups in its wake whenever it's moved.

 

 

Ha, tell that to Williams.  I'm exaggerating but those games knew how to kick my teeth in back in the day.  Still, I welcomed not being treated like a child by their games.  Get some!  Ow, fuck, game over already?  Did I even do that right?

First one being worked on is titled "Spork! Attack of the Mutant Vegetables" but further sequels may have some variation of the subtitle part of the title or something. 

 

If a recharged version were made, it certainly would be made a little later. 

 

As for Williams, I could but that would be decades after the fact. I would consider and employ a setting for difficulty level which would Obviously have different initial level of difficulty and higher maximum difficulty level.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Wildstar

[ledzep]

2 minutes ago, Wildstar said:

As for Williams, I could but that would be decades after the fact. I would consider and employ a setting for difficulty level which would Obviously have different initial level of difficulty and higher maximum difficulty level.

 

 

Hahahaa, I wasn't advocating treating players like punching bags the way Williams did, just saying that there are masochists out there who love an almost impossible video game challenge, maybe after playing too many easy (for them) regular games.  I mean, I wanted to be good enough at those games but goddamn, what a steep learning curve.  Atari seemed to be the right speed for me, same with Midway and Sega/Gremlin.

 

Another aspect of the arcade experience is that you don't (unless you own the arcade) have the luxury of spending hours on one game to master it, you usually have to make way for the next guy with a quarter on the marque once you die in humiliating fashion.  And then watch that guy breeze past the spot that wiped you out.  Much different than sitting on the couch by yourself, no crowd, no pressure, have all your favorite snacks, pause button, very comfortable.  I suppose in that sense you could make the modern console games much harder since the player can just restart again and again (no loss of dozens of quarters).  At least as an option.  But not so hard that the player gets disillusioned immediately and gives up.

[Wildstar]

11 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

Hahahaa, I wasn't advocating treating players like punching bags the way Williams did, just saying that there are masochists out there who love an almost impossible video game challenge, maybe after playing too many easy (for them) regular games.  I mean, I wanted to be good enough at those games but goddamn, what a steep learning curve.  Atari seemed to be the right speed for me, same with Midway and Sega/Gremlin.

 

Another aspect of the arcade experience is that you don't (unless you own the arcade) have the luxury of spending hours on one game to master it, you usually have to make way for the next guy with a quarter on the marque once you die in humiliating fashion.  And then watch that guy breeze past the spot that wiped you out.  Much different than sitting on the couch by yourself, no crowd, no pressure, have all your favorite snacks, pause button, very comfortable.  I suppose in that sense you could make the modern console games much harder since the player can just restart again and again (no loss of dozens of quarters).  At least as an option.  But not so hard that the player gets disillusioned immediately and gives up.

 

Absolutely agree. Which is what I meant. Games have to be ultimately winnable. Like you said which is in-line of what I am thinking. I agree that the initial difficulty level of any difficulty level setting starts relatively easy compared to the highest game level but may start at different levels of difficulty but not so hard it just pisses off the player and they scream out "That *bleep*ing game is *bleep*ed up" then want refund. Game has to have sensible levels of difficulty starting and progressively get more difficult as the levels go up.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Wildstar

[MrBeefy]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:52 PM, Giles N said:

Unfortunately for gaming-enthusiasts and the homebrew(?) community, I think Nintendo want deliberately to have full control over anything Mario they themselves release, like from the first line of code to release.

This is the sort of area of gaming where Atari could compete by being different, and sort-of team-up with homebrewers to make Atari more relevant to those who are the most into it: the retro-core, - and through that - reach out to newer generations who have been introduced to retrogames through ios, android or steam newly produced retro-styled games.

Through two such lines, modern retrostyled games (but improved more than Recharged) + a continual line-up of releases of new games for their old systems, they can become relevant for that and through that segment of gamers.

 

If it’s Mario homebrewed for C64, - and if official release is what’s wanted, better go back and make an Atari-franchise out of it - reprogram it as an Atari-game, change it enough to be untouchable, and ask if they’re interested in having it on their VCS.

 

I feel like AA being bought by Atarinwas them in essence working with homebrewers.

 

Nintnedo doesn't need homebrewers. 

On 9/29/2023 at 6:44 AM, ledzep said:

I'll tell you what, I feel bad for younger arcade game fans who never got the chance to play those games when they were new in actual arcades.  At home on an emulator or modern console is not the same.

My kid's a gaming racist. So he's played it as meant to be.

[+x=usr(1536)]

17 hours ago, Wildstar said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165992198365

Oh, cool.  Thanks for pointing that out; I had no idea the mechanical portion was being remade.  Been out of the arcade world (in any sort of serious way) for a few years, so good to see that stuff like this is being homebrewed.

17 hours ago, Wildstar said:

A tabletop missile command controller with actual candlepin bowling ball used (what was used in the arcade unit), inside a sturdy box is doable and can be made to be able to plug into a USB port and played with authentic feel as the arcade game and be the closest you get to playing the actual arcade game in the exact original arcade system.

Definitely.   And, in theory, the optical section in the Ultimarc USB trackball should be adaptable to the 4.5" ball relatively easily, though changes to the opto wheels would probably be necessary in order to account for the change in gearing from the larger ball.  Having something switch-selectable could also be a possibility, perhaps by slowing sample rate at the optosensors; this would be more or less analogous to how Atari did it in the original game with DIP switches.

 

I've owned three Missile Command machines: two uprights and a cocktail.  The cocktail ended up being the short-termer of the lot, because playing the game with the 3" trackball just felt wrong.  Without the heft of the larger ball, it ended up feeling a lot like Centipede - a good game in its own right, but not how I wanted Missile Command to play.

[Razzie.P]

1 hour ago, MrBeefy said:

I feel like AA being bought by Atarinwas them in essence working with homebrewers.

 

Nintnedo doesn't need homebrewers. 

My kid's a gaming racist. So he's played it as meant to be.

Get that kid a step stool.

 

 

I can remember being young/small enough to need to stand on something.  Usually chair or milk crate to play arcade game.  Xevious specially comes to mind the most vividly.

 

Now I'm 6'4" and have the opposite problem.  Have to stoop over and it hurts the ol' back after a bit.

 

 

 

[Zoyous]

12 hours ago, Wildstar said:

Game has to have sensible levels of difficulty starting and progressively get more difficult as the levels go up.

There's one other aspect to the difficulty increase... it should have points where it actually gets a little easier briefly along the way. So if you visualize the increasing difficulty as a line graph going upward, it has kind of a sawtooth profile along the way. That's actually something Eugene Jarvis has said about difficulty, although I am not good enough at Defender and Robotron to figure out if he actually implemented that idea in those games or just figured that out in later years. 😅

 

OT, I currently prefer the Recharged games that I've played. Aesthetically they are kind of the fulfillment of the dream that was represented by the illustration art that decorated and promoted those games back in the day. Now that games can look like pretty much anything, I really enjoy seeing retro design mixed with lighting and effects that never could have been possible previously. But having said that, I do still go back and play the original games as well because they're classics in their own right. It's kind of like enjoying current music that's strongly influenced by old styles, and then also enjoying the original raw stripped down blues that inspired the current artists.